Yugoslavia: The Avoidable War
If anyone doubts that it is time for a clear and critical look at Western intervention in the Balkans, consider this: The forces that the US supported in Bosnia and Kosovo were and are closely allied with Osama Bin Laden’s al-Qaeda network.
Bin Laden, himself, was a regular visitor in the office of Bosnia’s President Alija Izetbegovic in early 1993, when the US government was touting his commitment to moderation and multi-ethnic cooperation.
Yugoslavia: The Avoidable War makes a compelling case that Western backing of separatist forces led directly to the outbreak of war. "The intelligence agencies were unanimous in stating that if you recognize Bosnia, it will blow up," George Kenney of the State Department reveals.
Why then did the US proceed to do so sparking four years of savage warfare? How did we end up on the same side as Osama-Bin Laden in Bosnia and Kosovo? Newscasters and columnists continue to refer to Kosovo as a victory for the US, but this documentary shows that the region is infinitely more divided and dangerous than it was when NATO bombing commenced in March of 1999.
The region is more unstable and US troops are likely to be stuck in harm’s way much longer than originally anticipated. Also check out The Death of Yugoslavia.
Happy to see a documentary like this. Growing up we were bombarded by mostly Western media which was always biased against the Serbs. As someone who had long held an interest in Yugoslavia and its break-up I have for some time doing my own little research on whatever happened there in the 90's. I am glad to see a documentary which seem to at least shed some light apart from demonizing the Serbs.
Warren Zimmerman, Richard Holbrook, Madeline Albright, William Walker, and that German foreign minister never paid a price for the serious harm they did. And even the ICTY which was formed hastily and comprised of a number of American never seemed to bring the likes of Alia Izetbegovic, Olic, Trudjman to justice.
Glad to see a different perspective after years and years of only seeing Serb bashing all over in the media.
As a Croatian, I do take pride in my nations historical path. I do acknowledge the Ustase genocide that has been mentioned in the documentary and in the comments and in no way do I approve of it.
However, as ignorant as the uninformed people can be, this documentary inspired me to point out couple of facts that were magically ignored, yet had a significant impact on the Balkan situation.
The first thing that fascinated me is that there was not a single word about the war that was fought on the Croatian territory. I am surprised to learn from this particular documentary portrayed Croatian military action “Storm” as Croatian aggression against Serbs. If one was familiar with a 1000 years of the Balkan history, one would know that the city of Knin has been a part of the Croatian territory from the day of the formation of Croatia as a country. Portraying Croatians as aggressors on their own territory logically makes no absolute sense. It is ridiculous how not a single thing was said about bombing of Zagreb, the Vukovar fight, and many more that the Croats were fighting on their territory. Croatians that lived on the territory of Croatia have not stepped across other countries borders, in the same manner the Serbs have done it. It was Croatian Independence War, Croats fighting and defending their own territory.
Secondly, while Croatia was culturally, politically and economically developing throughout the past, Serbia was under the influence of the Ottoman empire which have left them a poor country, barely developed, which can be seen today as well. After the WW1, instead of creating a country of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians, Serbia has loudly and clearly spoken of the creation of the Great Serbia. The idea of Great Serbia has been going on for a long time, and the tensions are still present today. Croatia and Slovenia were economically the most developed and influential countries in the Balkans, yet all the profits from tourism, factories etc. went straight to Belgrade, and were, for sure not distributed equally. That is the fact, because its not only Croatia and Slovenia who suffered but other Yugoslavian countries as well. Being openly Catholic was an issue as well and as the tensions rose, openly Catholic people were fired from their jobs, people went to churches, or better to say, they were sneaking into it because of such a strong opposition to it.
My parents were college students at the time, and I have heard the stories about them leaving for University in Zagreb everyday, hearing bombing and being surrounded by chaos and panic, which was, btw. not mentioned here. hiding in basements, in their own house, killings and bloodshed…that was their reality and that cannot be neglected and it should not be.
Objectively speaking, this was not the Balkan war. This was a classic Western State war over their interests in the Balkans which has been going on for as long as history can take us back. Serbs were obviously supported by the British because British were the ones who accepted Serbian leaders during the WW1 while they escaped the country into the safety.
Germany has always had interest in Croatia, and this still continues. USA generally wants to prove its domination, and thus calculations have provided them with resolutions of promoting Anti-Serb campaigns, would be more beneficial for their policies.
And there will never be an objective documentary or a story of what has happened on the Balkans, because all the world powers have different interests and one side will always be more represented than the other. However, this documentary does not provide a different side. It provides a subjective perspective which strongly favours Serbs, without a single note of what the JNA has done on the Croatian and Bosnian territories, without a single note on Serbia attacking ever.
I am going to say this one again, it is surprising that Serbs never attacked Croatia (according to this documentary) but they have somehow magically appeared on our territory, raping and killing our women and children, killing our men, yet we are the aggressors for protecting our nation and our country.
As I am continuing to explore more about this subject, taking all the sides in perspective, I would strongly advise people to do the same. This way, documentaries like this would be avoided and the world could be introduced to both terrors from Croats and from Serbs, but also the struggles and fights to protect one nations territory from the perspective of both sides.
It seems to me that Yugoslavia was much stronger than having 5 independent separate countries. In Sarajevo it appeared that all the different people were getting along very well, they didn't want to break up Yugoslavia and go to war. It appears that a minority of right wing people (encouraged by the Germans) in each country were the root cause of all the trouble and they were able to stir up enough uneducated people to get things going. All sides did horrible things, they are all guilty, once the killing starts it's hard to stop, everybody wants revenge. Nationalistic uneducated people are easy to manipulate and incite into violence. I hope it doesn't happen (anybody who's seen the kind of uneducated racist people who support Donald Trump and how easy it is make them violent) but there may be some very serious trouble in the United States when he loses the election. They blame Mexicans, Black Americans, reporters, Asians, Muslims, gay people, anyone who has an accent, or isn't white enough, anyone with a college education "elitist" and I'm sure if there were enough Serbs, Croats, Slovenians, and Bosnians, they would blame all of you too, for all their economic problems. You'll notice the one group he doesn't go after is the Jews, that would be the end of him, but groping women is OK. Although I'm sure his "followers" don't like Jewish people anymore than the rest of them.
My point is the economy. When there are bad economic times people start looking for someone to blame, and that blame never goes to the people who are guilty. So how bad was the economy in Yugoslavia before the break up? Who was really causing the bad economy? God? Or was someone inside or outside Yugoslavia or both trying to bring on hard economic times as in the case of Chili in the 1960's? (In that case it was the CIA along with a couple of multinational corporations.) And now is the economy in the separate countries better than before the break up? I just can't help but think that a small group of rich people caused all this to happen and manipulated the people into going to war. Somebody was making money on the weapons, but it's a lot more than that. What happened to Kosovo? Is it a territory of the United States now like Puerto Rico? Who really gained by this war?
As a westerner and someone who has spent a fair bit of time in the Balkans, I do believe the west influenced the outcome for their own ends and I do believe the Serbs have been unfairly demonised for far to long now. My own opinion is that all parties involved committed atrocities and there are truths and lies on all sides. I would say do not let the west continue to devide you, the only way to rise up from these wars is to put them behind you and learn to forgive, you will never forget and neither should you as it should never be repeated. You were once strong and successful because you were united in trade with each other and did not need much from the outside and you could have this again, but your hatred prevents this and you are harming new generations who do not need to live in poverty because there is no forgiveness. Don't make your hatred your children's hatred! The EU is not the answer to your prosperity, you have that in your own hands and yet you all refuse to see it. Turn to each other as independent countries and work together to rebuild your own success, instead of waiting for a miracle from joining the EU, you will be waiting a very long time this!
You have a good point. Thank you!
The problem is there are countries in the balkans who are genuinely trying to rebuild and establish themselves as independent while there are others who are pretending to and behind closed doors are chiseling the word genocide off tombstones because they refuse to accept their past. I disagree the Serbians are currently demonised rather the truth has prevailed, which many Serbians do not like. Hence they cry demonisation when all the West is doing is condemning ethnic cleansing and genocide as they have done for the Nazis and the communists.
The problem is there are countries in the balkans who are genuinely trying to rebuild and establish themselves as independent while there are others who are pretending to and behind closed doors are chiseling the word genocide off tombstones because they refuse to accept their past. I disagree the Serbians are currently demonised rather the truth has prevailed, which many Serbians do not like. Hence they cry demonisation when all the West is doing is condemning ethnic cleansing and genocide as they have done for the Nazis and the communists.
if this was really about ethnic cleansing then why was nato absent during the Rwanda massacre during the same time period? And why have they not intervened in Burma over the last two decades? And why did they not say one word against al qaedas oppressive regime for 30 years after the soviets pulled out until 9/11? Grow up and stop believing everything your told. Instead start examining history to find real motives.
To say that this documentary is a " Serbian propaganda" is ridiculous! You have testimonies of Lord Peter Carington, Lord David Owen and other top UN representatives who were directly involved in the events that occurred in Yugoslavia in those years. Anyone who thinks that those men are spreading "serbian propaganda" needs to get his head checked. This is a well balanced documentary that puts some light on a "murky affairs" that resulted in a breakup of Yugoslavia and that tragic war!
To suggest that Lord Owen is a viable and unbiased source is more astonishing. Lord Owen was responsible for prolonging the war as opposed to ending it. This provides no light on the supposedly murky affairs of Yugoslavia rather serves as more Serbian propaganda. To discover real truth read the like of Marcus Tanner :)
To suggest that Lord Owen is a viable and unbiased source is more astonishing. Lord Owen was responsible for prolonging the war as opposed to ending it. This provides no light on the supposedly murky affairs of Yugoslavia rather serves as more Serbian propaganda. To discover real truth read the like of Marcus Tanner :)
this sounds absolutely ridiculous !!!!!
The film is pure pro-Serb propoganda, however
some people below say there was no Croatian ethnic cleansing when it is so easy to disprove such revisionist nonsense just by searching on Google:
* Lašva Valley ethnic cleansing
and
* Ahmici Massacre
Let's be clear: ALL sides, Croat, Muslim, and Serbian were involved in atrocities, massacres, and ethnic cleansing
please name one time where muslims were involved in ethnic cleansing? they didn't even have the means, weapons etc. and were always for a multi ethnic yugoslavia.
Yes they did. Western allied countries under the cover of an arms embargo and influx of foreign fighters were drafting in fighters and arms from Arab countries.
Muslims forces participated in the largest ethnic cleansing of Serbs in Krajina with US assistance and forces under Nasar Orics command were raiding and slaughtering nearby ethnic Serb villigaes.
The reason Serb forces despite warnings entered Srebrenica was because the his Muslim battalion was using it as a safe haven that was actually calculated with Alija Izetbegović and Clinton as a pretext for NATO intervention against the Serbs coupled with previous other false flag attacks.
To suggest that all sides were equally to blame would be to suggest that the Jews and Nazis were equally to blame for the Holocaust it is absolute rubbish. The Serbian militia had one of the strongest armies in Europe and invaded unarmed Croatian territories and committed mass ethnic cleansing against Bosnian Muslims. Even their ally Montenegro decided to vote against them and form an independent country.
To suggest that all sides were equally to blame would be to suggest that the Jews and Nazis were equally to blame for the Holocaust it is absolute rubbish. The Serbian militia had one of the strongest armies in Europe and invaded unarmed Croatian territories and committed mass ethnic cleansing against Bosnian Muslims. Even their ally Montenegro decided to vote against them and form an independent country.
So much false evidence whole film.
Facts:
-war started Yugoslavian national army under control of Miloševi?
-share of Serbian nationality high ranking officers in YNA in 1990. was more then 70%
-Dubrovnik was attacked by YNA and Montenegro army under command of Serbian generals
-Croats never attacked Boka Kotorska
-there was no ethnical cleansing by Croatian army
-and so on and so on
Everything was proven on International courts, not to mention that it is written in historical books.
One more important fact is that nobody wanted war, but Serbians wanted power, money, natural resources, in general everything from all form Yugoslavian states
Please read historycal facts and the truth will come to you.
this film is false, however, you are wrong to say that Croat forces were not involved in Ethnic cleansing, just read about the Ahmici massacre.
The description of this documentary is a total joke. To make false claims as such is an insult to everyone intelligence.
It is the wrong claim to say that everyone had weapons. This is not true! At the very beginning of the war the only parties that actually had weapons were Serbs and Sloveniens. This is obvious due to the fact that all the economic and military power was in Belgrade. In difference to Slovenia, UK & other western countries supported them before their altercation began.
Watch both documentaries 'The death of Yugoslavia' and 'Yogoslavia: The avoidable war' to get an idea from all perspectives.
Strange. I didn't find the presentation or style at all confusing. I suspect those who did find it confusing were those who found that it did not fit with their prejudices.
Santa, are you just going to make a big series of meaningless ad hominem posts, or are you going to post some contradictory evidence? How many different ways can you scream, "It's Serbian propaganda!!" before you actually present an intelligent argument?
...and I know plenty of people that have seen this film and changed their mind about how they perceive the wars in the former Yugoslavia. The only people that really hate it are the folks that were allied with Hitler in WW2. That should tell you something about this film's detractors.
Shame !
This was rare place where selection of the films depended on pure reason and intelligence... even in case of those with conspiratorial thematics.
Now, I read intro of this pro-Karadži?/pro-Miloševi?, Serbian whitewashing, apologetic disgusting crap and I find out that Americans and Bin-Laden jointly supported "war criminal" Izetbegovi? in his "jihad" against poor Serbs and west !?
