Namibia: Genocide and the Second Reich
A hundred years ago, three quarters of the Herero people of the German colony of Namibia were killed, many in concentration camps.
Today, the descendants of the survivors are seeking reparations from the German government. This film tells for the first time this forgotten story and its links to German racial theories.
Described by the BBC as the story of Germany's forgotten genocide. This powerful documentary by David Adetayo Olusoga took a sensitive and uncompromising look at the tragic circumstances leading to the massacre of three quarters of the Namibia population in German concentration camps built in Africa.
The programme included graphic reconstructions and did not shirk from showing disturbing scenes which revealed the savagery of european colonial ideology put into practise.
The documentary also showed the 2004 footage of Germany's ambassador to Namibia expressing regret for their killing of thousands of Namibia's Hereros during the colonial era. Unsurprisingly, the Germans refused to agree to the justifiable calls for reparations.
The programme also explored the current call for land reforms where most of Namibia's commercial land is still owned by european farmers who make up 6 percent of the country's population of 1.8 million.
Throughout it included interviews and powerful testimony from African survivors, descendants and reparation movement representatives thus making this a compelling programme which both educated the audience whilst treating the sensitive subject matter with the respect it deserved.
I am 72 years old and have never heard of this. Man's inhumanity to man is an awful thing...
@ Baldwin Thecrusader, wrt Eugenics let us not leave out Sir Charles Darwin, Sir Francis Galton, Friedrich Blumenbach, Carl Linnaeus, Margret Sanger, and that is just scratching the surface. let us not forget all the 'Family planning" programmes sponsored by various governments to support them African e.g. the Canadian government 'donating' to Africa 250 million for reproduction purposes...
Ps. You may want to re-check the whole title of the “Origin of Species”…
@ urban deadite, wrt to the Congo how we miss ol' King Leopold a very kind man (and country).
@ leanmv, yes History is written by the victors. For the conquered, that statement should tell you what you should be reading, else you end up believing lies.
I guess the Jews should not have received reparations? or the Germans should not have had to pay any reparation after the 1st world war? Are we being selective with reparations?
@ Matej "Problem isnt in white race. And that is pretty racist point of view from you." A racist will always call you a racist when you identify their racism.
And the my most important point wrt this documentary is directed to the AFRICANS, do not, and I repeat, do not, bother debating any European on such issues as the African Holocaust, you should raise the awareness of any and every African as to the nature of the European.
To you African the question is, if you see track hurtling down the street crushing and killing all in its way, would you stand in front of it, try stop the driver to reason and be logical?? NO, you WARN your people that there is mad person behind the wheel and do what you have to defend yourself.
Ah, the German love affair with eugenics and genocide...
Wow, love these comments. I'm not going to watch it, came here by accident; but just finished watching "Adolf Hitler - The Greatest Story Never Told", which shows everything we know/have been told about Hitler is a LIE; another duping uncovered. I'm truly ecstatic to see these comments confirming we are really waking up to Truth. Trust no govt. Govts must be treated like junk yard dogs and no better.
There will be very rough times when we clash with govt but I am more certain than ever we will overcome and the future will be better than ever for our children. God bless America!
oh, check this out: Thegreateststorynevertold dot tv. it's a mind blower.
remember, we can be lied to effectively by anyone, especially those who have an interest in telling us what they want us to believe....
I do not trust most..... I do my own thinking.. and I do deep research to back it up...
Be careful... propaganda and psychology are very effective... and if you don't conform you can be eliminated... like Hitler did and the current liar in DC is planning for most of us... unless of course we buy his bull****
History is written by the victors... SAY NO MORE
Leanmv, you are quite right. The African proverbs says, "Until the lion tells his side of the story of being hunted, History
Will always glorify the Hunter." Most of the people who write the history of Africa, including that of peace and conflict, genocide, slavery, are always non-Africans. When the indigenous African writes to tell the history from his or side side in an article or book form, the African's article or book, he or she is shouted down and publication rejected, unless, of course when he or she is told to remove some portions which are revealing the truth of pervert behaviour non-Africans did to the African people. And we all know who controls all these Publishing houses.
The red dyed people (women) displayed a couple of times in this documentary are no Herero, but Himba, who live mainly in the north of Namibia ... if one makes a documentary about this subject, then please use footage of the Herero people!
I dont know of one Empire in History that has not done some form of Genocide including a lot of African nations too, Shaka Zulu (one of the worlds top Military commanders) did not carve an empire by throwing flowers around nor did the great fortress builders of Zimbabwe or Jenna.
What about what the Bantu are doing to the Mbuti/Baka /Aka peoples in the Congo??..one of the worst cases of genocide and slavery/rape/cannabalism as a scare tactic in Human History and its still going on.
A lot of peoples dont have written language in the past so its all kinda one sided.
All of this is wrong just wish people would see its a human condition that needs addressing and it is not just 'white' countries who have a Barbaric and Inhuman past.
One more thing the Slavic peoples have been enslaved more and for longer than anywhere in the world yet never hear about them or about the millions of white slaves in various North African and Ottoman Empires whose treatment was just as awful as African slaves.
What about all those Native African slavers that got stinking rich? there were thousands of them and they were a massive part of the equation, in fact when slavery was abolished several countries had too go to war against them they were so rich and powerful and would not stop slaving.
The Japanese in most of Asia in the 30-40's did horrific genocide and concentration camps or more horrific than the nazis also the sex slaves (so called comfort women) but they 'got' away with it....so much wrong not just the terrible African slave trade.
Slavery is still a BIG PROBLEM today in 2012.
Colours are not bad but people are.
All Slavery and Genocide done by ANY people of the World is wrong.
It is a shame that this is a repeated pattern through Human History for one excuse or another from all corners of Earth....
ok,ok....you are right, no group has a monopoly on barbaric behavior or savagery, but you have to admit that many people of European descent (not all) proclaim themselves to be more civilized than other races. By the way you forgot about WWI and WWII both wars
were Eropeans murdering other Europeans....
those were MADMEN murdering human beings.... got it?
Mad Men was a good show.. got it?
While I agree with your general premise, that white people are not the sole perpertators of violence in either the modern, or pre modern worlds, judging by your post I feel you may have misjudged why it is seen as so shocking that these events have taken place.
Throughout the colonial period, and even way before, white Europeans were always protrayed as the civilised race. Mass murder and brutal treatment of natives was always justified as necessary intervention in order to enable the civilising misssion to go ahead. The British action during the Indian Mutiny is a the prime example of this, as well as countless conflicts in Africa.
These conflicts were done in the name of the Christianising and civilising mission, so was always protrayed as the righteous path and therefore, no one seemed to question this action, at least, not loud enough to challeneg the general consensus. This was inspite of the inherent contradictions that were taking place here. It has only been in the last 130 or so years, (incidently when the first wave of feminism began) when white people started vehemently questioning the contemporary idea of civilisation.
Paradoxically, this also marked the most violent century the world has ever seen. You seem fairly historically informed so I will not list everyhting that happened for your benefit, but the idea that white European's were guilty of such a large proportion of the violence is completely at odds with this ideals of European civilisation that is so ingranied into the mind and representation of Europe. Like all cultures, we have a lot to answer for. We also have to acknowledge that we are just as violent, and in many cases, more violent, than most!
Eloquently explained.
Africans are hard to finish! Every wealth and power hungry monster has tried to eliminate Africans, but they live on. God must have made us uniquely strong but above all, God has not allowed our extermination. Germans and all other colonialists are equally guilty of the sin of attempting to eliminate God by their actions wherever they extended their empires. But when i look at the Namibian case; I just wonder how evil these Germans were!
Some people always say there are two topics that evoke such a strong negative emotion that it is impossible to reach any conclusive agreement... those topics being government and religion. I believe there is a third... race.
Typical BBC report, a lot of emotional music and very Anti-German. Fails to mention that Nambia receives approx. 14 Mill. Euros funds pa.. That might be the reason why reparation are out of the question (which would go to the Hereros only).
And of course we still have to struggle with our history today. How could it be otherwise. Thanks for the hint BBC.
BTW, the scientific racist movement at that time was not limited to Germany, say hello to the Brits and the US.
You're right. Eugenics actually started in the U.S. Starting in the asylums and towards against those who were deemed abnormal... IE people with disabilities. The Nazis took the ideas from the top Eugenic scientists of the US and made it their principle way of life. By the way, the US and Britain had to pay up too. :) Germany is made a big deal of this due to the extent they took.
How is this any dif. that what America has done to the Native Americans? Drive them into worthless lands,starve them and murder them to take there land. Lets not act like Germany is the only "bad guy" that takes what is not theres.
I don't think anyone is acting like Germany is the only 'bad guy'. They would have to be delusional and intellectually dishonest to do that. The emphasis is that this genocide, like the Armenian genocide, is denied and swept under the table.
This is different from the genocide of the Native Americans, though no more or less horrible. No one of any repute denies what happened to the Native Americans. It is something that is acknowledged and usually discussed in higher education (Or at least it was in my university). And although the track record of helping the victims is horrible and could certainly be improved on, the truth of the Europeans moving to America, and consequentially, the Trail of Tears, payment for scalps, the Boarding Schools, the Reservations, etc., is common knowledge to anyone willing to do some extra research outside of what they are taught in grade school.
It is possible to condemn what one country has done and view it as horrible, whilst remembering that no country is innocent. By pointing a finger at America and saying, 'But they did it too!!' you are doing a disservice to the victims of this particular genocide. Let them have their suffering, let them have their moment of acknowledgement, and let their perpetrators feel shame for their actions.
Sorry to tell you, but this genocide is in no way denied or swept under the table in Germany! There are tv-documentaries on prime-time, you learn about it in school and when you go to a larger bookstore you will find a section on German colonialism and there you will find books dedicaded only to the Herero. So do not compare how Germans talk and think about this genocide with how the Turkish (not) talk about killing the Armenians, especially since in Turkey it's illegal to actually mention it while in Germany you can discuss the topic freely.