You know that motto from FOX News "Fair and Balanced", well in proved and prosecuted Genocide and war crimes opinion doesn't matter, there is NO balanced view of any war let alone Bosnian - only facts, evidences, proofs, witness testimonies, and judgements !!!
My personal knowledge of the history of the lands is limited entirely to heresay. The heresay of those whom either have an agenda of their own or have been influenced by the agendas of others. To wit I would now include this documentary. It is the same old same old, death and disparity for fleating gains by which one party attempts to obtain a posession of another party, be that power - money - land. Given the history of this area I believe one would be hard pressed to find a legitimate defender, and it seems motivating people to become triger pullers was very easy. Bottom line, I challange anyone to examine Yugoslavia by going at least back to the time when the general populus were given the opportunity to own land and produce a name of a family which lawfully obtained (purchased or awarded, not by ill gotten gains after force such as WWI and WWII, nor by squatters) land and always maintained and still retains that lawful ownership. This region of the world is like a hotel who's owners appeared to abandone and the tennants (past present and future) seem readily willing to entertain the idea they can assume ownership by force against other tennants, ridiculous, although certainly entertaining to some.
Look below for more Croatian Nazi propaganda that is incapable of criticizing this documentary with any specific examples so all it can do is make up a false history without presenting any documentation.
Completely fabricated scenario can't be criticized point-by-point - which makes your request a sly attempt to induce a debate where there is non!
I have never seen this kind of scenario of war in Yugoslvia until now. This documentary is foolish, pathetic and at the momments funny. This documentary is bunch of constructed lies. We Croatians wanted to live out of Yugoslavia (which was dominated by Serbs) wich is natural idea all of nations in the world, just like Slovenians and Albanians and others, but Serbs didnt allow that because of their faschist chetniks plan "Na?ertanije" which present politics of Great Serbia - and Yugoslavia was Great Serbia for them. Has anybody ask himself why Serbs lives in Croatia, Vojvodina, Monte Negro, Kosovo and other republics - it is plan of settleing Serbs since 150 years ago in their neighbourhood and making them dominating in politics, economy and in other sides in that conutries. Croatians, Slovenians and others couldt tolerate this anymore - in Croatia we had referendum of independence - 99% people was for declare themself for freedom - we decided to make anything to make our dream come true - to have own republic. Yugoslav national army was under domination of Serbs and that army desist on Serbs side united with their civil nationals settled in Croatia long time ago exactly because of one reason - making Great Serbia. We broke that faschist ideas and established our free republic. Croatia today rests on the foundations of anti-fascist and has no connection and is firmly committed to an unprecedented anti-fascism.
with the same Checkered Flag Croatia flew when working on the same side as Hitler in World War II, why? WHY? Why didn't you choose a new flag?
The criticism of this doc is just pathetic. All I read is "It's Serbian propaganda!" and I couldn't watch more than 15 minutes" and "It's too one sided".... Please please please SOMEBODY point out factual errors. The way I see it, there's just a bunch of decendents of Hitler's allies crying because their BS propaganda war to demonize the Serbian people has been revealed. Sorry. The truth has been revealed.
Maybe there are no factual errors. Who would know. I believe the criticism is partly born from the fact that the documentary is poorly presented and lacks clarity to the point where it is difficult to consider it credible. I think for many people this makes the subject matter very difficult to comment on and debate and hence they have dismissed it. It is very difficult to determine if something is factual if it is very unclear. Could it be that the criticism is in part a natural reaction to a confusing presentation rather than... pathetic.
It's Serbian propaganda!
And: "The truth has been revealed." , really, what "truth", and "revealed" in what way, with what arguments, evidences,... ?
You make a "documentary" with, at best, questionable motives, and at worst as obvious apologia, worst propaganda tool for whitewashing of war crimes committed in the name of "All Serbs in one State" (a.k.a. Great Serbia).
So, it's Serbian propaganda film, and hardly anyone felt any change of hart, or slightest change of his/her opinion after watching this crap.
Just seeing some of these comments makes me want to vomit. Being so closed minded as to believe the mainstream western media painted picture as the only truth and blindly scream "genocide", "war criminal", "mass murder", is just stupid. West needed an unstable region in Europe for their strategic positioning in relation to Soviet Union. They destroyed Yugoslavia trough nazi relics of the WW2- Ustasha (Croats, sucessors of Ante Pavelic), and their collaborators in Bosnia -bosnian Muslims, by promising them their own, ethnically clean countries. The Serbs were in the way, so they must be the bad guys. Yeah, rapists, killers and slaughterers of children. It seems only women and children were on the opposite side. How sad. Boo hoo. Wake the fu++ up and read a book or two, before posting some ignorant, half baked, redneck comment.
American government got away with killing american people on american soil, and invading an innocent country as an reply to the "terrorist threat" they invented in the process. The media made it possible. The same media you get your information about Yugoslavia from. Nothing to worry about there, yep.
I have travelled many times in Yugoslavia and post Yugoslavia as well. I can't still say who is to blame, who is the perpetrator and who is the victim. (Although heroic deeds like Serbian shelling civilians of Dubrovnik or Sarajevo are etched on my retina.) I have known people that were good neighbours but tried to kill each other when the politicians said so. This documentary is very very one sided, almost religiously one sided. See it, but be aware the a lot said here is to cower up and lessen the huge burden/guilt cast on the Serb people.
this documentary looks like it was from before the war LOL
Propaganda has it's uses in war, as it does in it's cradle, politics.
What a mockery of a documentary, full of half truths and one side views. If you really want to learn something about a wars in ex-yugoslavia watch The Death of Yugoslavia. Its full of interviews of all major players of that time and it would give you a fairly good picture how things really happened.
Right! There is liar out there and it's called Gen. Charles G. Boyd and he wrote "Making Peace With The Guilty".
I have stoped to watch this Serbian propagand movie after 15 minutes. They started 4 wars in ex Yugoslavia (In Slovenia, Croatia, BIH, and Kosovo) and each they have lost. Now they blame Germans, typicall Serbian propagande. They have myth of great Serbia, but let them dream.
Also there is one thing it the first 10 minutes of the movie that is truth.It is that Croatia and Slovenia wanted to became indepentent. The consituiton law from 1974 defined them as a Republics and gave them posiblity to become independent, or to become part of confederation of equal partners. But in ex YU, only Serbs had the special rights:for example in the army, police, od other goverment jobs, more than 70% percent of employees were Serbs. In the UDBA, KOS (and other yu KGBs) the % was even bigger. So during the 45 years, Serbs were in the top positions, they made propaganda, they had diplomacy, they could send their children to universities easier than others. Nevertheless, Slovenia and Croatia contributed to the exYU GDP, was the biggest, far more then Serbian and other Republic together. So one reason why Serbs continued 4 wars, was because they felt that they were losing their special position in this artificial country. And to all those that are talking about Croatian as a Nazi supporters, they have to now (they now but they don't talk about), that the best brigades of Partisans were Croatian Parisans brigades. Also Serbs had their Kvislinges like other (Chetniks), but as I mentioned they had propaganda, an they pretend that they are always on the right side. What concerns curently is that they have not changed their politics, they have 2 politics: 1 for outside (propagande for EU etc), and one for inside (you should ask how Hungarian, Croatians or Albanians live in this country). These people didn't forget what receant wars done to them, real sad.
Well, if I was a Croat like you I would have preferred watching our own propaganda films as well!
p.s.and you are doing a great propaganda job yourself!
But you prefer Serbian propaganda films instead !
Both are propaganda constructed by elites who wanted more money trough war/or in your case secession -those were the way to go. Ordinary ppl is the one who suffers the price. Nationalism and religion were the tools for mobilization not the cause.
You are absolutely right, only while that might, to some extent, exonerate ordinary people, but not nationalist ideologues themself, and there were aplenty of those among intellectuals and academicians Serbs and Croats. Still, culpability can and should be assigned properly, since war and crimes are meticulously documented. There are no many "unknowns" in YU wars.
Watch "the weight of chains" (canadian movie, you can find it on torrent)
Watch "srebrenica - a town betrayed" (norweigan movie, youtube)
Watch "sarajevo riccochet" (norwaigan movie, youtube)
Watch "es begann mit einer lüge", eng "it began win a lie" (german movie, youtube)
Watch "la guerra infinita 1&2", eng "infinite war 1&2" (italian movie, youtube)
Watch "file srebrenica - crimes against serbs", aka "srebrenica - what really happened", ger "srebrenica wie es wirklich war" (swiss/serbian movie, yourtube)
Watch "stolen kosovo", cze "uloupené kosovo" (czech movie, youtube)
All of these documentry movies (except "file srebrenica - crimes against serbs" which was made in collaboration with swiss reported and journalist) are made by non-serbs! You think serbian government paid for all those movies?! hahahaha... serbian government would do anything to stop those movies being seen by serbs, they close YT accounts of those people who upload it, they even didnt want to buy a copyright for those movies so they can show it to serbian people as they are pro-usa and pro-eu, they dont give a f*** about serbs and serbia overall, they just want to enter european union no matter what they have to do on that way, even if that means recognition of kosovo independence... ask any serb in serbia how he lives and does he likes president and this government... and some people here saying serbian goverment paid for those movies to be made?!?! dont twist the facts! western propaganda did a job, forbidding all tv stations and tv reporters to tell a truth to german, british, italian, american, canadian, france etc. people... do you know how many nato or UN soldiers left kosovo because of what they saw during their presence there? how many of them couldnt watch horrific albanian terrorist crimes against unarmed serbs and serbian culture which is 10 centuries older than usa when it was discovered in 15th century? how many of those soldiers said "we've bombed the wrong ones"?
All of you who watch BBC, CNN, FOX and tvs like that have no right to speak or tell anything about war in yugoslavia, no matter what side you defend!
just watch movie THE WEIGHT OF CHAINS (movie discovering how war in yugoslavia has began at 1st place, how long it was planned before it actually happened etc) and maybe you will see how stupid you were before
@?????? ?????,
I went to view "The Weight Of Chains" on an Europeen site.
It sure has that non "Partisan" flavor.
Not biases like all docu should be.
And above all, it tells the historical facts on how all this came to be.
Because, even though I once worked (Early 80's) with a guy who came from Yugoslavia, we never talked that much about it.
Everything considered, he left Yugoslavia as he entered university in UK. And he retired some 8 years back...
What I wanted to say is that it is apparent in the "Weight of Chain" that the author doesn't engage into the apology of any of the parties involved in that war. In fact, he acknowledge the serbian war crimes and point out the one of the other factions as the croatians.
Everything considered, you were right to state that this "The Avoidable War" docu is that bad that it just gotta be misleading or for the least, biaised.
In my opinion however, there is no reason what so ever to commit any war crimes, what so ever.
In "The Weight Of Chains", they mentions historical facts that the Serbs were once empaled for any reasons by the Ottoman dysnaty... Why bring back that sort of thing in modern age?
Something that drives guys like Slobo out of control and induce sedition & lynching. There are other means to cope.
All nations went through bad times and good ones.
-Boiling peoples in frying oil, it's been done.
I still have to watch it a second time.
Sometimes, it goes too fast in the movie, don't understand everything...
Pierre.
If you watched carefully, Weight of Chain is focused on criticism of globalization, capitalism, power of multinational corporations who use and play with politics in weak unstable countries so they can make a fertile ground for expansion and more profit. May sound as conspiracy theory to you but it is a very popular and common theory in social science.
Can I find these movies in English subtitles? I'm doing some personal research on the former Yugoslavia and I'd like to see it.
If you enjoy pro-Miloševi?/pro-Karadži?/pro-Mladi?, Serbian whitewashing, apologia, and disgusting crap like Nemanja mentioned above and suggested for watching, well, then go get it.
But I have to say that in case of proved and prosecuted Genocide and war crimes, committed from Slovenia to Kosovo almost in entirety by Serbian forces, opinion doesn't matter, there is NO balanced view of war in Slovenia/Bosnia/Croatia/Kosovo - only facts, evidences, proofs, witness testimonies, and judgements !!!
yeah don't bother to mention that tribunal is ad hock organization, when and why it was created, by whom or how subjective it is. Maybe you believe in some universal force of justice and honor as well but the truth is probably not so pink. Mladic is a war criminal but so is Gotovina. Such easy use of word genocide this days actually diminish the horror of it from the WW2 so some future generation will probably have no idea how bad it really was> increases the chances for it to happen again. It is the insult to all the ppl who died from the real ww2 genocide. There was no systematic predetermined plan to extinguish ethnic group.What happened in Srebrenica was the act of the mad man and Serbs couldn't see it coming any more then EU forces stationed there. Unless they have?
enough with this conspiracy theory already. no one made some secret conspiracy against Germany in the WWII. people fought against Germany because they were forced to. same with Serbia here. if serbs will continue to act selfish and childish, people will fight them again and again till they learn to respect they neighbors and be an equal part in the Balkans, just as anybody else.
The most ludicrous conspiracy theory I've heard is the "Serbian conspiracy". Supposedly every single Serb knows they all are a bunch of genocidal maniacs hellbent on creating some sort of "Greater Serbia".
Ask any Serb in the world if the Serbs in Bosnia wanted to create some sort of genocide against the Muslim people, they'll all tell you, "No, we were only defending ourselves and trying to remain safely part of the country they have been born and raised - Yugoslavia - rather than live in a Muslim dominated new state." That's one amazing conspiracy. You have to give the Serbs credit. Outside of a handful of folks that had been previously certified as insane, not one Serb has broken their silence and admitted it was genocide they wanted all the time.
Try and use some simple reasoning. If it was right for Yugoslavia to fall apart and the country to be broken down so the different ethnic groups could be free, it only makes sense that Bosnia - virtually a miniature Yugoslavia - should also be dismantled so the various ethnic groups could be free.
Why did the West want Bosnia to stay intact with radical Muslim leadership at the helm? Look no further than Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia was refusing to buy billions of dollars in US fighter planes unless the US backed the Bosnian Muslims and their land grab for all of Bosnia when the Serbs legally lived on 64.5% of the region before the war even started, and they wanted nothing to do with breaking away from the protection of Serbia after what the Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Croats had done to them in the Holocaust of WW2.
The stupid war should have never happened. Bosnia was never a country before, and it's a joke of a country now. It'll never last. It doesn't take a lot of research to understand why the Serbs fought for Krajina and Republika Srpska. Just read a little history of WW2 in the region, and then take a look at a map that features the ethnic breakdown of the regions in the former republics.
"if serbs will continue to act selfish and childish" have u not learned anything from your Hitler? I think you have, you sound just like him. Generalizations and stereotypes attributes of the poor minds. "people will fight them again and again" and what are they? animals? "till they learn to respect they neighbors" Like any country respects theirs? And how will you "teach" them anyway? Bringing peace with more bombs? Or brain washing medias?
Yugoslavija was the third most powerful country behind US and Russia in the 80s, because of this specific parties who have an $$$ interests, US, UN, Nato tried to do everything in their power to dis-stabilize the region. Why didn't the people of Yugoslavija who were of different religions revolt 40 years prior, because everything was going well. It was a snake move by US to set up religion conflicts and make the civilians of the same nation kill themselves, pretty smart move from the US. They probably spent a fraction of what they would have spent if they had to fully invade the country themselves. The way they did it was through propaganda and religion warfare and the civilians of Yugoslavija fell for it. Its sad this happened because it was truly one of the best places and times to live in former YU. People need to stop commenting who obviously received their information from CNN, BBC, and other foreign mediums.
One sided propaganda bullshit, and nice try for Serbs to once again present total defeat of their politics and battles as "world conspiracy" and to trivialise their huge share of guilt for the evil they spred over the ex-Yugoslavia in the nineties
Well, the reality in the field proves you can't fight Islamic financed corrupted western politicians using honorable US troops as a mercenaries to achieve Islamic imperialism.
My God,what a stupid movie,just clasics for serbs,the best propaganda of lies...lol...
I hope you never realize how s*upid your sentence actually is..lol
Dont waste your time watching this bullshit documentary, made and paid by serbian government to try to change the history but no one can change the history
I agree! Better read documents and watch propaganda materials financed by the rich Islamic Oil countries as they managed to hire real Washington politicians and hire top Hollywood production companies with real movie stars in it. It's the much higher quality production.
I watched the first 15 minutes of this documentary and had to stop. I felt it was very unclear. I did not know who the interviewees were althought they were talking like experts. I felt the narrator was making large sweeping statements with no substance and it seemed very disjointed and non contiguous as the subject was changing so rapidly.
So, i had a look at the comments about this documentary. Many of the the opinions expressed are very strong. The questions of bias and the content are debated.
Unfortunately I cannot join this debate as i have not watched the documentary in its entirety. But i feel i must make the comment that the lack of clarity presented in what i saw of this documentary lead me to dismiss it. For me a lack of clarity leads to a lack of credibility.
this is BS..nobody will tell me how it was , especially distort it like this is. I KNOW, I was there ... fuj
guys,if serbia and other coutriesare "equal",then why are there 1600 years of jail for serbs totally,120 for croatians and 16 for muslims?
the world is AGAINST serbia and you can not denie it!
BTW,anybody hard for tuzla and sarajevo?
JNA was peacefully leaving the cities,and BANG! ambush!
They were shot by bazukas,snipers,AK-47s and TANK MINES.
The crime on Markale market,when it got hited by the missle had come from MUSLIM side of the city.
Well, whose fault is that you haven't had enough money to hire Washington politicians like your rich opponents have; you don't expect those US politicians to became millionairess on their salaries alone?!?!
"guys,if serbia and other coutriesare "equal",then why are there 1600 years of jail for serbs totally,120 for croatians and 16 for muslims?"
You pointed this fact well, now everybody can derive his/her conclusion based on who made most of the crimes, who did what, etc.
It's easy:
- 1600 yrs. of jail for Serbian perpetrators,
- 120 yrs. of jail for Croatian perpetrators,
- 16 yrs. of jail for Bosnian (Bosnian-Muslim) perpetrators !
(I didn't check Velenka's numbers)
this isnt a documentary. it doesnt have a neutral stance on issues nor chronology. it is nothing more than a propaganda. i recommend not to watch this for it contains serious indoctrination.
Because it doesn't have a neutral stance it isn't a documentary? What is it then? - a bicycle? :D
Nice argument, Ana. Gee whiz! You provide a dynamite argument for not watching this .... er "bicycle". Gosh.... thanks for the advice. Your very insightful analysis has been a terrific contribution to the conversation.
This is the mentality we're up against here folks. Old girl says don't watch. So don't watch :D
The war in Yugoslavia was never about free and independent Croatia, Bosnia, Slovenia, or about Serbs wanting to create Great Serbia. People were hypnotized and sent to die for something they thought they believed in, and war is war PEOPLE DIE soldiers, civilians, children, it does not matter, what counts is the end result!!! PROFIT !!!
In my opinion the truth is that a few individuals initiated the war (Tudman, Milosevic, Alija…) four their personal gain and trough help of the western world (U.S.A., E.U. (or United States Of Europe)
whose interests in Balkan are strategic, new market, cheap labor, in short 6 new colonies!!!
As an American I would strongly support Russian intervention in the next round of the struggle to liberate ?????? and ???????? from the claws of Islam. I hope that we stay out of it. Russia is again on the rise militarily and the EU is wet pants scared of them (not to mention dependent on Russia for energy). If we do stay out of it how many think that NATO will be bold enough to bomb Russian troops and advisors in support of their Muslim shoe shine boys? 15,000 RU nuclear warheads and 12,000 tanks says they won't do squat without the USA.
Kosovo and Metohija are Serbian Forever
go back to school this are grown up things
never
this woman seems to think that yugoslavia existed for time imemorial. there was no such thing before 1948. she may aswell blame the league of nations for being stupid enough to force different ethnicities and religions to be in one nation.....under a SERBIAN king mind you. this documemtary is only feeding half truths, and omitting very important history.
and concerning serbs existing in bosnia for 1500 years...total rubbish...serb refugees were slowly pushed west by the ottoman assault, and this is how serbs ended up in bosnia and particularly the krajina of croatia. krajina being indicative of the edges of christendon (krajina=edge, border). hence its name. maria teresa(from wat i remember) settled serbs in this region in particular to bolster resistance against ottoman onslaughts. the region, and indeed much of bosnia were croat.
In the year 1990 we had a referendum in Slovenia and 98% of the people voted for independence. So if anyone would like to call us separatists just go ahead and do it. But then I guess we should call the founding fathers of the United Stats of America separatists as well.
labeling someone as a trouble maker is far easier than sharing their pain and sorrow, we must try to see the whole truth and understand who loses and who gains.
such a shame , when a horrifying number of suppressed humans try to find a way out of an obvious slaughter, we start labeling them as terrorists or members of the out cast clans,while we, as a league of nation, have done nothing more than s*** to help them out of the miseries.
Yeah, you _know_ the other documentary is better yet you haven't even watched this one by your own admission. Makes a lot of sense.
I couldn't help wondering why would someone even think about making a documentary like this one. I didn't really bother watching the whole movie because it was enough for me to see that it's blaming Slovenia and Croatia for separatism and talking about the declaration of independence as a crime. The only thing one needs to do is to read the first paragraph of Yugoslav constitution from 1974. It says that every people of Yugoslavia has the right to secession. I'm only feeling sorry for those who have actually watched the movie and believed everything they said. I can't tell you if there were any other big mistakes but reading from other comments, I guess first 20 minutes have been enough.
And by the way, I think the Death of Yugoslavia, while not being a great documentary, is still a much better movie than this one and it's worth watching.
*Sigh* Yet another misinformed critic. Yes the Yugoslav constitution did allow for secession. What you completely skim over is - Why didn't the secessionist republics follow the legal course of action for secession. There were guidelines put down by the former Yugoslavia, and the Helsinki Accords. All of this was ignored by Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia....and the big question nobody seem to be able to answer...
Why were Croatian and Muslim parts of the former Yugoslavia allowed to break away from Yugoslavia, but the Serb areas not allowed to remain part of Yugoslavia? It's just a long string of double standards.
At the time the republics began to split the Serbs lived on about 15-20% of Croatia in the area known as the Krajina. They lived there for centuries. In Bosnia where the Serbs were the absolute majority for most of the regions history prior to the Ustashe holocaust of WW2, the Serbs still lived on and owned 64.5% of the land - being the rural people.
Croatia can split from Yugoslavia.
Krajina CANNOT split from Croatia.
Bosnia can split from Yugoslavia.
Republika Srpska CANNOT split from Bosnia.
Kosovo can split from Serbia.
Northern Kosovo CANNOT split from Kosovo.
The double standard here is mind numbing. Only an idiot or a Serbaphobe couldn't see it.
Memories were still fresh of the horrible atrocities and holocaust leveled against the Serbs by the Croatian, Bosnian Muslim, and Albanian Axis allies of Hitler from WW2. The Serbs concerns should have been near the top of the priority list when discussing the separations of these peoples.
If the Serbs concerns are completely ignored, you pretty much guarantee they're going to fight. Never forget.
Bosnian Muslims conned world opinion by stage managing certain "bombing" events in their own held territorries. Bosnia should not be allowed to become an Islamic State in the heart of Europe.
It's unbelievable how easily US & Western opinion were easily manipulated.
Well, if you were an influential politician and you were paid so much Petrol-Dollar "under the table" you would bomb your own mother!
p.s.sorry, nothing personal.
The word 'propaganda' has been thrown around here randomly without any regard for its actual meaning. Without in anyway wishing to undermine the sufferings of Bosnian muslims during the war, the documentary 'The Resistance of Bosnia was Heard up to the Skies' conforms much more closely to true propaganda than does 'The Avoidable War'. Just compare the two in terms of style, tone, and factual content.
Propaganda:
1. information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc.
2. the deliberate spreading of such information, rumors, etc.
3. the particular doctrines or principles propagated by an organization or movement.
And what makes this film propaganda is turning the official, historically accepted facts about the war upside down for the sake of some new artificial history. It does that by denying the worst atrocities (the side doesn't really matter) and generally not mentioning important facts which wouldn't fit well the agenda. Also there are few (deliberate) mistakes which can be easily proven with some work (I will do this soon), and many questionable facts.
But the worst thing is that this film doesn't even try to think about people who suffered on all sides. It doesn't try to think how the tormented survivors will feel when seeing it. It was done from a far away. Some little cosy diaspora country. The film is just saying that everything was in vain. That the West is fault. Any everyone was against the Serbs, and because of that Serbs had the right to to anything.
But guess what. The West didn't kill us. We killed each other. We pulled the triggers. If Yugoslavia was so good and prosperous, if it was so good to live there, if everybody loved each other, it wouldn't collapse and end in this bloody dirty war. The war happened because it wasn't so and because there were many people who believed propaganda like this film. Because it was easier to hate and kill than to love and work.
And this is what makes this film dangerous. Although it is trying to disguise as an anti-war and pacifist film, it isn't such. It will make one side angry, and it will deceive the other side. It's inflammatory at best.
Everything should be free to question, but it must be done in an honest and smart way. Not like this.
Here's some friendly advice - Take a little more time between your postings to get your thoughts in order, and your facts straight before you post again. Your stuff is at the same time sort of rambling, and really easy to take apart. There's not much substance to your posts. It's just emotional reactions.
You start out by defining propaganda. That's fine I guess. Pretty accurate cut and paste job on your part. Nice work.
Next you go on to say our film presents an artificial new history to the dissolution of the former Yugoslavia without being able to point out any specific inaccuracies on our part. Don't just say, "You're wrong!" Be specific and point out where we're wrong, and if you can, please explain how we're wrong. I'm very open to being corrected, and I only seek the Truth. So far you haven't provided me even the tiniest evidence that we may have made mistakes in this film.
Then you complain the film doesn't take into account how the "tormented survivors" will feel when they see it. Huh? What does this have to do with setting the record straight? There are "tormented survivors" on all sides. Are you once again suggesting Serbian "tormented survivors" voice not be heard? Is nothing short of total silence from the Serbian position acceptable to you?
You're really quick to mention the myths of Srebrenica, but we're all supposed to pretend Nasir Oric's forces didn't stage several massacres of Serb villages from that so-called "Safe Haven". I suppose the 'tormented survivors' of Oric's raids don't matter because they're Serbian.
"Everything was in vain"? What does that mean? "All the west's fault"? I would never say it was all the west's fault, and neither does the film. You may be having problems comprehending the context and message of the film. One can point out the ways the West helped fuel the fires of the war, and one can point out the ways the West helped prolong or even ensure that there would be a war. It doesn't mean you're saying it was 'all the west's fault' and we make no attempt to say that. However, the West was a major player in the wars, and that cannot be denied. The film specifically points out what that role was. The West's hands are far from being clean. That's not the fault of the film just because it reveals that fact. Don't shoot the messenger.
"The Serbs had the right to do anything"? This line is just garbage. Nowhere in the film do we even come close to even attempting to make this ridiculous argument. Why even make up a statement like this? Do you really believe this furthers your argument? This is something a child would say.