While this comment was made two years ago and I haven't revisited this topic since, I don't think I was accusing the Germans of anything specifically. I wouldn't be presumptuous enough to assume I know what you're taught in schools or what is in your bookstores. I was addressing the claim made by the documentary -- whether you agree with them or not -- that the genocide is debated. And 'swept under the table' doesn't necessarily mean that no one talks or learns about it. Not doing anything for reparation is sweeping it under the table; it is ignoring the greater issue. Now, like I said, my comment was made two years ago and I don't know if that has changed at all since then (or, even, since whenever the documentary was filmed).
And I am well aware of the differences between this genocide and the Armenian genocide. I heavily researched the Armenian genocide for my Master's thesis. I know that it is illegal to talk about it in Turkey; I know what happens to those who do so. The comment I made was, again, not aimed specifically at Germans. It was more a worldwide, general accusation. Other countries not teaching about it or doing anything to help are just as much of a problem. I'm not German, so I assume my schools didn't think this was important enough to teach about. That was a mistake. Others can be just as guilty of 'sweeping it under the table' as anyone else. It's not an issue that is only affiliated with the perpetrators.
My comments weren't meant to be a sweeping statement against the Germans, and I apologise if it came across that way.
i have a dream.....to put in reality....going to Namibia to explore the Namib desert and the extending Kalahari desert and to look eyes in eyes in the faces of the inhabitants of this beautiful country.
az
Thanks for a well researched documentary. These, and many other issues are still be worked through by me and my fellow citizens.
First, as for compensation, the German government and the Namibian government have a very good relationship today as do the people of both nations. In fact, most of the funds available to black farmers come from German assistance. (I am sitting in Düsseldorf, Germany as I write this.)
Secondly, we have a policy of national reconciliation which still makes us a model for other countries on how people can, and should, live together.
Third, today my daughter is the Junior Mayor of Swakopmund.
Lastly, and unfortunately a question that will be asked, I am not white or German in origin. I am a coloured and was the person who raised the flag over Windhoek the first morning on Independence.
Oh, and I am the Director of the Otjimbingwe Research Centre.
German of world war 1 had great respect for their african warriors said to see people change sometimes
@Curser
Problem isnt in white race. And that is pretty racist point of view from you. Problem is in people overall. All people act that way. Europeans were just more advanced in tech so they have enslaved africa south america etc.
But this is ?new? history from which we have writen doucuments and pictures.
What about Tatar invasion in Europe, or Mongol invasion? Or Turks? So many pillages, killings, destroyed futures.
Or , what about ethnic cleansning between Idia and pakistan? Nobody talk about that. Or tibet, or boxer rebellion.
So, you can see that there are a lot more examples of hate between people.
From our past we can try to learn not to make same mistakes but i think humanity is failing doing that.
The ethnic troubles in India was caused by the Partition (a line a lawyer in london drew across the country pretty much) which was a tactic of dividing the nation from colonialists.
Very good point.
One of these days, people will stop letting wealthy, power-mad, elitist f*cks control them. It is never "the people" who want to start wars, invade other lands or enslave other types of people. It's always someone with power and wealth who wants even more. They subjugate whatever group of people they can find to lead and then they convince them to "hate" some other group.
That's what the U.S. government is doing to us here... making us fear and hate the "Islamic terrorists". Just like the leaders of the Islamic fundamentalists work to make their people hate us.
In the end, the real people of the world... not the leaders... just want peace and a reasonably safe environment in which to live their lives and raise their children. It's the Obama's and the Bush's, and the Queens, and the other "leaders" around the world who make us hate one another.
One of these days the people will stop arguing over capitalism vs. communism, right vs. left, west vs. east, etc. ... and wake up and realize that it is... and always has been...
the people vs. their power-mad rulers.
Matej, you are totally confused, this was not about "hate," but the taking of another people's land by the standard methods used by Europeans around the world. To compare this with the ancient history of the Mongols, who did not enslave, colonize, place in concentration camps/"reservations," and attempt to completely wipe from the face of the earth shows severe ignorance on your part.
'but the taking of another people's land by the standard methods used by Europeans around the world'
One of the greatest military minds in History was a chap called Shaka Zulu and all the other tribes lands he took he did not do by giving people flowers.
The empires of Zimbabwe and Jenna did the same, oh and Mali too name a few.
All Empires from the Aztecs to Polynesians to Chinese to Zulu to English to American all have done bad things, it is Historically inaccurate to keep going on as if only white people have done bad things and land grabs.
Erm actually the Mongols did systematic Annihilation of lots of people and Cities, in fact the devastation was so big in some parts of the world and to some Cities that hardly anyone lives in some places even to this day and they did colonize if you did not like the few Mongols in power you got destroyed.
Urban deadlite. You are right. Shaka Zulu invaded people around him, but did not take land their land away from them. The conquered became part of his people, increasing his empire. The conquered tilled their same gardens, tended their cattle, maintained their homes, language, names, customs and culture within their environments.
When the British, Germans, Spaniards, Portuguese came into Africa, the story was different. They began to believe that the African were not worth that land but themselves. Hence the Scramble for Africa. They took the African's land with impunity and divided it among themselves without regard to chieftainship, ethnicity, language culture, customs etc. They then planted tea, coffee, tobacco, and removed all the subsistence food the indigenous people grew. They introduced slave labor on the lands, changed the people's languages and names into British, French, Spanish and Portuguese, and so forth. They then introduced the system of assimilado, or the best African was the one who dressed like a European, i.e. Jacket and tie. They considered African names, dances etc as evil and heathen; they introduced new ways of conflict resolution -- prisons, etc, something that the Africans never had before. Worst of all, they with the slave labour on the land, the raw material was sent to Britain or France for manufacture. The surplus was sent back to the colonies and sold at very exorbitant prices, creating an atmosphere that when an African was wearing a shirt made out of his own cotton and sweat, but manufactured in Britain he felt very superior! But if that same shirt was manufactured in his own backyard, he would look down upon it as inferior. The same with tea, coffee, chocolate, a la Cadbury's. For instance Ghana as of now produces a lot of cocoa, but there is no cocoa factory in Ghana. Only top people can afford Cardbury chocolate in Ghana!!
Moreover, the British, French, Spanish, etc, imposed their laws and labelled all African culture and customs and laws as inferior.
This has been done by the Western system over the African systems.
I for one, don't hate white people, but am against the Western system way of doing things when it comes to Africans. Each time an African leader rises up through very fair and democratic elections, and the leader is uplifting his country well towards progress and development, but does not like to follow the dictates of the Western system. They will soon begin labeling that leader as corrupt, and calling for regime change, and be paying some opposition under the table to topple that leaders. In other words, the Western system does not want to see a progressive leader in Africa whose interest is in his or her people, but not in that of the West.
@Jeigh
Africans never migrated....
“The Journey of Man” is a another big lie, another big fabrication of white man to justify economic globalization...
@ curser Your type of racism means that even if the whites disappear there will be some one else to hate. If the world is to have a better future then it's past, please rethink your attitudes. It can only lead to more of the horror we have seen for thousands of years; even before the whites.
Thank you Jack. I couldn't agree more...
Jack, because Curser points to a fact, a common practice of re-writing history in order to obliterate truth, you say that he is racist, rather than realizing that it was the racist and it is the racist who not only have the racial prejudice, but the power to re-write history. Curser does not have an "attitude," but rather a very sharp point, one which you allowed to expose your own dishonesty or in ability to comprehend anything sharper than a fairy tale.
@ Malcolm
The archaeological and genetic record seems to indicate that "The Journey of Man" depicts human history fairly accurately. However, its accuracy does not, in any way, justify the subjugation of one group over another. There is no justification for this type of behavior, not then, not today, not ever....period. What the European nations did in Africa is an abomination.
The "white man" teaches that history in all its schools. What they teach is superficially true. However this history is glamorized and the plight of the subjugated peoples are ignored or trivialized. Anyone, of any intellect can read these histories and realize that they are reading a clean up of history. Basically true, but misleading.
Racism is not only applied to the winner of a struggle. It applies to anyone who uses race as a means to justify his own feelings of hatred and superiority. A victim who falls prey to blind hatred, can use his victimization as a personal right to retribution. This becomes the next round of violent abuse and racial tension. Curser's post does indicate anger and malice towards another race. His hatred is based on fact. The steps to racial retributions and atrocities can be very small and be taken quite quickly when that hatred runs out of control.
I do not think that I am being dishonest nor a lack of comprehension. I am just asking that people do not direct hatred towards someone of another race. I do not think that this is a terrible thing to ask.
The White race ain't human but vampire, blood suckers, they even feed their offspring's with Innocent blood. until white race exits genocides shall prevail and the planet earth shall always suffer...............
You're trippin'...and, the 'white race' isn't going anywhere...
@clix
*i accidently hit "add comment to soon"*
but on the issue of epigenetics... i would have to say its possible.
There is alot of latent agression in western society. like the direct eye contact someone mentioned earlier. its posible that that eye shape could have something to do with it.
I really cannot understand why someone would say reparations are not due in this instance. If the German government refuses the pay the Namibians the 2 million they ask for then shouldn't the Nambibians have the right to simply take their land back from the European settlers like what happened in Zimbawe? there is no reason why 50% of the good land in Namibia should be owned by a minority group. It would be better for the Germans to pay the Namibians the money they asked for so that they can legally buy the land for a fair price....
@clix
i certainly hope its not caused by genetics. i have always thought atrocities like this are the result of Charles Dawin's theory on evolution. His theorys gave people 'justification' to belive that they were somehow evolutionary superior than each other. they led to eugenics and genocide and i think that deep down alot of people still apply "the orign of species" to humans.
but anyway do you think its genitic?
@williamstoni
Who is fighting over Jesus today? I thought we're fighting over oil and other vital resources.
Also, curiously (not judgmentally), how can you reconcile proud service in the military and progressivism? Progressive thought assumes the concept of armed struggle is an antiquated way of resolving conflicts, if not an aberrant one. What do you find to be proud of your military service? How do you think the military you served in cannot be used in the manner the German Reich used its military?
@Will
This discussion is not over. You can still jump in.
Yes, it is unfortunate that such discussions have to deteriorate to name calling at times. But, that's the nature of the medium.
So, what say you? Do you agree that there are genetic or at least epigenetic variations among humans that predispose them for certain type of aberrant behavior similar to the Germans during the 2nd and 3rd Reich?