You wrote..."But guess what. The West didn't kill us. We killed each other. We pulled the triggers. If Yugoslavia was so good and prosperous, if it was so good to live there, if everybody loved each other, it wouldn't collapse and end in this bloody dirty war. The war happened because it wasn't so..." So in other words, "If people were happier they wouldn't kill each other." Well, no kidding. Thank you Captain Obvious. You wrote..."Because it was easier to hate and kill than to love and work." Yes, but why? Our film attempts to answer that question.
You claim the film will make one side angry. I'm sure it will. That side paid millions and millions of dollars to PR companies seeking to have the Serbian side so demonized that it's voice would be silenced forever, but guess what? The Serbian voice was NOT silenced. The Serbian point of view HAS been expressed, and THAT'S what makes 'one side angry'. The deception is over, and some people just can't handle it. Tough.
Everything is open to question, and I stand behind this film as an honest questioning of the West's official history when it comes to the dissolution of the former Yugoslavia.
Maybe you're just hasty about your conclusions, and like to see things in a way that goes with your agenda. You're also increasingly personal. Very negatively, and somewhat rude. It doesn't surprise me though. I wouldn't rush so much.
If you would read more carefully, you'd also read the content in the brackets. I do plan to put down all the false info, but I have no intention to do that without some proofs, as you did in a film. And this takes time.
Yes, my reaction is emotional, and with a good reason. But this doesn't exclude rational thought. If you'd be a little more like that, you'd see that I never said or suggested that those things shouldn't be investigated, or that the Serbian side shouldn't be heard. These are once again, your unfounded accusations.
All I'm saying, that is completely inaccurate, unethical and generally wrong to call Srebrenica massacre a myth. I really don't understand how a human being could say something like that. Even worse is to relativize such crimes. And even suggest that it was justified or/and expected to turkey-shoot prisoners in Srebrenica because of what those radical muslim troops did to Serbs.
You could've made film about that! You could've shown what happened after Operation Storm. You could've explained what happened in Kosovo. But what you did is you denied Vukovar, Sarajevo, Srebrenica...The film did exactly this, what you were trying to prove that happened to Serbs.
The Serbia has come over the lost wars. We now live in peace. Why can't you?
In other words... you got nothing :)
Are you purposely trying to be obtuse? I never said anything about the Serbs killing Muslim Prisoners in a 'turkey shoot'. I said many Muslim men were killed in a turkey shoot when they were ambushed by Serb forces as they attempted to flee to Tuzla with the Bosnian Muslim 5th Army. They were traveling with the military column. They were ambushed a couple times. They suffered very heavy casualties. Those are completely separate instances than the approximately 600 men of fighting age killed via summary executions. That is a war crime. I already said so. Please don't make me explain this again. It's really not that difficult.
You wish...
The facts and numbers that you're mentioning in connection with Srebrenica are ridiculous. But, as I said, I'm not rushing in. Not without the clear proofs.
Apart the 2 serbs who are just about to undergo their trial for war cimes, are there any other? Like Croates or native muslims?
Knowing that within the USA, there are plenty of weird catholic & protestant christians, some being extermist such as both Bush, I really wonder how the american Elite could have been that much behind the Serbs?
If anybody would tell me that the US congress is more than a "Litte"under the spell of the jewish, I would undertand that very easily, but the contrary?
That just doesn't make sense.
The democrats of the republicains, no difference.
What the point? Their only interest is to sell weapons and wage war.
And have fun with "Monica" of course!
Beside, it's hard to understand a conflic that dates back to before WWI.
When the world is faced with such a conflict, the most logic thing to do would just be to install 50 feets hight fences surrounding the given country and no one come out or go in for any reason.
Solve you problems first, we'll see after!
That would do it!
Pierre.
I worked on this film and I believe some of the criticism directed towards it warranted. I believe we did concentrate too much effort on the avalanche of collective guilt and lies that was raining down on all Serbs at the time. A more balanced approach would have better furthered our argument.
At the same time, it helps to consider to the political environment in which this film was made. The forces lined up to condemn anything and everything that was "Serb" was breathtaking. "The other side of the story" was being relentlessly hammered home whether or not that side of the story was truthful, or something made up and pushed by the various public relations firms that were hired by the adversaries of the Serbs to demonize all Serbs in the eyes of the international community. A person couldn't stand up and defend any aspect of the Serbian cause without being labeled a "Serb propagandist". The Serbian voice was nearly completely choked out. There was no "Serb side of the story" ANYWHERE. I don't think a total lock out of one side of the story in a conflict has ever been so successfully achieved, yet there were no howls, "Where's the Serb side of the story????" from anybody while Croat, Bosnian Muslim, and Albanian forces were slaughtering whole villages of Serbs. Nobody cared about the Serbs concerns. The silence was jaw dropping.
But here we have cries for the Croatian, Muslim and Albanian points of view. Where were these people when the Serbs were completely shut out? - Nowhere to be found. Eventually enough thinking people had the courage to come forth and point out that this story wasn't so black and white. Those are the folks we used as sources for this film.
Some of you may have noticed that NOT ONE SINGLE SERBIAN SOURCE was cited in the making of this film. NOT ONE. All the sources are non-Serb, yet this is labeled as "Serbian propaganda". That seems a tad ridiculous to me. On the other hand, nearly all the atrocities attributed to the Serbs can be traced back Croatian and Muslim sources that are accepted as the absolute Truth without the batting of an eye. Serbs don't have, and have never had that luxury. We use 3rd party sources, and I believe that makes our position more reliable.
I stand behind this film. It is a sound journalistic work. During the making of this film we constantly kept asking ourselves if we're kidding ourselves. We refused to believe Serbian propaganda as much as we renounced the garbage put out by Ruder and Finn. We only sought to set the record straight, and I believe we did a good job.
Outside of the above mentioned mea culpa in regards to the film being too one sided, I have yet to see a content error of any substance pointed out about any points we made. It's one thing be a Croat, Muslim or Albanian and not be happy about the content of this film because it doesn't paint your people as angels. It's another thing all together to make a specific argument about any points put forth in the film.
Know one ever said it better than you just have. It's really sad that being a Serb, every time I try to recommend a book, or a film such as this one, or even facts about the war, I have to state that it's coming from a non-Serb person. While the Muslims, Croats, Albanians get to sit on the witness bench at the Hague, and condemn Serbs, we get no such rite, since what comes out of our mouths "can't surely be facts". Growing up in the US I can just remember 1999 and what CNN was pumping to the world, and going to school being called a baby killer, and rapist, and wasn't even allowed to wear any artical of clothing that bore any Serbian insignia, while the Albanians got to wear any shirt they wanted. The school even wrote my mother a letter stating that this was to keep the tension down since more people would get offended if a Serb showed pride, that an Albanian. Just try to imagine now a 9 year old trying to comprehend all that negativity towards his nationality? Especially since all my life I went to church on Sundays, and listened to the elders talk about war stories when the American's came and recruited them to serve in the army during WWII, and how much of an honor it was. Not to mention my great grandpa, who was recruited while living in a Serbian village in present day Macedonia, to serve under General Patton as a tank commander. Oh, and General Draza Mihajlovic's rescue of 500 US Airmen for the Halyard Mission. Growing up, before 1999 those were the stories I knew, and viewed the US and Serbia as allies, which they were, which of coarse was shattered in the early 90's. I never understood where all this hate towards Serbs came, even as a proud American, when I state I am Serbian, someone always says "hey, your the guys who kill like Nazis and hate America... rite?" But that's not true at all, it's just really sad how American media can shape a person's perspective. It's really really sad. And thank you guys for having the balls between your legs to make a documentary like this.
And who says MONEY CAN'T BUY JUSTICE?
In my opinion, the "onesidedness" was justified and necessary since the balance of public opinion has been weighed so heavily against the Serbs for so long. Thankfully, since the advent of the internet and the decline of trust in the mainstream media, other perspectives about many recent geopolitical events have got a fairer hearing.
Onesidedness can never be justified! Especially not in a documentary. This is the core of the problem. It just goes the opposite way from the original propaganda at best.
Yes, it was a dirty war! Yes, the Serbs were bad at PR. Yes, the majority of the world saw Serbs as the only "bad guys" although they weren't the only ones. But also, the Serbs "did";
- Vukovar (siege and complete destruction of the whole city, executions of prisoners and wounded soldiers and civilians),
- Sarajevo (a long siege with massive destruction)
- Srebrenica (the unprecedented massacre)
- ...
So the bad Serbian PR didn't fall from the sky or some other higher instance. Serbs ensured the bad PR themselves. They just gave too much material for enemy PR.
And here is the core of the problem once again. You cannot make a documentary about this war and just ignore the facts like Vukovar, Sarajevo and Srebrenica when they are the core of the war. If you do, you have made a propaganda or a fiction at best. You can find thousands of people who will say things that go with your story, but you will never have a documentary because you missed the point completely.
You're right. A one sided approach to the problem is never justified. That's the main theme of our film. The reason the war was totally depicted as one sided is exactly why we made the film. We were seeking to shed light on the side that was not allowed to have a voice.
The Serbs weren't so much bad at PR as they were NOT ALLOWED to use it. Their assets were frozen early on and they were forbidden from hiring a public relations firm.
Then again, the Serbs didn't really believe they needed a PR firm to spin their story because they truly believed they were in the right. The Serbs believed they were simply protecting their ancestral homelands in Krajina and Bosnia.
There was no "invasion" as the Croat and Muslim PR companies were trying to sell at the beginning of the conflict. Anybody else remember them trying to sell that load of bullcrap? Unreal. the Serbs in Krajina and Bosnia were there for hundreds of years. It almost seems ridiculous that they tried to sail that turd that the Serbs were 'invaders', but you can go back and look at the news accounts from back then. It's a joke, but the Western press actually reprinted the garbage that the Serbs invaded from Serbia.
I was in Vukovar during a ceasefire and I've held the first prints of photographs of all the slaughtered Serb families in the villages Vukovar. It was truly disgusting what the Serbs and Croats did to each other as they fought for that city. You could feel the death hanging in the air. If I remember correctly it was just outside Vukovar that the war in Croatia started. I'm not positive but I think it was the neo-Ustashe forces of Dobroslav Paraga that attacked some JNA barracks. I'm going to have to go back and dig through some notes.
Sarajevo was like the punchline to that entire stupid joke that was the war in Bosnia. The UN stationed in Sarajevo are on record saying the Muslims broke the vast majority of ceasefires around Sarajevo. They'd set up a big gun on a hospital or school and then fire on the Serb positions. Naturally the Serbs would respond and some mindless western reporter would be down the street from where the Serbs fire was directed, and woopidoopi! "The big bad Serbs were laying siege to Sarajevo!!" Our film covers this subject quite thoroughly.
Srebrenica! The whole hoax of the Srebrenica "massacre" is just a total coverup for 'Operation Storm'. The sickest crimes in the Srebrenica area came at the hands of Nasir Oric's forces. This was a truly a frustrating time for Serbs. We were all hearing about how Oric and his forces were using the 'Safe Haven' of Srebrenica to launch vicious attacks on the Serb villages around Srebrenica. These animals didn't spare anyone. They killed women, children, old people, anyone. I think it was somewhere between 2500 and 3000 Serbs were killed by Oric and his boy from Srebrenica. We couldn't even get one tiny little western newspaper to cover all the slaughtering of Serbs around Srebrenica. I think the biggest massacre happened on Serbian Christmas if I remember correctly - charming.
As far as I can tell, and I don't know this for sure, but I believe there were as many as 600 Muslim men executed by Serb paramilitary forces when Srebrenica was liberated by the Serbs. The claim is these men were killed in revenge for what what was done to Serb civilians attacked from Srebrenica. This some really ugly stuff, but hardly 'genocide'. This is God-less murder on both sides. Of course there are no good guys here, but if one has to choose between folks that slaughter 2500 men, women, children and old people versus folks that slaughter 600 men of fighting age...
As for the actual 'massacre', well that did happen, but not like the West would like us to believe. A ton of Muslim men did retreat from Srebrenica with Bosnian 5th army forces column to Tuzla. but they were repeatedly ambushed by Serb forces. It was a real turkey shoot, and a big pile of Muslim men lost their lives, but when you travel with a military column, you are no longer a civilian, you are a legitimate target. Just because they royally got their asses handed to them, it doesn't mean it was 'genocide' or even a war crime!
Vukovar, Sarajevo and Srebrenica - I'm a little out of practice with this stuff, so thanks for tossing me some softballs. Got anything a little tougher? :)
Well. There you have it. Vukovar/Sarajevo/Srebrenica denial. The same like Holocaust denial. Nothing thougher is needed. You just discredited yourself.
One sided approach in war time propaganda is one thing, but a one sided "documentary" is something else. Why would one make a one sided documentary? To proof that the war time propaganda is one sided!? Of course it's one-sided. But one sided documentary makes it a peace time propaganda. In this case even insulting, inflammatory and very dangerous.
There was no invasion? In battle of Vukovar 110 armored vehicles got destroyed. Hundreds came in during the final push when the city fell. Where did they come from? Majority came from Serbia. Did you see the video clip, with hundreds of tanks going from Belgrade towards the border with thousands of people throwing flowers on them? Isn't that an invasion? It would've been a total invasion if the Battle of Vukovar didn't brake the back of JNA forces.
You were in Vukovar? Did you see the city after the fall? What would you say to a family who was pulled out from a cellar by a drunk Serbian mercenary with WW2 Chetniks insignia, only to see that the whole street you lived in was gone? What would you say to one of the approx 260 mothers whose sons were executed on Ov?ara as captured or wounded soldiers with their hands tied behind their backs? Would you say to them that it was their own fault? Would you show those mothers your documentary?
How can you even talk about ceasefires in Sarajevo? The city was under total siege. Surrounded and shelled/sniped from all surrounding hills in 360 degrees. I just came from Sarajevo. Even, now many years after the war you will see damaged buildings with bullet and shell wholes from all sides. All over the city. Of course the Bosniaks (Croats and Serbs too and not only Muslims like you ignorantly call them) defended themselves by all means. They were fighting for their lives. Did you ask yourself, why would an army take a city under a siege for few years? Why didn't you mention that both in Vukovar and even more in Sarajevo there were many Serbs fighting against the invading Serbian army? They were defending their cities. Where they lived before the war.
What would you say to those families whose 16 year olds sons were exectued in Srebrenica? Even if they were soldiers, they did surrender. They were shot, as you say, like turkeys, as they were escaping, or in column of prisoners...Would you say it was their fault? It was fair fight? If you had a friend whose all male members of his family were executed in front of his eyes in Srebrenica after the city fell, would you like him too see the film which states that there was no massacre?
So the Serbs were frustrated because of defeats in Operation Storm. This gives them right to execute prisoners? As reprisal?
Your numbers are not correct, but I won't lower my self to talk about the people as numbers as you do.
I really don't understand you. I don't understand the reasons why would someone think like you do.
But I know that you don't know anything about war, and human sacrifice. If you did, you would never say these things. And I do know, now more then before, that this film is dangerous propaganda.
Any documentary of whatever kind identifies, isolates, and addresses one particular theme; in this case, the theme of the culpability of western actors for the war. This documentary goes out of its way to present objective, outside, perspectives, which nevertheless support the general argument. Such an approach may be 'one sided' but it is also fair. Why would one cover aspects that have already been covered extensively and repeatedly elsewhere? Why should one? We already know by heart the other side of the story since it has been and is still forced down our throats by mind-moulding mainstream media agents of disinformation. I can testify first-hand to the overwhelming volume of anti-Serb propaganda that we were subjected to here in the west throughout the course of the war by utterly biased newspapers. Never do I recall reading about Croatian or Bosnian atrocities. Never do I recall it being mentioned that Yugoslavia was an internationally recognised sovereign state. If you even watch 'The Death of Yugoslavia', which, in my opinion, is biased towards the Anglo-American view of the war, you still cannot help forming the impression that the only leader actually trying to avoid war was Milosevic. Once he became an obstacle to US objectives in the region, he was presented as Public Enemy no 1. Previously, though, when it seemed he might play the geostrategic game, the US and its allies, maintained a policy of neutrality, and the conflict was considered a civil war. By the time of the Kosovo confict, the Serbs had been reclassified as Nazis and Milosevic as Hitler. US commentators, almost across the board, called for the indiscriminate bombing of Serbia, ironically, urging the perpetration of the same kind of war crimes that they accused Milosevic of inflicting, and applying 'collective guilt' to the entire Serbian population in a way that echoed classic war criminals down through the ages.
Holocaust denial? What are you talking about? Is that some sort of reflex reaction to not being able to rationally argue your point of view? When did I ever deny the Holocaust? Eighteen members of my family were killed in the Holocaust.
The battle for Vukovar was very nasty as both sides inflicted heavy casualties on each other. I was there after the battle. It was horrible. I don't deny that Serb forces most likely carried out atrocities on Croat civilians. I'm certain Croat forces carried out crimes against Serb civilians.
Of course there was no invasion. The country was Yugoslavia. Parts of it were trying to secede from the rest of it. It was like Vermont trying to break away from the rest of the US. If the US army moves to prevent such a thing from happening, guess what - it's not an invasion. You can't invade your own country. Same thing in Slovenia and Croatia.
Then you go on and on about "What would I say" to the families of the victims of various Serbian war crimes. I don't really see any point in this argument. If you want, I can match you war crime for war crime. Polls were conducted of all people from all the different sides in the conflicts and it was found that Serbs were more likely to have lost a family member or loved one in the wars than any of the other ethnic groups. Do you really want to go war crime for war crime with me? What good would that do anybody?
Can't we just agree that all the various fighting sides did way too many horrible things to each other? I'm not, nor would ever claim that the Serbs were the angels in any aspect of these wars, but for whatever reason, if the Serbs aren't portrayed as devils, it's "Holocaust Denial".
Next you have a rambling paragraph about Sarajevo. Let me see if I can decipher it a bit...
You said, "How can you even talk about ceasefires in Sarajevo? The city was under total siege. Surrounded and shelled/sniped from all surrounding hills in 360 degrees." - How can I talk about the ceasefires when the city was under total siege? Well, when there's a ceasefire, there are no weapons being fired into Sarajevo. When the Muslims fire at Serb positions ringing Sarajevo, they should rationally expect that it's quite possible a violent response is coming their way. Is this really that difficult to understand? Don't shoot at me, and I won't shoot at you. You can't shoot at me and then start crying when you get it back.
But the Muslims that were constantly breaking the ceasefires didn't care that they were going to face retaliation. That's exactly what they wanted. The Western press was set up in Sarajevo and the Muslim government wanted Western military intervention to help them take full control of all of Bosnia. It wasn't a bad idea, but it didn't work. It just prolonged the war.
As for the various sides having other ethnic groups fighting on their sides, that's actually a very interesting phenomenon you bring up. It's true that many Serbs and Croats fought with the Muslims. It's also true that the huge Muslim pocket in northwest Bosnia called 'Bihac' was allied with the Bosnian Serbs!
Croats fought alongside Serbs. Serbs fought alongside Croats. Muslims fought alongside Serbs. Serbs fought alongside Muslims. I even had a Croatian friend from Dalmatia that considered himself to be a Chetnik. During WW2 his family hid Jews in their basement from the Croatian Ustashe nazis. He claimed his family hated Pavelic because he was a nazi that stole their vineyards, and they hated Tito because he was a communist. They were loyal to the Serb royalist - Drazha Mihailovich. Politics certainly does make strange bedfellows.
'Bosniaks'? What is a Bosniak? Someone from Bosnia? That could be any of the factions. They're Muslims. They're Serbs and Croats that converted to Islam under the Ottomans so they could live a cushy life in the city. I never even heard the word 'Bosniak' before 1990.
I never claimed there was no massacres associated with Srebrenica. There were several. The Muslims massacred Serbs, and Serbs retaliated with the summary executions of approximately 600 Muslim men of fighting age. I never claimed this was right. These are war crimes - plain and simple.
As for the turkey shoot from Srebrenica to Tuzla, well... War is Hell. It's a shame so many lives were lost, but it certainly isn't a "War Crime" according to the Geneva Convention.
I don't believe this film is dangerous propaganda. I believe this film is a warning to not make the same one sided mistakes in the future. It was exactly the one sided "Serbs are the bad guys" approach that helped prolong and add fuel to fire of the conflicts in the former Yugoslavia. All sides' point of view must be taken into consideration if horrific wars like those are to be avoided in the future.
Are you crazy or simply totaly ignorant of history? What Yugolavia? That is recent 20. century post I. world war invention, always called "the prison of the nations" by anyone but Serbs (isn't in obvious that they are the only one who feel it their homeland?) - in opposition to thousend year old history of Croatia... Croatia was forced to Yugoslavia, abused and imprisoned there for 70 years and than simply wanted out, taking the opportune moment of collaps of communism, fall of the Berlin wall etc.
The so calles Serbian republic of Krajina can't leave Croatia, because it is Croatian land inhabited by Serbs. So the Burgenland in Austria, inhabited in the same time by Croats, can't leave Austria, simply because, although it's inhabited by Croats, it isn't Croatian land. Why are the Serbs so affraid of Croats, and can't imagine to live in any kind of Croatia? Because of Croatian - "Ustaše" crimes over innocent Serbs in the II. world war? Don't be ridiculous. These crimes had their cause in Serbian crimes over Croats commited when Croatia was impelled in brothery embrace of Serbs after the I. w. war, and by serbian Chetniks... During the time of both Yugoslavias, the "royal" and communist, Serbs imposed themselves over other nations, supported and sustaned by both East and West; but they have unexpectedly lost their support, and can't get it...
Dear Serbs, get it: we Croats don't want your Yugoslavia. We never did. Life in that lovely creature wasn't as lovely for us, as it obviously was for you. That communism of yours was farse, brotherhood and aequality lie, commarad Tito simple agent of God knows who and notorious criminal, sociopat and egotistic dictator; singing songs for him and carring "Štafeta" to honour his birthday, simply was an insult to human intelligence... so, the whole concept of this Yugoslavia was a simple but bloody lie.
We went out. Get it and live with it.
Your ignorance of history is astounding.
I wouldn,t trust any of the (2-3) factions at war between each other to become or be nominated as the "Judge" to emite any decision about what happened over there.
Even though I understand that either ones claim that they are they know everything about it since they were there.
And we sure all know that the any american would be crooked mind.
The most important business in the USA is producing and selling and marketting weapons.
Which isn't a very good disposition for that job.
Pierre.
this film is a disaster! After 20 years of a systematic nationalist indoctrination, a very few people in Serbia (journalists, writers, mainly working in the NGO-sector) are doing thier best to make the majority of people finally understand what kind of horrors have been committed by the Serbian paramilitary units, and what is our own responsibility in all this mess, so that the countries from the whole region can move on... This film is one of the things that bring these efforts back to point zero. I cannot even imagine the trauma that the victims of the serbian paramilitary units experience when they see this film... If there is anything more insidious and hypocrate then the Milosevic's regime itself, then it's the activity of the so-called "nationalist immigration" people who (for more than half a century) live thousands of miles away from the Balkans, enjoy all the rights and liberties of the Western democracies (obviously, money and influence as well) and then use that power and influence to spill their hatred by making some crapy nationalist propaganda...SHAME on people who made this film!
btw, Belgrade was one of the first cities that was "free" from jewish people in Yugoslavia under the nazzi occupation, thanks to the enthousiasm of cetniks, collaborators of the fascist regime that the actual serbian governement is trying to rehabilitate.
You made your point, you're partial and vicious crooked mind.
"Free of Jewish", Huh?
I am not jewish either by association of any other mean.
In fact, I'd have plenty of claims against them, those present years.
But the psychotics in Israel as very different than these ones.
But smart enough to realise that if it would be possible to bring any croate or mulsim to court for war crime, somebody among the some 5.XX billions inhabitants of planet earth would be working on the case somehere on planet earth.
With the power that electronic medias has in now days.
Why don't you make your point & bring the facts to an international lawyer? So that he push it?
You're not helping yourself.
Pierre.
Pawel couldn't have explained it better. I lived through that hell, and I can't put it much clearer. All it takes is common sense to understand that. No matter where you live and where you were born. War is hell. Innocent people on all sides get killed. And those who started it, exploit it and end up rich. It's the death of humanity, and it's a crime.
But I sometimes wonder if the will to make this kind of propaganda like "Yugoslavia: The Avoidable War", once the war is actually over and lost, isn't even a bigger crime. In the end, things like that ignited the war in the first place.
And as long as there are people who make propaganda like this, and more importantly, people who approve it, and blindly believe it, there is still a considerable chance of a new war.
Powell is a liar. Period. he was proven to lie at the UN about the WMDin Iraq. Next! Bring another one!
Pierre.
I've just watched The Death of Yugoslavia and Yugoslavia: The Avoidable War one after another. And, well, I'm a bit confused...
The Avoidable War is biased, it's beyond any doubt. Its creator is American of Serbian origin, its production was backed by Serbian funds. And just why it presents Serbian army and politics as defenders of right cause and victims of deceitful separatists and NATO. But it is enough to compare casualty rate among civilian Bosnians and Serbs to realize, who was the main perpetrator in this conflict… It’s enough to know who controlled Yugoslavian army (Zagreb, Sarajevo or Beograd?) to understand why non-Serbian nations of Yugoslavia might have felt insecure when federation was about to collapse – and it was about to collapse because of increasing nationalism, not only Croatian or Slovenian, but also Serbian, what isn’t mentioned in film by Bogdanich.
In spite of its obvious prejudice, films attach great importance (sometimes even too great…) to some aspects that, in my opinion, are underestimated in The Death of Yugoslavia. Firstly, the root of evil was not only a Serbian imperialism, but also nationalism (often very aggressive) in Croatia and Bosna. Secondly, media really seemed to tend to present whole conflict in black-white categories, forgetting about Bosnan and, especially, Croatian war crimes and mass murders (we can see that in TDoY, where Serbs’ exiles by Croats are presented but not mass murders ). This conflict was real hell with murders, rapes, atrocity and exiles at both sides, but, for God’s sake, this statement cannot be used as a justification for terrible things that happened in Vukovar, Sarajevo or Srebrenica!
It’s quite terrifying that such a film has been made by Serbian filmmaker and emitted on Sebian TV. Judging by many comments on this forum written by Serbs, they must feel a lot of frustration, strong sense of humiliation – so strong that it seems to be very easy to forget about terrible crimes committed by own nation and flare up with pride and revenge, once again... I hope it won’t happen. I wish that contemporary Serbia (and other post-Yugoslavian republics) will go different way - of will of mutual understanding and repentance. Long live Yugoslavia!;)
You sir are a gentleman and a scholar and I share your view completely.
this documentary makes an extreme effort to downplay the Serbian warcrimes. However it does shed light upon the facts that etnic cleansing was commited by all fighting parties aswell as how incompetent the treatment of the conflict by the international community was. Facts that people, atleast in my neck of the woods, are terribly ignorant about and sees the Serbians as the sole perpetrators.
After seeing this I have a little more sympathy to why the Serbians feel mistreated and understanding for the growing (according to media) Serbian nationalism. I hope we don´t see a reaction similar to Germanys against the versaille treaty in the 30s.