Definitions of reparation on the Web:
• compensation (given or received) for an insult or injury; "an act for which there is no reparation"
• (usually plural) compensation exacted from a defeated nation by the victors; "Germany was unable to pay the reparations demanded after World War I"
• repair: the act of putting something in working order again
• something done or paid in expiation of a wrong; "how can I make amends"
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
• In jurisprudence, reparation is replenishment of a previously inflicted loss by the criminal to the victim. Monetary restitution is a common form of reparation. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparation_(legal)
In my humble opinion, I believe reparations are a controversial topic because there are many ways to describe this “concept” - as any quick web search will prove.
As a woman who served proudly in the U.S. Marine Corps for over eight years before being discharged honorably under medical conditions, I perceive the concept of reparations as a method of acknowledging past transgressions AND as an apology to a person/ people who have been victimized.
In essence: Does saying, “I’m sorry” suffice for theft, rape, torture, and mass genocide? When reparations are not awarded to victims, it seems to me that is exactly what we are saying… ‘it’ll be alright… time heals all wounds…”
In my opinion, time does not heal all wounds… at least, not by our standards! We are still fighting over Jesus’ death… and, that occurred over two thousand years ago!
It seems to me that our world will continuously suffer simply we are too weak to apologize with sincerity… because we cannot admit when we are wrong.
Our race (meaning human) will never heal… and, the vicious cycle of hurt will continue until we concede to our past… all of it… especially the painful periods… it is the only solution for a SHARED, healthy future!
There is absolutely no harm in repaying what is owed… It is the HUMAN thing to do!
Btw… after watching this documentary, I realized where Eisenhower borrowed the idea of the prison industrial complex from… the Germans!
that said... BE PROGRESSIVE... BE KIND!
@clix @jeigh @Menelik1&2 Wow...that was a damn good arguement. It's a little unclear why you guys were arguing in the first place, as you seemed to agree on the most fundamental concepts discussed (until u started making personal attacks). But I read the whole thing and I definatly learned a lot. I wish I could have joined in! Haha
@Jeigh
You're really not good at guessing. :-)
The word Selam is an Amharic equivalent of the Arabic Salaam and the Hebrew Shalom. It is not a westernized version of Salaam.
I feel for you man. Truly I do. You seem to have a visceral need to make sure everybody is like you. Yes, we're all genetically the same over 99% of the time. But we're also unique as in the finger prints of every individual on this earth. That's the beauty of humans and nature in general. We should reveal in that, not run away from it. I think you should too. Whether you're 'mixed' is irrelevant, as the most unique thing about you is you. Otherwise, why do you want to be like any of the other 6+ billion rascals roaming this earth?
I think the topic of race (or the absence of it) is an issue deeply personal to you, and I don't want to continue to appear callous by trivializing what is so important to you. I think we approach the whole argument from two polar opposites. My focus is not on what makes us (humans) similar. That's quite obvious to me. What fuels my intellectual pursuit is what makes us different despite much of our similarity. Your approach appears to be the exact opposite of mine. May be seeing the difference in our approach helps you understand I and others who focus on such differences are not the cancers of the world (or racist as you call us), but merely exploring our nature from a different angle than yours. I think it is certainly our prerogative to do so, whether you agree or not.
Selam.
Ahh...what you meant to say was Salaam. Your westernized spelling helps identify you more than you would wish. Perhaps now that you are no longer ignorant, you will also learn the word's true meaning. Since you are obviously a religious person (which you may also attempt to deny) I impart with you this:
"To God belongs the East and the West, Wheresoever you look is the face of God.(Sura 2:115)
And if that doesn't work for you, a little Rumi, my favorite poet:
"in the shop for Unity; anything that you see there except the One, is an idol."
You really should research the Genome Project. You are as "naturally" mixed as they come.
?? ????? ??? ??
@Marge
Considering that wealth accumulation is a multi-generational process, you don't think the current day German's have benefited from the actions of previous generations?
@Jeigh
You're becoming unhinged friend.
Again, my hypothesis is turning in to a theory by your actions. I think you do drive some delight from using the word 'racist'. Here you are espousing that there are no races of humans, but according to you anybody who doesn't agree with your popular culture informed version of history is a racist.
Here is a clue, history is about the past. This video is about the past. Therefore, this discussion is about the past. That is not equivalent with me living in the past. Now, that is an elementary theorem even you can understand.
Let me ask you, do you consider the makers of this video racists for 1) delving in the past 2) exploring a genocide attributed to Germans?
If you think you're wasting your time, stop wasting it. Again, a simple premise that seems to elude you.
@Clix. Once again you have shown me I am wasting my time.
I maintain and have maintained that nobody is innocent and everyone is guilty (with the exception of enlightened individuals that understand everything in the universe comes from one source.)
Your assertion that I rely on pop culture is even more laughable. The context of this film and our conversation has been over the past one-hundred years. And save your rederick about Native Americans, since you have stated; you are not of the Americas (possibly south?). I assure you; I am more invested in Native American culture than you could ever be.
I only call it like I see it, and by your own arguments, you are a racist. I have not changed from that platform, since I first called you, and your crony, racists.
You make incredible assumptions about people; that I was raised in the U.S; That mixed heritage people are confused (the majority of the world is of mixed heritage) And then; so you do not have to defend the fact that whatever heritage you come from will be mixed, you ask me to crawl through pages of your nonsense to discover who you are!
It is clear that your desperate attempts to defend your racist platform only result in political double talk, and an avoidance of the substance in your own arguments, which solidly plant you deep into the ground as a strong and proud purveyor of racism. If you are not a Bushman. Then you are of mixed ethnicity. Lie to yourself all you want... genetics don't lie.
Above all what has come across loud and clear is that you will do anything to defend your racism, as you so desperately cling to the argument of "taking a clear side" like "Malcolm X" in the end of you rant. I won't get into it with you about Mr. X, but life is about evolving. The plights of early black Americans are beyond any description of bravery or vigilance towards the destruction of racism. And the message that was conveyed, led to the building of a new paradigm which people can today stand on, and be truly free of racism. It is too bad you are eternally stuck in the past and its trappings, and more so working against what those leaders taught us.
In fact; you have much more in common with the former U.S. President Bush. You are the "deciders" we are either "with you or against you", the world is either "good or evil, right and wrong, black and white." Let your position sink you further into the muck of racism, as it has continually; with every word you have typed... and every person, you have type casted.
Then we get to where you once again dismiss the core of the argument (the origin of man) as recycled ****. This really shows your true colors. " Enough" you shout! Enough of the scientific data that shows that race is a complete myth and that my argument is racist.
And lastly what else becomes obvious over the course of these comments is that you are not only a racist... but a bit of a troll. It is paramount for you to do your very best to conjure up the hatred you find in yourself, in others. This in necessary for you to live with yourself, and to perpetuate the myth of racism you so gladly promote.
It will not work with me. I only feel sorrow for you. Sorrow that you are trapped in a prison you have so easily fallen into. Sorry that you have built the walls so thick, that you don't have the strength or vision to tear them down. Sorry that you will never experience the true meaning of humanity and fellowship, that both Mr. Martin Luther King Jr., and Malcolm X, worked and sacrificed everything for, so that you might have the chance to stand on higher ground.
I wont fall victim to your trappings again. You need to argue your point, to spread your hatred. That's how a mental disease works. I will only hope, that someday you may see the light. The light that so many who came before you gave up their lives defending; so that one day, it may light your way to the truth.
I disagree that the government of Germany should pay reparations. The guilty persons are dead -- why should the innocent pay?
And as for the U.S. doing the same thing in Iraq -- that is the most illogical "thinking" I have ever heard. Some people live and breathe hatred -- I never want to be like that!
The US paid Germans reparations in order to rebuild Germany, and also paid the Japanese to rebuild. Learn your history before you speak on such topics. No people are just born into hatred. They are usually pushed into hatred by oppression which lies at the core of colonization. If German companies benefited financially from the enslavement and genocide of Namibians then they should pay reparations. If someones great grandfather killed the people that lay on those lands then in essence the crime has become multi-generational and his grandchildren are reaping benefits of stolen land. This why the Palestinian grows up hating the Jew, and the South African grows up hating the Boer. Profiting off of oppression is a crime of humanity, it is a breeding ground for terrorism and extremism.
@Jeigh
I am none of the above. I am not going to tell you my origin, as your hypothesis are much entertaining. However, you could simply make of my origin if you read my previous comments, but you don't seem to do much reading.
You seem almost excited to call people ignorant and racist. Why?
Regardless, it's ironic that you think Canadians are blameless. Talk about ignorance. Apparently you base your judgement of history on what is presented in popular culture. Canadians of European descent are as genocidal as their American ones. They have wiped out many nations of Native Americans from the land. What is left of the Native Canadians, they forcibly attempted to convert to their ways, leaving a traumatized and utterly destroyed culture still in existence today. For a person who relies so much on popular culture for historical information, you should have heard news stories a couple of years ago regarding the plight of Native Canadians their plight for redress. Canadians did not engage in slave trade because they have no use for slaves, as the land they occupied is barely arable. Also, with Americans doing the dirty work of empire building, Canadians don't have to get their hands dirty, while benefiting the spoils of the empire.
I don't think I am either racist nor terribly ignorant. You in your own words call me 'very intelligent'. Talk about confusion. Perhaps that comes from your mixed heritage. Most likely nothing to do with biology, racially mixed children born and raised in racially polarized countries like the U.S. are some of the most conflicted people. They suffer a great deal to straddle the chasm between right/left and black/white. Some, like you, find the politically correct middle ground to be a comfortable abode. Others, like Malcolm X, take a clear side. Either way, I don't envy your place. The world is to confusing as it is.
Finally, enough with the human origin crap. You're starting to sound like a broken record.