In order to claim something is biased you must have a side, right?
Obviously yours is anti-Serb even though you are hiding behind an alias. As opposed to Islamic/Muslim and Catholic (Crusaders) Imperialism throughout the ages, Slavs had never have any imperialistic tendencies; it's not their mentality.
"and Catholic (Crusaders)"
On the money.
The events in the aftermath of WW2, is pretty much the blue print taking by NATO and the force behind this Org. Once the Soviet Union fell, the lever was pulled from covert, to overt and it seems afrika is now the latest target. China is slowly being choked off in the resource game, this was marvelously described in Zbig's, The Grand Chessboard.
I've just watched The Death of Yugoslavia and Yugoslavia: The Avoidable War one after another. And, well, I'm a bit confused...
The Avoidable War is biased, it's beyond any doubt. Its creator is American of Serbian origin, its production was backed by Serbian funds. And just why it presents Serbian army and politics as defenders of right cause and victims of deceitful separatists and NATO. But it is enough to compare casualty rate among civilian Bosnians and Serbs to realize, who was the main perpetrator in this conflict… It’s enough to know who controlled Yugoslavian army (Zagreb, Sarajevo or Beograd?) to understand why non-Serbian nations of Yugoslavia might have felt insecure when federation was about to collapse – and it was about to collapse because of increasing nationalism, not only Croatian or Slovenian, but also Serbian, what isn’t mention in film by Bogdanich.
In spite of its obvious prejudice, films attach great importance (sometimes even to great…) to some aspects that, in my opinion, are underestimated in The Death of Yugoslavia. Firstly, the root of evil was not only a Serbian imperialism, but also nationalism (often very aggressive) in Croatia and Bosna. Secondly, media really seemed to tend to present whole conflict in black-white categories, forgetting about Bosnan and, especially, Croatian war crimes and mass murders (we can see that in TDoY, where Serbs’ exiles by Croats are presented but not mass murders ). This conflict was real hell with murders, rapes, atrocity and exiles at both sides, but, for God’s sake, this statement cannot be use as a justification for terrible things that happened in Vukovar, Sarajevo or Srebrenica!
It’s quite terrifying that such a film has been made by Serbian filmmaker and emitted on Sebian TV. Judging by many comments on this forum written by Serbs, they must feel a lot of frustration, strong sense of humiliation – so strong that it seems to be very easy to forget about terrible crimes committed by own nation and flare up with pride and revenge, once again... I hope it won’t happen. I wish that contemporary Serbia (and other post-Yugoslavian republics) will go different way - of mutual understanding and repentance. Long live Yugoslavia!;)
This is not a fiction! This is one of rare true reviews of recent political reality of my beloved former country. I am saddened by some comments posted here.People who see it as biased and inaccurate review are the people who do not want to see what really happened to us and who probably contributed (or would contribute if were given a chance) to the fall of Yugoslavia.
unfortunately it does not say why Slovenia decided to declare independence--there was a conference of the six provinces where Milosevic and other Serbs were trying to railroad them and they said if you aren't going to give any concessions we are out of here--and then Croatia followed also--The movie "Death of Yugoslavia" explains this much better--this documentary shows it from the US and Europe side whereas the other movie shows it from the Balkan side
This is one of rare good reviews of recent political reality of my former country.The ones that state this is biased review are the ones that do not want to see what really happened there. It is really sad to see that truth gets uncovered only after the country was destroyed.
Not only extremely bias, but also technically and historically inaccurate. It's not a documentary. It's a fiction. And a bad one at that. It has all features of propaganda, and it insults any common sense and humanity.
ObjectiveWesterner , Great explanation .
Extremely bias view ..
Propagandised idiots remain immunised to the comments of UN and NATO participants in the war, journalists on the ground, as well as the findings of aid agencies such as the Red Cross. Somehow, all of these must be managing
to lie in concert. In fact, this documentary is exhaustively researched and pinpointedly accurate.
To take just the last point, the NATO operation WAS an illegal bombing campaign, which contravened the UN Charter, the NATO charter, the 1975 Helsinki accords, and the US Constitution, and it resulted in the loss of thousands of civilian lives.
It WAS a campaign which deliberately targeted civilian areas (as they ran out of military targets after a few days) such as factories, telephone exchanges, food processing plants, fertiliser depots, hospitals, schools, museums, churches, monasteries and farms.
It was a campaign based on lies, as was the judgement of the Organisation for Security and Co-Operation in Europe, which found no evidence of genocide, or threat of genocide, or justification for "humanitarian intervention", and which was also the judgement (after the fact of course) of the disgusting Wall Street Journal.
It was a campaign which involved the killing of old men, women and children in the streets, in parks, hiding in houses.
It inflicted 40 billion euro worth of destruction inflicted on the Serbian economy.
It resulted in the expulsion, ethnic cleansing of 250,000 Serbs and Roma and the torturing, abducting, and killing inflicted by the Kosovan Liberation Army while NATO stood by.
No mass graves, or evidence of ethnic cleansing, were found either by the FBI or the international forensic teams, who left in disgust at the deception.
What the documentary didn't mention was the AMBO oil pipeline feasibility study that immediately followed the bombing campaign along with the construction of one of the biggest US base's in the world near the Caspian Sea, which gave the United States a commanding, strategic and permanent military presence in the area.
Clinton and his cohorts along with many US senior politicians over the last forty years should all be on trial for war crimes.
where this documentary was written? MI6 headquarters!!! lies lies and more lies!!!
The documentary is bias. Some of the pictures describing Jasenovac are taken from the documentary on Bergen-Belsen KZ camp. I don't see a point in fabricating or enhancing history.
you shouldn't post use wikipedia as a source for your argument (i'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you because i do not know much about these events,) but i do know that you should not use wikipedia because it is not a reputable source...any one can post random stuff on it
Its interesting how several peoples can argue and in that arguement tell the truth but omit truths that hurt their cause. Everyone knows the balkans has been complicated for centuries. cenruries deep hatreds result in centueies deep miseries. Good luck and god bless you all coz you definitely have not fought your last wars.
oh me oh my, that should read "centuries deep "
see what media does. What a beautiful country with brotherhood and unity gone to shit. And the only one who really won this war were the private investors buying cheap government owned businesses. While we still fight with each other saying who did what to who. Dont you all see this is what the western democratic world wants us to do. jADNO U PICKU MATERINU
Zivela Srbija! Sloboda Ili Smrt!!!! this movie is not garbage, unless you cant handle the truth. were you there? i dont think so, and if you were you probly know just as well as I do that whatever has been said about my people in doing in a war time situation, was done on all sides. no one in america ever got the news about muslim soldiers playing soccer with a 7 year old boy's head. tell me if that was your son what would you do to those people? exactly what we did. 1. send all the elderly, women, and children away, get all the men of fighting age on their knees, and make them meet their maker. that is fact. not serbs raping muslim woman, and somehow the baby they show on cnn is black. a black serb? never heard of that. and p.s. albanians are not illirians, your from the Caucasus Mountains a.k.a. around present day armenia. get your history down you organ thieving animals. need a kidney? call 1-800- KLA
The fact that it is one-sided, is not the biggest problem with this film. It is something to be expected. But the level of hypocrisy is bottomless. It's starts with anti-war concept with stating that mostly common people from all sides suffered most (which is true BTW), and then, everything after this introduction statement goes completely the opposite way. It goes so far as to negate and relativize the worst attrocities done by Serbs. This is an awful, inhumane and tasteless propaganda.
Says the Hungarian with bloody hands!
p.s.didn't Austro-Hungary (and then Austria and Hungary) attack and massacred Serbia in WWI and WWII?
test
@ Jay W
You are an intelligent person, I've ead some of your comments elsewhere.
With regard to your response to Ognjen above, I'm just wondering if you are simplifying things to absurdity out of ignorance or do you do it for a specific purpose? Just curious...
this movie doesn't deserve to be watched.
why do u say that?
You are right! Rich Islamists make much better movie as they can afford to hire real Washington politicians and real Hollywood movie stars.
Serbs are the noblest of people! All wars that Serbs fought were just. Serbs fought against the muslim agression in Europe throughout their history and what NATO has done to the Serbian people is a travesty.
"Author: Ognjen
Comment:
The west is responsible for the war in Yugoslavia.Great powers decide who will live and who will not.Serbs saying no to Hitler was the bigest mistake in Serbian history, although Serbian historians say if we said yes to Hitler, Croats fascists and Nazis would kill us anyway.It's in Serbian mentality to fight the mightiest that's way they paid the heavy price of it.Bosnia is just another playing ground for the west."
Yeah, the west somehow drove the peace-loving Yugoslav people into a genocidal frenzy against each other. These are some incredible puppet masters.
Cue the Nazis. If the Nazis could do it, then so can its mirror-image the west 0_0 :O ... !!!
Do you realize how ridiculous you sound now?
Sam
"People of the former Yugoslav republic where tired of the so called communist party which at time was run by the Serbian government all countries wanted equal right, and focus more on joining the road to Europe rather than to get stuck in a ghetto and watch the world evolve unlike us.
How ever the pro Serbian Govermant has something different in mind a Great Kingdom of Slobodan Milosevic, which protected only one part and that part happened to be Serbian as they were the easiest to be manipulated."
You came to my country as a soldier.Why?Who caled you?
Isn't that occupation?
"On top of it all you don’t have the radical Islam in Bosnia all though it is the Dominant religion there and has been for years and that will never change..."
When you write about history you should first check the informations about the subject you are talking.Serbs were the majority before the ww2.Where did they vanished.As they said in 1941 in Belgrade, "we will never fight against our alies the British" , then Hitler came and destroyed Belgrade, then Britsh bombed Belgrade again in 1999.Stupid Serbs!
"I see many serbian kids on this thread blabbing away, and just don’t add up. I personally was in British Army and did server in Bosnia what i found surprising is the amout of Serbians that Fought on the Bosnian side during the war, am sure they knew very well who the real oppressors where and still do until this very day."
It's interesting though, there were muslims fighting on a Serbian side.Bosnia is a weird country.
"Any way to close up … people get into your head Milosevic’s regime was the one to blame for this war an no one else his greed and the constant need for power turned this into a bloody national war which obviously Bosnia got the hard part of the stick, as they were a nation without an army and an embargo from the west and still managed to fight of the Serbian or then Yugoslav Army and defend their nation and people."
Yes, history in the Balkans begins from Milosevich.He was so evil.As they write, the Bosnian muslims on the walls in 1990's, "From Bosnia to Iran it will be a land of a muslim man".But have to get rid of 50% of christians?Yes, call the British.They have expirience in that.
Gee @ Sam,
Your analysis above is so profound that I will have to save it somewhere to read it & get a good laugh whenever I feel a bit down :)
@gygasync I tend to agree with you here, I don't doubt that croatia and serbia have equal claims for Bosnia but knowing what we know now from what has happened in Kosovo then the War was justified to keep the Muslims in check, so what is the current situation in Bosnia in regards to christian and other religions being oppressed by the Muslims, is it a problem and have u any links for it because I'm doing some research on Islam and good information on Bosnia would be appreciated.
Most of you think that the war started because of religious or political problems, actually it started when Yugoslavia started braking up. Muslims wanted to get independence, but they wanted all of Bosnia and Herzegovina. But then the Serbs(Bosnian) wanted to get independent, and so did the Croats. They couldn't agree diplomatically so war started. What happened in war is correct. But I personally blame the 400 year Turk occupation and Nazi. Serbs had lived a lot of time occupied, so they killed to seek vengance. Any questions ask me, i'm still in school :P
P.S. I'm a Serb
I also say extra documentary and Ivan's links is best proof for that.Report about that Hiden army in Bosnia and Kosovo latter exist in one another very serious documentary "Zero: An Investigation into 9/11" (They are "attack" America 11.09.2001)
There are a few key things people have to remember - documented and recognized historical facts.
Fact #1 (check Euro atlas, any notable European mid-evil atlas) Croatians were in the region of current day Croatia and Bosnia before anyone else. Serbs came to present day Serbia after.
Fact #2 Croatia became a state in 925 under Tomislav all the way up until 1102 when it joined a union with the Hapsburgs.This is why Croatia was within Austria-Hungary.
Fact #3, the eastern invasion of the Ottomans pushed Serbs into Bosnia, and the Turks converted many people in that region to Islam,
Fact #4, The Serbs in Bosnia started claiming it for themselves and when the Austro-Hungarian empire reclaimed Bosnia (as it had been annexed by the Turks) the Serbs could not rest. This is why they later killed Franz Ferdinand and started WW1.
Fact #5, Serbia was at the allied winner table after WW1, and though the allies guaranteed fundamental rights to i.e Belgians (democracy, self-determination) the Croats who were with the loser Austro-hungarians were left to be dominated in a Serb state without anyone asking them first.
Fact #5, the first Yugoslavia was a totalitarian dictatorship and many people from all walks of life who were Croatian were being killed off by Belgrade. Millan Sufflay, a Croatian intellectual was gunned down in the middle of the day. This raised protests to the league of nations by his colleagues Alber Einstien (who's wife was Serbian) and Heinrich Mann. No one did anything. Stjepan Radic, who was the Croatian political leader at the time was gunned down in the Belgrade parliament in the middle of it being in session for lobbying for basic Croatian rights.