@clix I won't go into the details with you again about the origin of man. You don't seem to want to listen, and insist on continuing with the racist ideals and assumptions. I do, however recommend that you start at the top of this comment board and read. The answers you are looking for are there already. All people are easily capable of such atrocities. You really seem absolutely terrified of looking back into the real history of mankind and seeing the truth. That is all you would need to do, to start shedding the racism, but it seems that you need it. Its just who you are. (must be cultural or biological) But, I do have an actual question for you. Are you an American or a European? Or do you live, and has your family lived in Africa for the past thousand years. If your answer is American, then your own argument could easily be used against you. And just by the racist tone, and arrogance of your argument; I'm putting all my money on American. There is something culturally different about YOU, an American; That makes you more prone to go to war with foreign powers. Since you are judging these cultures by things they did 100 years ago I will judge you within the same guidelines, and say you are culturally predisposed to Violence. If you live in any European Country; replace cultures where needed. And while you are judging yourself as a warmonger, the only way that is possible by your own logic at this point; I assert that the only way you can avoid any of this blame, would to be Canadian. What is the deal there anyway? They are of European decent? They have a predominantly white make-up. Why haven't Canadians started war after war and tried to force their agenda down the worlds throat. Seriously. By your own logic, you should have a very good answer for me. And while we are at it; statistically you are more likely to have European ancestry, than not, if you are in fact an American. I suggest that you go have your DNA tested. Maybe then you will have some answers as to why you are so conflicted. But your argument. It is just completely wrong, and tired, an un-winnable. You are acting like John McCain with his stance on "Don't ask, Don't tell." You are very intelligent. Yet you insist on clinging on to all the hatred and ignorance that keeps racism alive and well. You are the incubator.
@Everyone's Wrong
Who's excusing the Iraq and Vietnam wars? If you mean the Americans, they are doing exactly what you're trying to do for the Germans. The genocidal acts of the Euro-Americans towards the Native-Americans is well documented as well.
All we're saying is, there is perhaps a cultural or biological tendency with Europeans that makes it more palatable for them to do such things.
Yes what the germans did in namibia and during world war 2 was awful and wrong. It just anger's me when everyone alway's tries to place ALL germans into one category.We are not all evil.Every race,religion,country,and government is guilty of killing and brutal behavior throughout history.It's just now you only hear about certain situations while other's are ignored or completely forgotten. Let's keep it fair folks! Ever notice how there are a million american made doc's about world war 2, yet only a handful of unbiased american made vietnam documentarie's. People like to focus on what shows them in a positive light, while ignoring the thing's that show them in a negative light. That's why you get lame ass excuse's for the vietnam war and the iraq war. Just trying to keep it fair that's all.
@jacob.Peace I never said they all are devils.But I do stand by my statement that they(those who did this) are devils.Surely you agree with that. Can you think of a better description I can't.Please man are you telling me after you saw this you said"Oh these are complicated individuals".Just say what it is those who did this are doing the work of who?[satan]which makes them what?[a devil]No matter what drives your moral compass Buda.Moses.Jesus.Mohammed.They would all say these people who did are devils.So please scroll up and review what I said I never said all.Peace.
The Europeans a race of devils? Erm please dont tar millions of people with the same brush - very ignorant. Europe contains a plethora of different people and perspectives, they are obviously not all devils, my nan certainly isn't, the real issue as with most things is power v's powerlessness (This is often an internal struggle as much as an external one). Basically though when you talk of groups of complicated individuals in this way you inadvertantly advance the kind of ignorance that can lead to such horror. Thanks.
@jeigh.Peace once again I would like to say I am not a racist.First let me say this being european is not soley determined by color I view it more as a mindset a way of thinking the way they think causes their behavior to be absulutely terrible as displayed in this film.Also I absolutely stand by my statement that you have devilish people in your family as do I and I thought I made it perfectly clear that no segment of the human family is exempt so all the africans kill africans and europeans kill europeans ect...is baseless in this discussion.So you say poverty and economics cause the problem but you don't see how their raping the people and the land has caused this.Yes african is the father of civilization, yes we all on the planet come from this place so technically your are correct so from now on lets speak on them as regional differences.But that still doesn't change the fact that those from that region have behaved for the past 600 years(I could go back further but i am trying to keep it relatively recent) like a pure devil enleashed on the planet do you deny this? Technology and sophisticated ways to enslave is there hope for the future.The Bible and Quran makes it perfectly clear that this is a spirtual war and man is in the middle doing the will of one of two sides.Satan knows he has lost so he goes after The Most High creation(The whole of creation) because he is well aware how much he cares for them and man so often do not know what they do. These facts are something for you to build on.I understand the situation that some bi-regional children find themselves in is difficult they carry the weight of both sides and I am well aware of the prejudice from both sides and I empathize with that.The film that clix spoke of the economic hitman i've seen and it proves they have no intention to change they are basically carring on a tradition of destruction and those who wish to live outside of their control are now terrorist and evil ect...I am not going to sit back and act like they don't have a trackrecord of murder,lying,and stealing.Maybe you don't have a concept of how bad these people are because you are not that way and this is how they have been able to do the things they have done because the indigenuos populations had no concept of this type of being.But we are beyond that now we no what they are capable of look around you.[and as a sidebar I do need people like clix but not for he reasons you believe.I need those like him for his temperance and sound wisdom]Peace.
@Jeigh
You sound like a kind person, and as such is difficult to be harsh with you. Copy/pasting an Oxford article, or any western academic article for that matter, in describing problems of Africa is tantamount to a salt-in-wound scenario.
I am not going to refer you to many scholarly articles by both western and non-western scholars that accurately paint the problems of Africa and who are responsible for fomenting them. Instead, I'd refer you to google and watch an extensive interview of John Perkins titled Confessions of an Economic Hitman. He is as idealistic as you are in his current life. However, his idealism comes from having seen the horrors inflicted by the west on the so called Third World countries.
You shoot yourself in the foot when you blame the victims in an attempt to correct the wrong done to them. Doesn't work for the rape victim, as it doesn't for the oppressed and downtrodden.
In my very first comment on this thread, I said this:
I know nothing of your background, but given your persistent attempt at being apologists gives me some indication. As such, be careful not to find yourself in that group of people I am speaking of.
Trust me when I say this, those who have been out in the cold never learned to sleep well. Even once inside, they sleep with one eye open. As such, it is disingenuous of you to tell them to wake up.
I bid you farewell.
@Clix
Anger is a natural step, yet an ancient tool of a passing paradigm. I have faced the darkest acts of man in this this world; many through the eves of a child of a child. I'm mixed, so I have had hatred flying at me from every direction, and faced things far too unspeakable to bring to this forum.
So I guess I was wrong; your going to keep the fire burning. I will however, remind you again.. All of humanity has descended from the Bushmen of Africa. All peoples heritage is African.
The history of Africa is just as drenched with the blood of war and conquest; it has been before, and since anyone got around to going back there. I'm not going to attempt to list all of the modern wars. Africans vs Africans that is. Of course; who knows what constitutes Modern African to you?
Here is an article from the Oxford University Press. Sure...you may think its a white washed institution; smart people from all walks of life however, tend to respect their well researched, and calculated hypothesizes. It's standing as one of the top twenty universities in the world, doesn't hurt either.
Abstract:
Contrary to popular belief, Africa's civil wars are not due to its ethnic and religious diversity. Using recently developed models of the overall incidence of civil wars in 161 countries between 1960 and 1999, we draw lessons with special reference to Africa, showing that the relatively higher incidence of war in Africa is not due to the ethno-linguistic fragmentation of its countries, but rather to high levels of poverty, failed political institutions and economic dependence on natural resources. We argue that the best and fastest strategy to reduce the incidence of civil war in Africa and prevent future civil wars is to institute democratic reforms that effectively manage the challenges facing Africa's diverse societies. To promote inter-group cooperation in Africa, specially tailored political governance and economic management institutions are needed, and we advance some hypotheses on the nature of such institutions. We suggest that Africa's ethnic diversity in fact helps - rather than impedes - the emergence of stable development as it necessitates inter-group bargaining processes. These processes can be peaceful if ethnic groups feel adequately represented by their national political institutions and if the economy provides opportunity for productive activity.- Oxford University Press.
I wont even bother mapping out all the war in Asia. It would take twenty hours of DVD footage to even come close. But, please, go out and educate yourself about the world, and it's conflicts a little more. Knowledge is the path to the freedom from racism you claim to seek.
I really don't understand why you invoke the names of Martin Luther King Jr. or Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi. Gandhi's early racism towards Africans, is a common known fact; Only when he accepted the path of Ahimsa (nonviolence and nonresistance) did he renounce the foolish misguidance of his earlier life. He stood up to tyranny with non-cooperation. Anyone can do the same with racism... alas; hating is so much easier though.
That's really all I have to say about it. Thanks for the conversation. It's much easier to bend in the wind, than to grow strong and sturdy. Good luck.
Some day I hope the both of you can wake to the true crimes against humanity and what drives them. $$$$ The rich are getting richer; and hatred is whats selling.
@Heather
"It’s true that a little knowledge is very a dangerous thing."
Apart from the fact that it is a tired cliche, it is often used to mask one's own knowledge or lack of it.
Would you like to elaborate how it applies to this documentary or subsequent discussion, before I presume the above is the case for you as well?
@Jeigh
With as far as menilik1&2 comments, I think I have distinguished between what I called chaff and essentially true. I acknowledged what I thought is truthful in his comment and disregarded the rest. That doesn't mean I condone what I did not directly repudiate. menilik1&2 also alludes that his response comes from a place of anger, anger against the Germans and many other Europeans who have perpetrated similar genocidal acts against many indigenous people around the world. Such anger must be acknowledged coming from those who have been wronged, not dismissed or belittled. I understand that anger. I had to work through that anger. I have said many things to people in anger in discussions similar to this that have ruined my relationships with them. Although most of those relationships needed to be ruined, I regret ruining some of them. I don't regret my walk with my anger, as it had taught me important things about me and the world in which I live.
Malcolm X and Mandela (the younger one) used their anger better than most people in advancing the causes of oppressed people. Others, like Ghandi and MLK advanced their causes from more calm positions. We remember all of them today for advancing their causes well, not as much for the means they employed.
Coming back to our humble discussion here, I think menilik1&2 advances his cause well, despite his apparent anger. His anger is something that he has to work out between himself and his God.
It's true that a little knowledge is very a dangerous thing.
@Clix,
Thanks for the very kind words; they made me feel good. Like I said, I have seen how similarly we view things, and I am only pulling away on that one small, yet pinnacle point.
Though my position may be critical, I still think it is , as it is absolutely necessary. It is too rare of a point of view.
I especially understand your historic perspective; as history is history unless manipulated. We have seen (above) how devastating that can be. One thing that makes my point of view easier; I hate things that are full of s#*%. I have always known that racism is full of %#*t, but even yet; I still saw traces of it in my own life. I'm sure you know the cliche, "everyone is a racist." Of course this isn't true, but it takes some serious work to rid yourself of the lie.
It's not any easier when society itself is so riddled with racism.
But honestly, it really is a farce, and anytime I made an assumption about someone; whether over color, or age, or sex; I checked myself, and I always ended up making judgments for no logical reason whatsoever.
This just leads to living life as a lie. Look at @Menelick's last comment to me. He is trying to play it off (his argument),as a righteous position, inspired by the the teachings of Jesus Christ.
He then goes on to accuse; "I'm sure you have some of that {the work of Satan}in your family!"
and further more assume," It's clearly apparent (sic) that you are European"
Why would he make such broad assumptions? With such content and condemnation? What kind of racist logic does he use to even make such an ignorant and baseless claim? Is it because I am intelligent? Or because I'm not jumping on the "Hate train" to nowhere?
Look at how blatantly racist that is.
So for me; you unwittingly help him perpetuate this hatred
by letting this ignorance slide, without calling it out for what it really is: Bull*^#*!
He even reinforces your acceptance of this racism, by implying your support for him in his last post.
See... he needs you. He even needs others to think you support his racism. He will be lost without it; and he is unable to see beyond it. That is the deceptive and manipulative nature of racism, that makes it so tricky to finally free ourselves from.
Your right there though; You seem ready to take the last step in my opinion.
And I (we) need you more.
@ Madskillz
Iraq has a population of 31 million and change. With a conservative casualty count of over 1 million that would be 1 Iraqi in 30 -- dead. That is an incredibly high casualty rate. There is a site, Iraqibodycount, that keeps a daily count of incidents involving civilians. The total stands at 108 thousand. It is still brutal. Like I posted, Iraq should never have been invaded but genocide is not an American objective there. I may not agree with that war but I will not use erroneous arguments to back up those beliefs.
@clix.Peace I'm glad you got the core of what i was saying.Similar to you i have relations with europeans in business and at times in my personal life. Still i will state the truth on any subject. If i state the sun is hot it doesnt mean i am anti-sun i am just stating the fact. There are those who do the will of The Most High out of every segment of the human family and there are those who do the will of satan out of every segment of the human family none are exempt, And i'm so glad you understood about China also sometimes its not easy telling people the truth.PEACE
@jeigh.Peace,i am not a racist for stating the truth.Truely all cultures kill, Cain killed Able. But what occurred in Namimbia was a whole hearted attempt to to wipe a people from the planet and for what reason? Because they where not going to take the raping of their sisters,mothers ,and daughters and over all barbaric and ungrateful treatment of the same people who dealt with them fairly and justly from the onset.I'm sure the truth hurts but a lie is torture.Pardon me if my mildly firery language offended you but the veiwing of the film and there behavior offended me.Also I took note that the man on the ground in charge before the general took over did not want this to occur, so what should that tell us not all were in agreement with the horrors done to these people. Yet the masses over ruled any minority. This is not a condemnation of you (it's clearly appearent you are european)i'm speaking on the majority. I understand that the planet belongs to the human family but some of our cousins are not right and are in deed and actions doing the work of satan (I'm sure you have some of that in your family) that is why i referred to them as devils if you have a more fitting word for a person or persons that would do such a thing as what they did i would gladly use it in any further text.(and by the way i sincerly hope you two gentlemen don't stop communicating with one another my aim was not to cause discourse that would make me a what?)Now with that being said if you believe the story of Noah all men on the planet have the capability to be devils and if you beleive the story of Jesus all men have the capability to be gods(children of The Most High who will die like men)If you choose, but the latter is far more difficult with greater reward and peace.So be more prudent in your use of the word racist (angry would have been more accurate). So let us all reason together though I am well aware that some are beyond reason and any attempt to is like fighting the wind and i don't think that you are beyond reason.PEACE
@Jeigh
Let's not part ways. You have a genuinely pure view of the world and the human family, which is how I want to be like when I take off my analytical hat.
My personal dealings with people of any skin/eye/hair color are much different than my analytical/intellectual endeavors. I am a person of African ancestry. I have spent half of my life in Africa and the other half in the U.S. A person we consider a second mother to our children is a white lady from the deep south. We love her dearly, and at times we have become insecure our children love her more than they love their parents. Having our children establish such an emotional bond with someone of a completely different background, I feel, is one of our greatest accomplishment as parents. When we talk about skin color with our children we use very light brown, light brown, brown, etc., the second mother being very light brown. We're all a shade of brown.
As you, I don't subscribe to the current paradigm of race. Historically, however, it is significant.
I do hope as a society, we'll get where you are right now, but we're not there.
@ clix, I know you and I agree on most of the points that have been brought up along the coarse of this discussion; but I really have to part with you here. Listen to the language used in these posts. They completely separate themselves and all cultures from Europeans. This is simply wrong. Looking at the world this way is completely illogical and racist. Just insinuating that there are races, is racism. Maybe not in the tradition form, but still. There are all kinds of racism; all of them are ignorant. I live in NYC. I'm not going to tell you how many different cultures there are here. I never look at a single person as being from a different race. Perhaps one of the larger issues that is not addressed, since most are stuck in the racist web, is that we hate because we are family.
Bottom line, the hatred is there in their language. Loud and clear. Whatever else they say is moot, since they are baseless in their logic. All of this hatred is really just a reflection of self-hatred to begin with... but that is another story.
@clix, While you are correct that there are underlying themes to the comments, they are convoluted by his hatred.
Race is the tired paradigm. Hatred for people because of their race is ignorant. RACE DOES NOT EXIST. Racism does, though. And it's alive and well in the above comments.
You can hold their hands and walk them off a cliff if you want, but I prefer to look things strait in the eye. Their comments are racist. Pure and simple.
Correction: The propagation of disease and death by Europeans is a phenomenon that took place over the course of several centuries, instead of just the two I alluded to above. In fact, this has been the case since at least the late 15th century to current day.
menelik1&2
I agree, disease and death often follow the path of the European. That has been the story of the 19th and 20th centuries. Jared Diamond in his Guns, Germs and Steels points out this same fact as to why Europeans have been able to succeed in pillaging and destroying a significant amount of the world's indigenous population.
Again, I agree with you about China. The Chinese would not have pulled ahead had they allowed themselves to be exposed to the workings of the CIA. They tightly controlled their media and movement much to the dismay of the Americans and Europeans who decried the Chinese's actions as 'human rights abuses'. The Chinese persisted. Now they're on an equal footing, they will decide what 'human rights abuse' is. It will be a fantastically interesting century ahead.
Yes, I do also hope that there is some eternal consequences for such actions in this world or another.
-Selam
@Jeigh
You seem to be responding to the chaff of menilik1&2's comments. There are important kernel's of truth to what he's saying, such as the ones I pointed out above. The 'racist' thing is a tired and overused paradigm. We're all biased against those who are not like us. It becomes racist when we act up on those biases to subjugate those who are not like us. In order to subjugate, one must have power over another. Now think of the word 'racist' and 'racism' in that context.
@menelik, You are as racist as the 19th century Germans, and your continued hatred and ignorance is why the myth of racism still exists today. Africans kill Africans, Europeans kill Europeans, Asians kill Asians, and we all kill each other. Why? Because we can... Why can we? Because of ignorance and hatred. Get over yourself racist.
The fact is they are devils.They are not alone but they (meaning the melonen deficient europeans)are chief in the hiearchy of devils on the planet. You all can debate the reasons behind it.The horror of it all is that when they appear on your shores decease and death will soon follow.If I am in error please tell me of a place where they landed and this did not occur.But solace can be found that on the Great Day of Judgement The Most High will rightiously avenge those who were treated so shamefully.So people of Namibia cry tears of joy this will happen there lack of mercy and compassion will be repaid ten fold.[As a side bar i noticed some one mentioned China... the reason they are in the position they are in today is because they no who they are dealing with in their relation to europeans they keep a close eye on when they allow them in their borders and business done there is always 50/50 or 49/51 with the state always invovled when foreigners do business there]Peace.
@Ryan
Very good point
Very few westerners throughout history have shown the capacity to hold themselves, or their society, to ANY standard of morality when dealing with these so called "un-civilized" people.
Mark Twain had a quote that I have always appreciated, and considering he was born in the 19th century even more impressive,
"There are many humorous things in the world; among them, the white man's notion that he is less savage than the other savages."
It really makes me angry how the mass graves of the Herero and Nama aren't even recognized...how there's no monument..how a concentration camp is now a trailer camp. How a genocide like this is wiped away from memory. It's perverse.
And all I can say for the "civilized" West: over the past few centuries, the greatest injustices and atrocities have been committed under a notion of ethno-cultural superiority. Funny how the "civilized" people can kill more than the "savages" they wish to protect themselves from.
I was always in the dark about the life in the german colonies at the turn of the century, never thought such atrocity happened,thanks for the upload oh and the comments are interesting too :)
Australian polls showed over 70% AGAINST Iraq war. Free trade agreement waved under Prime Minister's nose... CHA CHING!
Amazing how soon people forget this kinda thing. OUTRAGEOUS.
jack1952
Nope. And I reckon 1 million is conservative.
Your'e not taking into account the 'collateral' civilian casualty, resulting from the THINGS that get bombed. As usual, the civ casualty FAR outweighs any militant sort.
Food production, water treatment, electricity grids.....
And then there is, of course, TRADE EMBARGO.
Time to take some responsibility, peoples.
There is the world you see, hear, touch, smell and taste,.. then there is the real world.
Talking about reparations, I would like to bring to your attention the kidnapping and killing of an SS officer and a prominent business man, Hanns-Martin Schleyer, by the Red Army Faction, an organisation consisting mainly of Germans. So keep this in mind when talking about Germans, Europeans or whomever. If you want to get even make sure you find the right guy, and if you don't consider the possibility that someone else can have already finished the job for you.
@Jeigh; i completly agree with you. race really doesnt exist. Only once we realize this can racism end.