Fact #5, The Yugoslav communist government manipulated WW2 as much as possible to guilt their largest problem: Croatians. Somehow, victim counts of say the camp known as Jasenovac in Croatia has significantly gone down from its 700 thousand figure which was formal in the former Yugoslavia. Also, it is estimated that a total of 1 million died in Yugoslavia during WW2 - Serbs fighting in Serbia against communists, communist partisans against serbs, germans, ustase, italians, ustase against serb chetniks, partizans, italians, slovenians against communist slovenian partisans, albanians etc. It's highly unlikely that the entire million that died were killed off by Croatia which encompassed only a portion of the entire region, and it is even more unlikely that the greatest loss was civilian.
Fact #6, the second Yugoslavia was completely Serb dominated and all figures prove this correct. The majority of the police, party members, authorities of any kind were Serbs. Tito was not a Croat, he was an ethnic Croat-Slovene who didn't believe in nationality, he was a communist.
Fact #7, croatia tried to form a legal confederation within yugoslavia.
Fact #8, Croatia democratically left yugoslavia per constitution by referendum which was grossly in favor. Croatia was then attacked.
Fact #9, if nato bombs your country after you waged war in several democratically created countries, you should be handing out apologies not excuses.
I think you all need to take a deep breath, there is so much hatred here alone from all sides, is there any wonder the states were at war? I'm of Serbian heritage, born in Australia due to my parents escaping the socialist republic of Yugoslavia in the 60's to give us an opportunity at a good free prosperous life, lets all agree on something, the powers that be from all sides use religion & ethnic differences to divide us all with their nationalistic bulls..t for power & profit, the majority of educated people can see past this &
Just want to live in a free prosperous world, how can anyone take joy in the deaths, slaughters, rapes & murders of any human being regardless of religious or nationalistic background? We would all be in uproar if we seen animals treated in such a way, how can we accept this behavior in any name towards fellow man?
Catholic, Orthodox, Christian of any variety, Muslims & Jews, we all believe in 1 God, how can we justifiably kill & oppress in his name & be able to look at ourselves in the mirror with a clear conscience?
It's time we all moved on from this & try to find the things we have in common to build a future together rather than pointing out our differences to disastrous effect, lets leave the battles on the sporting arenas rather than the battlefields of war, i'm ashamed of all sides involved, there are no innocent sides as all have done horrendous things to each other, regardless if we were directly involved or just turned a blind eye to what was happening, we don't need a body count as 1 murder in the name of nationalism, religion or anything else is as bad as 1000000, instead, lets make a stronger economy for all people so no one can be envious of anybody else, lets spend our time studying how to feed the world, cure illnesses, secure water resources for our future generations, clean energy &
educating the world so everyone has a chance at a decent sustainable future with peace & happiness, here in Australia, when 1 state is in trouble, we all stick together to get through it as you all may have seen the flooding & devastation in Queensland, we all do what we can to help, don't get me wrong, we do our battles on the sporting fields but when someone's in trouble, we stick together, i think Europe could learn a lot from Australia keeping in mind, all of Europe would fit in 1 state in Australia, why can't we all get along &
forget the past grievances or at the very least, learn from them & realize killing each other for whatever reason gets us no where other than breeding hatred in generations to come, does it really matter who was first anywhere? What matters is we are here now, lets make the most of it together, peace, love & prosperity to all, thanks for reading, AK.
you welcome jay w :)
hey vlatko who the hell is he? is he old like me?
Hehe, cool, (then) thank you, esma ;p :)) !!!
jay w
yes i mean it :) .. its nice and soothing to know there are also clever ppl around..
Dear esma,
Hmm, so did you mean that you liked my comment? If so, then Thank you, esma ;p :)) !!!
Sincerely,
Jay W
to jay w..
esma likes this...
Nice try!
As a relative newcomer to this topic, I am constantly amazed at the extent of Serbian national hubris and ignorance. History is masticated and massaged until it conforms to the Grand Narrative of the Serbian nation. The fact that all groups committed atrocities during the war doesn't at all mitigate the fact that most of the military/coercive power on the ground most of the time was Serbian. And that it was purposely and repeatedly used to terrorize, eradicate and displace civilian populations.
The Serb response when confronted with this, based on comments in this forum, is to bury their heads in the sand and provide a list of historical grievances; conjuring The Field of Blackbirds (c. 1389!), the supposed Sicilian roots of the Albanians, the 'traitorous' nature of Bosniaks as per their conversion to Islam and the current existence of a Mujahid movement in Bosnia. None of these arguments (if they are to be dignified with that name) make a blind bit of difference once one has walked on ground littered with fragments of human bone, heard the testimonies of women gang-raped to give birth to Serb babies and seen the devastation of villages emptied of inhabitants and heard the coarse gloating of thuggish paramilitaries drunk on their own hateful rhetoric.
How poisonous unchecked nationalist sentiment is. Not only in Serbia, but wherever it rears its head.
Yes, this does seem a little one-sided in trying to lay the blame of the breakup of Yugoslavia at the feet of the west, as if to say the different ethnic groups were just sitting around a campfire, singing Kumbaya and embracing each other, until the evil west whispered into the ears of this peace-loving and totally united people and drove them to civil war. Seriously?
Do these people really think that if the west did not recognize Slovenia and Croatia, then the civil wars would have been averted? Was the civil war in Kosovo averted by a lack of western recognition of Kosovo?
and i forgot that the documentary is THRUTH all TRUTH SORY FOR my previous comment MY english is not so good
Im serbian and my father have been in batles in bosnia and KOSOVO and he told me that many of the massakrs in bosnia were made up by muslims and i dont get America (serbia have loved USA all your nigger jokes all thinks about America and we have trust in you.Yugoslavia have good realations whit USA now we hate USA for they politics of balkan)they helped muslims in Bosnia and bosnian musslims have suport from Iran,AL QUEDA,mujahedins and you ar in war whit talibans but you saed weapons to other muslims who send it to talibans.Croats (Ustasi)were helped by NAZIz in WWII Ustasi killed 900000 serbs Civilians ppl of kingdom of yugoslavia only serbs and serbs have free them from Austro-Hunagri monarchy and before WWI the (Croats) have talking about unaiting whit serbia in yugoslavia.Yugoslavia have been formed in 1918 and ustasi have been formed in 1928 croatian radical movment who have killed king Alexander in Marsel in France.And after WWII Ustasi have become civilians and titos BRATSTVO JEDINSTVO have cover them up.Then in 1991 the Want unendependent Croatia.After operation storm in 1 august croats selebrate the day of endependens in 1 august 2009 they sell wiskie whit pictures of Ante Pavelic Ustasi leader.West doesent care.In TV comersial of croatia turists agency serbs who have gone to dubrovnik have been beaten up and they car have been demolised.PROBLEm WHit you is THAT america cant edmit That they are most responsible for the war AMERICAN NAZIs.READ SOME BALCAN HISTORY.THE WAR WAS HORRABLE thing.I HATE ALL FACTIONS OF THE WAR EVEN SERBS (as i said im serbian)I HOPE THAT IN THE YEARS TO COME WE WILL KNOW THE TRUTH ABOUT THIS BLOODSHED
Exellent documentary,especially Ivan's link above, I've waited for this.
I was sceptical about whether this video is serbian propaganda a while back so I didnt think it was worth commenting on, although it is quite obviously propaganda I do believe all the events which are claimed occurred within it really did happen, the only doubt in my mind has to be the figures for the number of moslems killed in mass graves but then I have been brainwashed by western media during those times, I hated serbians for what they were doing to the moslems but everything which has been mentioned in this video I believe is true but maybe some details which criminate the serbians have been left out deliberately.
Just for the sake of accuracy - paranoid would be someone who is unreasonably or obsessively anxious or suspicious. Hence, it was not paranoia it this case, it was a fear of annihilation, grounded on previous, and very real, terrible experience, which you are trying to minimize.
It is very symptomatic that you wouldn't accept the atrocities of your own people nor do you use the same generalization about their evilness that you readily apply to others. Congrats to your reasoning, don't know why I waste my time...
There was no reason to be paranoid. If the Serbs didn't want war, everything would be different.
the first to be excuted on mass scale durring ww2 were not the jews but the serbs yea if i was a serb i would be a little paranoid
wtc its obvious these anti serb dolts dont know much about history but what the hell if it aint on cnn/fox well then it must not be
kut clearly the croats and the muslim serbs are the aggressor this is not rocket science
to chaz@rotshild family is the most powerfull family in the world and they r responsible for almost all mayor events in 19 and 20 century(american revolution,komunist movement,ww1,ww2 etc.)and r the one who made all economical crizys and they r from(main point)london -enlgland antd together with enlglish qween r steel secret rulers of the world.they own over 50%of everything in the modern world(estimated 500 trilion$)but if u never heard of them i can't help u there(that is just show how inform u r)so i think u shouldn't live any opinions base just on ur own knowlige couse obviusly is very poor,so i can give u a tip for next time u reed ''litle bit'' more and then come and make coment!!!serbia (like the rest of the world)has some criminal activitys but what was before(during milosevic)is far less then kosovo or albania what u so openly defend but we all know what is the true so please i know u hate serbia and serbs and that is one more prove what kind of people u represent and like i said before serbs don't hate anybody and we really don't give a damn about opinions of people like u r!!!have a nice day...
dexy71.
either ur mad or believe in some cult? who the F*** is the rosfild family?????
@ MC,
I apologize for a late reply, but I don't follow all the threads here all the time.
I thank you for sharing your thoughts. You being a Croat, I can absolutely understand why you would not want this part of the history of your people to be emphasized much.
But, you see, I cannot agree with you when you say that this is not the subject here. It is very much a subject here, because what this puppet fascist state did to the local Serb population at the 1940s war, was one of the significant causes why the local Serb population in Croatia got concerned that something similar may happen this time, especially given the radicalism of the HDZ. Their fear may have been unfounded, but who was to know? (Naturally, that fear was very much used and misused by Milosevic and his cronies.) BUT, the fear of another NDH existed. You may feel the need to diminish it, as it is not in the interest of the modern Croatian state to accept that there would have been any reason for the uprising of Serbs in Croatia...
Don't take me wrong, I certainly do not embrace the idea of Milosevic. I had hoped, before the war started, that the initiatives of moderate Croatian Serbs, who insisted on negotiating with Croatian authorities about an autonomy, would 'win'... unfortunately, these moderates were pushed to the margins, and again, not only, but much so because of the radicalism of the HDZ.
If you argue that the fascist NDH was nor Croatian nor a state, I would like to ask you a question: Would you be ready to accept that what happened during the 1990s, where a f(r)action of the Serbian society gained political, and, consequently, military power, that the ideas of this elite group were not the ideas of the Serb populace as a whole? That the 'success' of their nationalistic policies was due to intricate circumstances that allowed them to put those ideas into practice and not because all the Serbs are evil? Would like to hear your answer to that. Maybe if you think about it in more depth will you understand why Jasenovac is important in this story.
To conclude, I don't hate anybody. I myself come from an ethnically mixed family. However, I also do understand how mass delusions (including those ethnically motivated) win ground, with a lot of help of propaganda generated by those who want to achieve certain goal, and that in such situations people say and do things they normally would not.
And, yes, the Serbian political elite is the most responsible for the wars of the 1990s in former Yugoslavia, but do not forget that they were not the only actor in the arena...
My greetings to you.
shameful,
all the documentary to launder the massacres committed by Serbs against Muslims and humanity
it does not deserve to be watching.
This documentary is so one-sided it makes me sick. No critisism of the oppinions expressed at all. Also it was aired on a Serbian tv-channel that is known for political alighnment. A number of statements in the documentary are presented without a sufficient amouth of background, portraying the Croats and Bosnians as daemons.
@ WTC 7
I'm Croatian, my wife is Serb. I have served in croatian army the whole time (1990 - 1996). Before war I have finished History and spet most of my life exploring this "Balkan" region. I don't hate Serbs (how could I when half of my relatives are Serbs).
Firs as I see you are moving again to WW2 and faschistsic croatian state that was nor croatian nor state. More like puppet of Italy and Germany. Here in Croatia we are aware of what they did to domestic Serbians and every normal person must be ashamed. BUT this is not a subject her although it's interesting part of history. I don't know why but every time I discuss with my Serbian friend they end with Jasenovac, one of the biggest mistakes of our history.
As we married, some Serbians from Serbia (not my local friends) started to saying that it's all Serbia. I never tought them serious till my naighbour whith I went to school with started to say so too. Then on local assembly together with mob started to yell: "This is Serbia". Then things become more seriously, specially after some viliges with serbian majority started to arm themselves. I'm telling you what I saw with my bare eyes and what I whitnesed and trust me I'm not making you some stories for children. My meaning was: Local Croatian Serbs were instrument of Serbian politics to star the plan, I was not aware of then, for creating Great Serbia.
Now, I'll say something as I entered into army in late 1990. My unit had 5 AK47, some little of ammunition, no uniforms. When we were on guard we had to share them (first time we had enough weapons and ammunitions was after the fall of first barrack). On the other side we were facing potential threat of vell organised and equipped Yugoslav army, and local Serbs who claimed that "this is Serbia". That's just one little segment of mosaic of what happened in Croatia in begining I have whitnesed to. ;)
now somethig else:
By constitution of Yugoslavia we had right to be independent, and Croatia, Slovenia were'n first that breached constitution. You have probably heard of "Jogurt revolution". (1988.) this was the first breach of constitution I believe aou are old enough to remember.
How would you describe tank and armoured colons together with soldiers that were coming FROM Serbia and Montenegro and destroying Croatia and Bosnia?
I can give you even more examples of fact that it was not a civil war it was an aggresion.
Let's be honsest and historrical correct Serbia is responsible for war in ex Yugoslavia. That doesn't mean that other sides didn't do war crimes.
Live the dream
Just one correction, the documentary was made in 1983. My apologies.