@jack; The exact point I attempted to make here. If you are interested look into the doc here on top docs that I referred to above. It shows the reality of the sectarian violence of Iraq. Many people seem to want to pick a bad guy and run with it, but reality is so much more complex.
Jack 1952, thank you. At least someone agrees with me. I think the anti-Americans here get a little carried away with their zealous rhetoric. Sure you can definitely dislike the Iraq War and American actions, but it simply isn't genocide. If you think it is, then you don't understand the legal, political or philosophical definition of genocide.
Iraq cannot be equated with Namibia. The genocide of the natives in Namibia was a planned and deliberate extermination of a race of people derived from a perceived problem and a clear objective in mind. The United States does have economic goals in Iraq but extermination has never been a part of this strategy. Iraqi casualty totals lie at under 110,000 not 1 million. Many of the Iraqi dead are as a result of sectarian violence and not as a part of a master American plan of genocide. These rival groups also struggled against each other for years before the invasion but were controlled by the oppressive measures of Saddam Hussein.
This is not to absolve the American government of wrong doing. The invasion should not have taken place. There have been atrocities committed by the American military but they are not the direct result of a policy to commit genocide. There are no slave or death camps and if President Obama is to be believed, almost all American troops will be out of Iraq by 2012. Many of the groups fighting in Iraq want the United State to leave only so they can impose their own oppressive regime of the rest of Iraq.
@Taharqa, Im not sure why you had that reaction. If you go back and re-read my post's you will see that I am looking at both sides of the argument, and never came out on either one. I appreciated Reasons Voice, for his view, and was continually impressed by your valid replies. I was simply asking a question, that you never answered.
Also look at my last paragraph on number 46. Does that sound like I have chosen sides? And that was my last comment.
Reasons Voice enjoys being the devil's advocate, and I'm glad he does; You were obviously on the side of reparations with a bag full of great points. I like to walk right down the middle. Not because I can't make up my mind, but because there is always common ground in any argument and that space can be the difference between a sound, productive debate, and a shoot out, that serves nobody. I didn't think this was getting out of control; I thought it was just getting good, because more were joining with ideas and concepts I had yet to consider. So... I don't know, things rarely rub me the wrong way, but I don't appreciated being painted up as something I'm not. It's too bad you blew your top, because as I mentioned in the other posts, you were really adding to the conversation.
@Peter; You do know that this happened in like 1808 right?
the peoples of namibia should have there land back. it was theres. this is unbelievable what these racists did. the germans have a history of this. the slaughter of thousands now there back for conquest again world war 111. they just got their professonal army now.they run this eu. there looking to create a rapid reaction force for international deployment. they are getting total control of this next superpower.the germans allready have troops all across the world. they have a permanent base in the us ,new mexico. free flights across the us. they can change their thinking overnite meang militant. the word german means warman. some of the concern is getting very little press.political correctness ,that couldnt happen again. watch germany
My bottom line is this. The past can only be lamented and learned from, never repaired. We should look to the past and our flaws to better ourselves in the now and the future. Why not focus all of your humanitarian zeal toward putting an end to the tribal warlord genocides currently taking place? The blood diamond or Blood coltan trade? No amount of money will atone for a genocide.
OK that is an over reaction. No one disputed the genocide at all here. Just the reparations idea. You say that proper sanction should be placed upon the guilty government. Ok so that should be whom? Kaiser Wilhelm II King of Prussia? Otto of Bavaria? King George of Saxony? or King Wilhelm of Wurttemberg? The government you want sanctioned no longer exists. It is twice removed at this point (three times if you count East German communist rule). So how is it that modern day German nationals should be held accountable for the decisions and actions made by an emperor over 100 years ago and part of a government long long left behind?
I am sorry but your comparisons are a long stretch. If you do the crime yes you should absolutely pay the price but if your mothers grandfathers brother did the crime you are not accountable.
Wow!!!
@ Jeigh
I can say the debate is really getting heated here. I don't even know why we're making this topic so complex than it is.
The fact is that genocide was committed PERIOD.
The application of the " Lebensraum Theory " was put in place and executed with no doubt to the fullest extent. It was premeditated and executed as planned. Why is it so difficult for people to see this?
Manipulation and propaganda of the Herero people was also used to keep them in a box and effectively exterminate this group of people by the Germans.
Now it looks like Reasons Voice, Jeigh and many of the anti-reparation "activists" are so caught up into the yesteryears finger pointing and blaming and so on. If it is concluded and verified with overwhelming evidence of a genocide taking place shouldn't we as conscious and moral people have the obligation to end the atrocities and sanction the criminal. If I kill somebody then I should do time or face death penalty. If a Government is in no doubt involved in the extermination of a group of people then they should be sanctioned and punished thus forced to settle with reasonable reparations PERIOD. I mean why is this an issue? You commit the Genocide you face the punishment isn't that what is all about or am I missing something here...LoL
I'm out of this post!!!
Peace!!!
@ clix, let me make it clear. I do not support the war in Iraq, I do consider the U.S. to have committed numerous atrocities as well, but they do not constitute genocide. We can debate whether the definition of genocide is good or not, but that's not the point. The internationally agreed upon definition results in a systematic destruction or attempted destruction of an ethnic, religious or cultural group.
Your definition seems to be saying that any battle or war can technically constitute as genocide. In WW I, British soldiers wanted to kill German soldiers, correct? Why isn't that genocide? Because the goal was not to destroy the German nation (by nation, I mean ethno-cultural group).
Likewise, while Americans have committed numerous atrocities, they are not trying to wipe out Shia Iraqis or Sunni Iraqis or any group for that matter. There's a huge difference between conquest and genocide. Washington didn't go to Iraq because he wanted to "kill Iraqis" because they hate Iraqis and want to see them all dead. That would be genocidal. Yes, maybe they wanted regime change and a "pseudo colony" but that's a huge difference.
@clix, Asian eyes can be incredibly vicious. I was considering the idea more as a defense mechanism. Because there were less threats against the people of Asia, possibly the need for bigger eyes was not a necessity. Asian children still have large eyes, as do some Asian adults, but it is difficult to even speak about these concepts without generalizing. Also the eye contact thing... That's really interesting and I had not considered that yet. What ever the answer turns out to be, it will most likely be combination of a few things. Thanks.
@Reasons Voice, That's about the same conclusion I came to, so with that reasoning, the land should not be taken from the farmers and given to the Herero. The Herero should be able to take it though? Where I'm going with this is, when does it then become wrong to take a peoples (farmers) land with force. Is there a magic line in history, where man became civilized and these actions are unacceptable. Clearly this still happens, but nations that do it are condemned for it. And what makes the farmers position any more lawful than the Herero should they decide to try and take it. Time? Because.... well, time is a state of mind.
On the eye contact issue. My understanding is that direct eye to eye contact is perceived as an act of equality. I suppose in a sense it is mutual agression by two paries thus establishing neutrality. As to looking away, it is perceived as timid as you say and a showing of subserviance. I am not sure that it is as pervasive as you say that eye contact is not made outside of the western world but I have limeted expirience with that. I do see buisness people from the Mid East and Asia who make eye contact though. The accepted theories on this are changing though since perceptions are changing. While onece a direct stare could be perceived as agressive today it is the one who will not make eye contact that is seen as "shifty" or untrustworthy. The smile or baring of teeth is another everyday body language with mixed connotations of agression.
@Ryan
Can you tell us how the U.S. atrocities (I hope I can call it that) in Iraq cannot be considered a genocide?
Genocide is generally defined as a systematic killing of a certain race (or cultural group) of people. I think we can safely say Iraqis are a race of people different than the ones in the U.S. Otherwise we can certainly agree they are of a relatively homogeneous cultural group different than the U.S. Now we have established that fact, let's move on to the more difficult issue of what is meant by systematic.
Systematic is generally defined as a planned and ordered occurrence. Even though we're not there, it is clear we get from news reports there is not an all out war in the traditional sense in Iraq. A lot of the fighting takes place in forms of insurgency (on the part of the Iraqis) and a counter attack to quell the insurgency by the U.S. troops. Such attack often happens in forms of planned bombings of residential neighborhoods. There is also at least one verifiable situation where two British soldiers were caught attempting to bomb a Shiite mosque and make it look like it was done by the Sunnis. This is done knowing that the Shiites would respond in kind, contributing to more deaths. As we also saw in the video released by Wikileaks, people who seemed minding their own business and/or were trying to help out others were killed because they happened to look like Iraqis. Let's not forget the systematic abuse and murder of Iraqi's at Abu Ghraib prison. This all came about as a result of politicians lying and making up evidence to justify the attack in the first place to avenge an attack on the U.S. that was not even the doing of the Iraqis. Those're some of the things that can show the actions of the U.S. are planned and orderly in killing Iraqis.
I still like to hear your take on it.
@Chief, thanks. The religious aspect, hadn't crossed my mind yet... not sure why, we are saturated by it. Thanks for bringing it up. That would make reparations even more difficult (not only in this exact case) but in a broader sense also. How much would the Catholic church owe North,Central,South Americans. That would be interesting considering the large populations of Catholics in the Americas. Hmmm...
@Jeigh; Land ownership is always a tough thing to decide in any situation let alone in Africa. Africa before colonization was not even divided into anything near the national borders we see today. The territories of the tribes were determined by available resources and fluxuated with the years and the seasons. When colonization happened the tribes were compressed and bound into regions that were no longer flexible. Tribes that never interacted were pushed together as well as tribes that had fought for generations over the land. When aparteid ended and soverighnty was restored to the people it retained these unnatural borders and has resulted in untold conflict. Also the lack of reliable written records from tribal groups makes pinning down a true "home land" for millions of displaced people neigh impossible. It would take a miracle to untangle that mess and make a fair ruling in the matter.
@clix; The flaw in my statement that you percieve is all in how you personally see my statement, not in it's logic. You are thinking in scale. If the Herero killed twenty eight members of a village of forty individuals for controll of a piece of land they did the same amount of damage to that village as the Germans did to the Herero. The numbers are vastly different but the impact is not. Both actions ammount to a near extermination of a distinct group. as to the mispelling ya got me. I actually went back and changed it to the wrong one. I am admittedly a terrible speller at times.
Wow, this is getting really good. Can someone please address the question I've posed twice. #36 Last paragraph. I don't know anything about international real estate law, but more so, I would like to hear the two opposite arguments. The question does deal directly with the subject, and involves both governments and individuals.
@Jeigh
The shape of the eyes is an interesting idea, although an Asian of today can muster a deadly mean look as any. Bruce Lee, eh! I wonder if there is anything written on the evolutionary significance of the shape of the eyes.
That had me thinking though; how it is considered rude and aggressive to look one in the eyes even during routine conversation in most of the world, but is a required action during conversations in most of Europe and North America. Otherwise, one is not taken seriously and considered timid.
@ Jeigh
Good post to 'Nat Turner'. Also, the Europeans saw that warring with each other in the quest for supremacy was counter productive; with the help of the Catholic Church, they turned their attention to Africa,the Americas, Australia and other outcrops of lands for conquest. Under the guise of religion and for more than 400 years their ideology survived reason and triumphed over facts as they created the Western Worldview that continues to dominate societies; selectively endorsing distinct groups with reparation funds as a remedy for Germanic atrocities.
@Reasons Voice
I do enjoy a good devil's advocate. You may be a good one in other instances, but sorry to say, not here. Your arguments are too logically flawed to challenge what I believe, thus frustrating.
Case in point:
Paraphrase: The Ovaherero are warlike people and ruled by force, thus should pay reparations.
The first and obvious flaw with this argument is that it assumes they have committed an atrocity on a scale of what the German's did, since you're bringing their actions in comparison to the Germans. Next, it assumes ruling by force equals exploitation. And finally, it assumes the Ovaherero and their ancestors have single handily benefited from such exploitation. Given that all those assumption are correct, yes I'd agree that the Ovaherero pay reparation. However, you have no substantiation for those implicit assumption your argument makes.
A good argument requires a good thought and effort. Otherwise, it's just another knee jerk.
BTW, the right word to use in your 3rd from last sentence in Comment #21 is 'affected', not 'effected'. Just a pet peeve of mine.
@Taharqa, Good points, very good, but Reasons Voice is also right. If we did play it out, and go all the way back, hold every people and family responsible instead of governments they lived in (which would be impossible and inaccurate), We are going to end up blaming the Bushmen of Africa. Seriously. And they are a disappearing culture already, and all of our grandparents so to speak. So, I guess it really is pointless.
@Reason's Voice, Thanks for doing the research work. I thought about that also, but am lazy today.
But, I asked a question nobody replied to. The Herero say they don't want reparations, they want their land back. Is this a form of reparations also; should they get it back? While I know all people originate from the same source, the idea of land ownership is another thing. Who really owns that land? Is there some period of time in which a people need to be on the land, or have been off the land before ownership can be resolved?
Who ever edits these docs need more training. Are we suppose to be listening to the background noise or the narrator. Maybe the historical information is not really that important.
Wow, you're honestly equating the US in Iraq with Germany in Namibia? I'm not for the Iraq War, but only an idiot would assume and allege that what America is doing in Iraq is genocide. Half of you probably don't even know what genocide means if you assume that lol.
I have spent a little time looking deeper into Nambian history and culture and wanted to add this just to gain some understanding of my stance on reparations. The Herero peoples were the ruling tribe of nambia at the time of German colonization. Prior to colonization they were known to the other tribes as a " fearless and war-loving people".
There are eleven other large tribes in Nambia who prior to colonization were ruled over by the Herero by force. So that being known do then the Herero owe tribes such as the Kavango and the Damara some recompense for past tribal wars? Just saying the world is complex and all peoples can be both conqueror and victim in their own times.
And Taharqu; If the scenario you ellude to is a deliberate paralell to the Brittish royal family or just coincidental effect, I agree. The continued pampering of the decendants of warmongers in any nation is absurd.
@Nat Turner
How dare you!! I admit I am no angel but unlike you I am not a racist. I am annoyed at the amount of Eastern Europeans entering Britain but I wouldn't stoop so low as to call them Devils. Racist scum.
@jeigh; No offence taken for the barbs. I probably deserved them a bit. I actually love critisisms as they keep me from actually becoming self riteous and narcissistic. If no one ever contradicted me or even condemned me how would I ever grow as a person? Like I said a deep respect for you and many others here brings me back time and again.
@Taharqa; Yes I do get your point and see where it is you are trying to lead. The ruling elite have made their fortunes on the sweat of those they have ruled. That s all true. However my stance here is not what you may think. If the question here was "Should the guy in the $5 mil mansion give back to the people who are responsible for his sucess?" the answer is undoubtedly yes. But that is not what is proposed. Reparations are not payed out of the Kings coffers but out of money taken from those he rules. So as your poor endentured surf it is not my ideal to take the bread from the mouths of my neighbors as payment for what you have done to me. If it were possible for the direct benefitiaries of a wrongdoing to be held accountable then ok. But not an entire nation comprised of people who truely played no role in it.
@ Reasons Voice, I stand corrected, you are not an android, and the narcissism comment was out of line... I really did wake up slightly turned to the world today. I also, cannot deal with the world of the superficial and please don't apologize for anything. Like I said before, You ALWAYS get me thinking, and that is more precious than gold.
@ Reasons Voice
Common now don't be so in denial with yourself and pathetic.
SCENARIO 1: My great grandfather (a king) and his people came to your village and wiped out all your people but decided to let only one surviving family (your family) to help with knowledge of the land.
SCENARIO 2: in 2011 I am your direct neighbor and my family runs the government and all my people leave in $5 million dollar mansions with all the latest technologies regarding transportation, education, etc, etc
Your family is considered "second" class citizen with no rights to read or write or own any means of transportation.
They don't have the right to further developments.
If they do make any discoveries as second citizens the credit will be given to my family (1st class citizens) and eventually be patented and made public to the whole world...LoL!!!
A special bible has been edited to further justify our superiority and your inferiority as well as your submission to my family.
They can't go to the same places or share the same facilities either. But they do have the right to live in a mud shack with grass roofs and practice whatever tradition they have been practicing for centuries.
Now how would your family and yourself feel????????
Answer with honesty please!!!!
Taharqa (Conqueror of Egypt and last Nubian Pharaoh of African lineage of Pharaohs)
peace!!!
Back atcha Jeigh. I'll try to be less predictable. Perhapse when a good documentary comes up about a different theme than war and gennocide.
I have read Neitzsche and enjoyed most of it. As to compassion, would it surprise you to know that I work in medecine? That I devote my days to helping people on whatever level I can? I am in fact quite emotional and quite compassionat. Honestly it is that compassion which drives my neutrality in a sense. No i did not contradict myself there. Reason is not humanity. If humanity were reason hate and compassion would be things of the past. Android is a good comparrison to reason. And the Spock comparisson is excellent. Trust me though in my day to day reality I am more Scotty than Spock.
@Reasons Voice. You know, I really wanted to say "Devils Advocate", not sure why I didn't... maybe I woke up on the wrong side of the bed. And I appreciate you immensely, SeeUat Videos wouldn't be the same without you. I am constantly thinking when reading comments; I wonder what Reason is going to say about this...although you are becoming a little predictable for me... nonetheless, you are very appreciated and always make me think... so thank you.
Oh and @Jeigh; I apologise if you feel I tend to jump into every debate. To put it simply, I find that the world I live in where topic of conversation trends from Angry Birds to which actor is sleeping with which actress and reality TV, is far too dull and unimportant. I have a thirst for real debate and discussion of real issues that I can slake here in these forums. The comments here allow me to use my mind and I love and appreciate it so much. Believe me the context of my respect for you as well as others here on these forums is sadly lost in translation to text.
@Clix, See what I mean? He is best in an advisory position. A good example would be Spock. Spock has an incredible intellect, but you wouldn't want him as captain of the ship. I do find it rather humorous though, that his first line in the above statement is, "Reason is neither good or bad" and his last line, (when trying to show compassion) is "humanity is a world of good and evil" Lol! He is a contradiction of himself here. I would think a man of "Reason" would have read some Nietzsche at this point, but when Reason's voice try's on the compassion costume he instantly betrays himself and reason...
@Jeigh; Lol you have me right in a sense. I do like to be a bit of a devils advocate at times. I am however not a narcissist by a long streach. I am well aware that I am as limited as the next man if not more-so. I am glad though that my comments have provoked thought and learning to people such as you whome I honestly respect regardless of differing opinion. I suppose I could opt for a different screen name but mehh I like this one. And android? I am all too human.
As to my choice of handle; Reason is neither good nor bad. It is an attempt at neutrality through understanding of the whole picture. In essence it is ballance. Compassion is not reason it is emotion, and only a part of rational judgement.
I try hard not to speak on an issue without first looking at both sides as well as the broader picture. This web site is full of very intellegent people who would evicerate me if I could not back up what I say with facts and reason. That said I do not intend at all to trivialize the content of this documentary. It was a travesty and my heart does indeed bleed for those directly effected by these events. I simply will not jump into finger pointing and blame. Humanity is a world of both good and evil and as such is subject to the old addage about stones and glass houses.
@Clix, Don't sweat it about Reason's Voice. He does this to everyone! Even people he agrees with or vice versa. He simply loves to disagree. He often has very valid points, but it all gets lost in his need to intercede. I mean... come on, what else but self-righteous fluff can you expect from someone calling themselves Reason's Voice. He's a Narcissist. You will always learn something from him but I find it's best to just listen and leave, not get involved... he fancies himself as an android or something.
@ Edward
Well, well, well,
this is quite an interesting question you just raised here.
IMO settlement rights around the globe MUST be resolved.
Most people will argue that being apologetic or giving more opportunities regarding civilians or class status to the displaced and almost extinct group of people is always good enough... WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.
People got to realize that it is not just a matter of peace treaties or making amends but a matter of re-evaluating our moral values on which nations are founded or built.
In 2010 President Barack Obama signed a $4.6 Billion settlement regarding African American farmers and Native American tribes following a class action lawsuit against the U.S. government which has been a long standing dispute for decades.
"The legislation closes a long and unfortunate chapter in our history...It's finally time to make things right," Obama said.
Now regarding Namibia if this issue is settled my main concern will be how the settlement will be organized.
@ Edward: As a Namibian, should it be settled by undertaking huge projects in the education sector, industrial sector, market sector etc...? What do you think ???
In the U.S. there are already strict laws in place which prohibit mismanagement of funds no matter who has access.
Now this will be a tough one to undertake since corruption levels in Africa are at an All-Time high which results with members of government having overwhelming levels of power and monopoly.
If at all this issue is settled let it not be in vain...these settlements should include government audits and especially new and strict safeguards to prevent fraud.
my $0.2
Peace!!!!
@clix; Please see the documentary referred to here in regards the Iraqi police before you accost my viewpoint on that issue. Without knowledge of your own on the issue getting upset at my view point, which comes from looking at all the facts, is reactionary. The "inconvenience" of the embargo on Germany post WWI was so crippleing that it led to starvation and social collapse and ultimately the rise of the third reich. So not all that trivial. And what of the rest of my examples? I could honestly give thousands more. Your accusations toward European nations are founded on facts however they are a form of nationalis cherry picking. Even the tribes of Africa and the American Aztecs have been guilty of opression and genocide in the past. My point is that no nation or peoples is innocent. So if we are to force one to make reparations we should then hold all accountable equally. And no I do not believe that people are responsible for the acts of their "ancestors". If I were to find out that your great grat grandfather had rapped a woman is it right for me to send you to prison? Also no nations populace is static. Many of those who live in Germany now are decendants of immigrants whos ancestors were not even in Germany and they would be part of that group paying reparations. The decendants of those who did perpetrate these acts may not exist as the perpetrators may have left the country or died.
Our world has devolved into one of societies as collectives. Gone is the notion of personal responsibility. It is understandable since when laying a law-suit it is always better to go for the deeper collective pocket than those of the individual in the wrong.
The name of the doc I mentioned is dispatches the deathsquads. It can be found here on design.
@ Reasons Voice
I don't know about cold hearted, but I think yours is a certainly static, apologetic and insensitive position.
Insensitive: You compare the plight of Namibian genocide to the inconvenience suffered by Germans as a result of an embargo.
Apologetic: You attempt to equate the atrocities by the Americans in Iraq to the brutalities of the Iraqi police. Also, you accuse those of us who are pointing out European barbarism, past and current, as finger-pointers without questioning the legitimacy of our accusations.
Static: You hold the belief that just because transgressors in the distant past have not paid reparations towards those whom they transgressed against, neither should ones in decent past. You also think current descendants of past transgressors have nothing to do with their ancestors transgressions and should not be held accountable. That's preposterous knowing that wealth accumulation is a multi-generational process on an individual and national level. Therefore, current generations of past transgressors are benefiting from the actions of their ancestors.
Common! With a handle like that, you can do a little better with your logic.
@Reasons Voice. That's a great point. If it were me, (since what they want in retribution is land that was taken from them by the German Cattle farmers, Is take it back. There are ways to redraw borders without conflict. I don't even know if this is considered retribution to begin with.
@Edward; I am at risk of sounding cold hearted here but, No, Compensation/reparation is not due to anyone anywhere. I do not intend to trivialize what happened to your people however they are not alone. Reparations for past wrongs seem on the surface to be a humanitarian answer, but where do we stop? If one goes back through all of history they can find opression and mistreatment inflicted uppon any peoples. Take the Germans as example here. Should the german people be compensated for the unlivable conditions in their country inflicted by the treaty of Versais? Or are they due compensation from Itally for the Roman conquest? Man has harmed man on a grand scale since the dawn of recorded time and beyond. All we can do is move forward and hope for better times. To demand some sort of recompense for past actions from people who had nothing whatsoever to do with said event is folly. It is just a balm on the wounds of the past and truely does not atone for anything.
Many posters here have used this opportunity to point fingers, as always, at European nations. Think of this. Should The nations of the Mediteranean seek remuneration from the decendants of the Persian empire, The Moores, the Greeks, and the Romans? Should Asian and Middle eastern nations get paid by Mongolia? Should Mongolia be paid by the Chineese?
And to those of you attacking the war in Iraq and the US. I will not deny that the US has done some wrong in that nation and that the troops should be withdrawn. However if you are trying to ascribe the civilian death toll to US troops in total you are badly misinformed. The great thing about WikiLeaks and others is that the everyday man can get a glimpse into what goes on in these combat zones. However, the down side is that once people see things like that apache video they assume a knowlege of the entire situation. I will attempt to find a link to a documentary by the BBC that exposed massive human rights violations by the Iraqi police that was fueled by sectarian genocide. More than 100 bodies per day being found tortured and executed by roving squads of Iraqi natives in attempts to eliminate Muslims of another sect. That is where the vast majority of the civilian death toll comes from in Iraq, not from the UN or US troops. While they are not without guilt, it is a safe estimate that 80% of the civilian death toll has been produced by the sectarian fight for supremecy in the new regeim. That is a powder keg ignited by the US invasion and deposition of Sadams regeim. However there is much evidence of Sadams extermination of differing sect Muslims prior to any external involvement. Without looking at all sides and all facts what we end up with is a miopic outlook inwhich we can name the bad guy (the US). That solves nothing.
@Clix, I think "one brouhaha" is optimistic. For the record I did include the climate of early Europe as one component of development. I'm not sure if this has been mentioned ever, but I think that these factors may play into the shape and size of a persons eyes also. If The barbarians bore children with larger eyes it "like babies" was in my opinion as a defense mechanism. The opposite to Asia, which was a much more peaceful society for thousand and thousand of years. I feel even their religions are more peaceful. However, the Asians have their fare share of barbarianism also. Quite a bit actually, in the later years.
Also notice in my first comment I made the connection to these atrocities and far right. It is always the far right. This is were fear resides. Thanks for elaborating on my comments, but I have a wholly original perspective that I would appreciate your opinion on.
What will be the effect of women now playing a more dominant role in today's modern societies? Will it quell or swell these barbaric tendency's?
@Edward, Yes.
@Edward
Yes, I do think it is right for the Namibians to seek compensation/reparation for the damage done to them. The Jews have pursued that avenue successfully. Don't expect the same treatment though. This effort can quickly devolve into the image of a 'freeloading African' once the German are pushed far enough. The Africans of today simply don't have the media muscle to pull off something like this.
@clix / zou would be surprised at our media muscle. A Namibian owns a company with over 19 million social users
@Jeigh
Ok, let's not call it race. However, there is certainly a group behavior that is inherent to people of various parts of this earth. It may start as a social construct, but eventually evolves as inherent behavior of the social group and its members.
I recently read a book called 'Iceman Inheritance' by Michale Bradley. The book tackles the theory you outlined above in your comment. However, instead of assigning a certain behavior, stubborn isolationist, that led to their eventual barbaric behavior, Bradley focuses on the harsh environment of northern Europe that encouraged and rewarded such behavior. Once this barbaric behavior has reached near perfection and unleashed on the rest of the world, other societies were utterly unprepared for its inhumanity.
It certainly is a frightening group of people who arose from northern Europe. We still see many of them behaving in the same blood thirsty manner in North America as they did hundreds of years ago in Europe against each other and other people of the world. Don't get me wrong. The world was not a honky dory place before the northern Europeans introduced their brand of violence. However, history informs us that it was somewhat more forgiving.
Unfortunately, even the well meaning of these group of people around the world have never been faced with this theory of their past, thus we often see the proliferation of right wing and racist movements across Europe and North America at hint of the slightest economic distress. The old beast awakens.
As such, I fear for the near future as the economic distress is bound to increase as a result of the declining American economy and the European one that is highly dependent on it. We may have at least one brouhaha before power is wrestled away from this ruthless bunch.
Let's hope the Chinese will be kinder.
I am Namibian, I want to know your point of view, after watching this documentary, Do you think it is right for the Ovaherero and Nama people of Namibia to claim compensation from the German Government or not?
I am a Namibian too. Perhaps we should point out that as a country we have received compensation.
Did it all start there? Or was it a copy, form way the US handled the North American Indian problem!
@Nat Turner, There is no race, sorry. It has been clearly proven that all colors and creeds are grand children of the Bushmen of Africa. Check out "The Journey of Man" on this site. So now that you know we are all one people, only shaped differently by the environments we developed in; I agree with you, Europeans are a ruthless bunch. Though "The Journey of Man" never goes into this, I believe it was because of what early Europeans endured; from harsher and colder climates (argue if you will, but this is also geologically sound) to greater isolation. After the second migration out of Africa, those people settled in Central Asia. Of that group, some stayed, others went east, to become Asians and Native Americans, and the last group to a long and grueling trip to Europe. These people were most likely stubborn isolationists, who bore more stubborn isolationists, etc, etc, and eventually realized warring with their brothers was often more fruitful then growing potatoes under the snow. Thus was born the people of Europe, and further more, a large population of Americans. Yes, Black Americans also. So Yes, I can easily dispute your claim, and back it up with logical epistemology. Get over the race thing... it's only turning you into an ignorant 19th century German.
After viewing this linked with countless other historical other incidences, can anyone dispute the fact Europeans are a race of devils?
wow germany really is...wow..
in iraq their killing themselves and its thousand of years.. maybe this decade the american inflame it again because of their hungry policy for oil, but their not the one who do it... not like this racist dip****.
@GUNN,
While I appreciate and understand your point, perhaps you could have phrased that differently. There can be no comparisons of a peoples horrors and pain, in the shadow of such darkness. I prefer to look at the similarities than differences; since genocide is genocide no matter how many thousand are murdered. These atrocities were by the hand of a far right government, as was the blood bath for oil in Iraq. Even the underlying themes; land grabs and supremacy, under the cloak of convoluted nationalism, are woven together as tightly as silk.
@ GUNN
It would seem genocide is far more efficient when conducted from the cockpit of an Apache gunship. As for the manipulation of public opinion, well that's got even better; you can sit down and immerse yourself in a highly detailed (and equally inaccurate) 3d version of recent American foreign policy with games such as black ops.
funny old world when you look at it. As for the history of the people of Namibia, well I don't feel I even have the right to comment.
over a million dead and rising in iraq, compared to 65000 in namibia. iraq is far worse. but this is still disgusting, and deedply disturbing
an entire nation does not compare in numbers Gunn. 65,000 is close to 80% of the population at the time.
John: True =o)
Like america in iraq :D whats the difference