Tu?man was not an extreme nationalist, that is bs propaganda. Struggle against foreign oppression does not make you extreme nationalist. JNA with paramilitary forces tried to expand their territory into Croatia and they withdrew after they lost. They were even offered an autonomy (which is a lot more than they deserve) for the sake of peace and they declined that. Only choice Croatian leaders had was to defend their territory or not. That is really not much of a choice. Croats never surrendered to Turks in 150 years of war and they were a much bigger force than JNA.
This documentary, along with "The Death of Yugoslavia", tries to summarise the events which took place during the 90s in ex-Yugoslavia. As a Croatian, I am very pleased to hear/see the other side of the story.
Nevertheless, both documentaries fail to deliver an objective view of the events - one of them is anti-Serb, while the other one takes a complete and opposite side. As always, the truth is somewhere in between.
It is wrong to blame all Serbs, all Croats and/or all Bosniaks for it. It is also wrong not to blame the ones responsible for it.
First of all, every republic had its constitutional right to declare independence (recall that Yugoslavia was a federation of republics), and, again, by constitution, it was able to do so unanimously. Slovenia and Croatia did that on the same day. From that day on, JNA had no more authority over those territories. A bit before that act, and in order to "persuade" the Slovenians not to declare independence, they mobilised soldiers in Slovenia in the pretence of "guarding territorial borders". After that small incident, JNA withdrew from Slovenia. Why is that so? Surely not because they were, suddenly, "friends" again with the remainder of Yugoslavia.
Around the same time, in Knin, Milan Marti? refused to put Croatian's new emblems on his police station and to put himself under Croatian command. He accused Tu?man and his regime of ethnic cleansing, started the so-called Balvan revolution, and formed SAO Krajina (what would later become RSK). From that point on, he continually expatriated non-Serb population from that territory.
What he did during that time was, beyond any doubt, wrong - he was sentenced to a 35-year sentence by the ICTY. However, as to why he did it, and why he was able to do such a thing, is an entire different matter. On one hand, he was afraid of, and revolted by, Tu?man - a Croatian extreme nationalist who had recently gained power in Croatia. On the other hand, he was backed up by another extreme nationalist - Slobodan Miloševi?, with whom he shared most political views.
At the same time, Croatia was buying weapons on the black market, and Miloševi? turned JNA in his own private army, along with organising and training numerous paramilitary squads. In such a climate, an escalation was the only possible outcome of the situation.
A lot of hatred speeches were given and by this point both Tugman and Miloševic had already persuaded their respective people that the other party was the enemy, and, naturally, going to war was the only possible solution for both sides.
This was, unfortunately, just the overture for the real reasons for the war: Bosnia. There, Izetbegovi? led a similar, pro-independence movement. Both Tu?man and Miloševi? desperately needed allies in that region to conclude their agendas: to split Bosnia amongst themselves (recall the numerous meetings about Bosnia between the two while still officially at war with each other). They found Boban and Karadži?. The Serbs' policy was almost identical to the one done previously in Croatia, while the Croatians waited for the combat to start and then press the Bosniaks from Herzegovina.
This is, naturally, a very very simplified version of the facts who aims to show one simple truth: instead of fighting against each other, we should have fought together against the extremists we let rule us. Finally, this is one of the main reasons why there was no real war in Slovenia. It is not true that there were not many Serbs there, it just happens that none of them were such extremists.
This was has to be condemned on every side and the responsible ones have to be punished, whether they're Croats, Serbs or Bosniaks. Unfortunately for the hundreds of thousands of people, there will be no real justice since the main actors of this story are mostly dead, while others magically disappeared off of the face of the earth.
It is undoubtedly clear that Miloševi? and his politics led to the outbreak of the war, while Tu?man put more oil on the existing fire. We, the Croatians, are aware of our mistakes and ill-doings and are ready to apologise for them. Are the other parties involved ready to do so? I'm not quite sure...
Finally, I read all of the comments on this page and would like to address the "historical facts" discussion with a simple remark: does it really matter? Does it really matter who came were first and from??? What is more important - having a certain piece of land or living in peace and prosperity? I'm not saying one should put his pride aside or ignore it altogether, but before being Croat, Serb, or Albanian, we are all human being and as such we have to respect each other, not to peacefully, but to survive together.
the parizan movment started in serbia,and 1941 they were force to move in bosnia where all big ofensives took place and this is a fact and tito stayed on the power because of serbs and that was a public secret...and also i was in knin in 1990 and i heard croatian tv and radio news and other program and u were clirly against any staying of serbs in croatia and there was 1/3of people who lived in croatia SERBIAN and u can say enething now it just ur pure propaganda!!!
ww2 germans came in serbia and they told to a gouverment if we don't take care of comunist partizan movement they will let ustash ,bulgarian,romanian armys to take control of serbia so we did, knowing how much u and others like us and was smart choice couse even germans were in shock how brutal u were with civilians so they made a deal and save serbian civilians from evel like u r(bulgarians were just behind u)so was pretty safe till russians came in 1944 when real figting started and that is again the fact!!!
we didn't go as german popets in any country to fight for them like u did(ustash were even in russia)so i think i was pretty clear who was who in ww2!!!before we took u in yogoslavia after ww1 u didn't have no rights in austro-hungarian gouverment at all!!!we had a chance to make big serbian kingdom and slovenia and croatia would be a part of it so u would be our popets but we made u even with us ...
what a mistake(even one of cheh polititians at that time who was catolic said that ''who we r taking in new country as even ,u will put the knife in our back when we came upon some dificult times''and he was right and u did!!!and i am shure also that in croatia today live few serbs compering 1/3 of people before is really big %...and i know how ''frendly ''u r with a serbs today and u saying u have serbian friends ...that is very nice just if it is true...regards to all serbian''friends''
actually, antifascist partisan movement started in croatia and some of the fighters against fascists where leaders in the war for independence.
also, germans had a lot of allies in serbia during ww2.
probably, the most prosperous part of slovenian and croatian history was during austro-hungary and yugoslavia was a giant step back culturally and economically for both countries. one might say it was some sort of a punishment for misfortunate decisions of politicians before. now serbian politicians have made some bad decisions and their people have to pay the price (loss of kosovo for example).
we may not like it but this is how it goes.
There were a lot of serbs in croatia but a lot less than 1/3 and anyone who wanted to live in serbia regardless of nationality could have moved to serbia. a lot of serbs stayed and some of them are my close friends.
"protection" was just an excuse for attack for milosevic and his gang.
after ww2 came tito(he wasn't even croat...hes name is josip ambroz he was jewish who worked for rothsild familly who just hapend to control and rule the world and this familly has close biznis relations with vatican which u r the popets even today)who made those borders incorect and gave u a chance to split for the first time ever!!!in the last war serbia didn't have much serbs in slovenia,that's why wasn't problem over there for long so army left!!!in croatia 1\3 of people were serbs and they also had rights to choose about there belongings and they live there far longer then u!!!!when u declared independence in 1990 u had the same nazzy propaganda from ww2 so u were clirly against serbs and there was no place for serbs in ur new gouverment!!!serbian army was only in areas where serbs lived trying to protect them,they didn't atack any other country which is big diferents so u can't call ass agresors ,army was only in areas where serbs lived!!!also serbs didnt forget ww2 holocaust against them so naturally they stand to protect them self!!!u couldn't overpower serbs without help of u.s.a and western europa and u now that couse u now that u r second class solgers and against serbian army u didn;t have no chance alone!!!now u prove what would happend to serbian people there if they didn't defend them self in operation 'storm'where u were shooting at civilians from airplains and u send 250000 people to a ''new future''u didn't ofer in the beggining solution for serbs that is why war started couse u had this nazzy ideas fro ww2 and serbs didn't wonted to see that again!!!!on the other side nobody touch croatians population in serbia(in zemun alone which is part of belgrade live even today 100000 croatsand that is a pure fact and how many serbs live in croatia??!!!none)this show reall evel side and that is croatia!!!this is the 3-rd time in last century that u were against serbs!!!we didn't atack nobody we were just defending areas where serbs lived which is ortodox way(way of self deffens)and trough out history catolics and others were always atacking other nations and religions and u were forcing people to became catolics and killing in the name of jesus(what a irony)and i never heard that someone was force to became ortodox which show really evel sides and that is a fact!!!soon west will have there own problems so there will be no one to help u so will see how u hold ur self when u stay alone!!! serbia is small county but never was and never will be a popet of anybody!!!have a great day !!!!god bless!!!
to hunter gatherer@and others with the same story!!!slovenia and croatia has there independence only because of serbia!!!ww1 we were on the side of winners and u with germany(u never had u freedom and county in history,u were always slaves and popets of super powers and serbia had before turkey with turkey we had some rights and afterwe had freedom again!!!)sowe had chance to make then kingdom of serbia and we choose to take u with us in yugoslavia(big mistake!!!!)and this is the firts time in history u had ur freedom and independence!!!(never before like u making the history now)and 20 years later u pay us respect in ww2 by killing 1.7million serbs and others in holocaust way(we couldn't defend us)u were again on side of nazzy germany wich show how much u hate serbia!!!
Interesting....I've watched the whole documentary and I'm personally quite infatuated by it. Let me Digress..I'm Serb, and I've spent the whole war in Sarajevo, so rest assured, this whole talk about fundamentalist muslim lunatics bombing their own markets and slaughtering serbs on every corner is complete nonsense. We all tried our best to live through the daily terror we were put through - Serbs, Muslims and Croats alike. My father faught in the Bosnian army, because he faught for the right cause, unlike the monsters on the hillsides. At one point in the documentary, they say ''Sarajevo wasn't under a siege'' - trust me, folks - it was!
Again, as someone who lived through the war, I can honestly say that this documentary is complete and utter propaganda, trying to rationalise and minimalise the fact that the Serbs were the agressors.
And one more thing: As much as the Serb people were historically an antifascist, civilised nation that sufferend enormously at the hands of the fascist Ustase, they have tainted their name in the wars of the 1990's!
Some participators in this joke of a documentary are trying to push trough an idea that Slovenia and Croatia had no right to declare independence when in fact they had every right to do so, historically and legally. Many other states in other federations of the eastern block did it, only they were lucky enough not to have heavily armed savages as their neighbors.
Independence in Croatia was declared in a parliament that was chosen on democratic elections.
Calling this a civil war is also very annoying, it was a war between states, with one state trying to expand its territory into another and eventually loosing(luckily for us living here).
just to let people know this doc is from serb perspective lots of lies
This granny dont know many things. JNA have mostly Serbs in head of Army and those who are half Croat half Serbs or Slovenians are raised in atheist way with no sence for domestic people. And people in Army of JNA was not local. Those war Serbs mostly moved to Krajina region and kids of that Generals of JNA who are bring to Croatia to make plan of Greater Serbia in which JNA withdraws to Croatia and make border Karlovac, Virovitica, Karlobag with totaly occupated Bosnia and Herzegovina. From 1989 there was plan for this in JNA called "Operacionalizacija".
@ openmind. Well I am happy for you that you find such joy in the bombing and killing of thousands of innocent civilians, a true good human being you are arn't you. Your most likely a Bosnian or Albanian your not fooling anyone, They are the only puppets to the west in the Balkans, go eat some tofu out of Obama's a** and for beverages knock back a few warm ones from Bushes own supply. Do some history research and learn to come to grips with the evil that your people engage in everyday and then continue to bend over for the west as right now they are the only thing standing between your fake little dreamworld and reality...
Seriously, this is another attempt by the serbian nationals who started the war in the Baltic to cover up their genocide that happaned in the former Yugoslavia.
There are no direct links of Bin Laden ever visiting the Former President of Bosnia & Hercegovina.
If you want to point fingers at someone for giving power to Bin Laden point them straight at the USA cause they are the ones that actually put him where he is today, just cause in Bosnia majority of the people are muslim doesn't meant that they share the same ideas as Bin Laden alas.
and to conclude;
You have only your selfs to blame for all the blood shed that happaned in the region, long gone are your dreams of a great serbia now you are on your knees, even serbian is breaking up into small countries karma has a funny way of biting you in the ass when you least expect it.... and now you have no choice but to turn to the west and be there puppets, do not forget that we bombed you and to us you are and always will remain the bad guys !!!!
to alex@hey my friend chek ''ring of power''and also ''end game'' then prof.dr.jovan deretic'' forbiden history of serbs''then chek material from dejan lucic...wnen u finish i''l give u more material everything should be more clear after...regards dexy71@
To Milan no fighting on Serbian soil because not many Muslims and Croats in Serbia at the time causing trouble. A lot of Serbs lived in Croatia and Bosnia that's why they was fighting their. I was born in Croatia, in Zadar and all the Serbs there were killed in the streets if they couldn't get out on time, we were lucky because my baby sitter was a close friend of the family and also a Croatian women and she warned us of the death squads. Me, my brother and my mother got out with a suitcase and my uncle refused to leave so he was strung up in his apartment and his beard set alight followed by a number of stab wounds and gun shots throughout his body.
The first blood was drawn in Slovenia when a young Yugoslav soldier was dragged out his tank and strangled to death by an angry mob. My dad fought in the war and has pictures with many soldiers fighting along side him who were both Muslim and Croation and believed in brotherhood and unity. Germany and the West founded the war for the Croats and Bosnians otherwise there would of been no war.
Most of the worst Muslim soldiers were Mujahideen soldiers founded by Saudi Arabia, who committed a majority of the worst war crimes, blood may be thicker then water but oil has proven to be much thicker then blood. We all kill our brothers while the West watches and laughs just like in WW1 & 2. Croatia propaganda machine was out of control because I was too scared to leave Croatia as they depicted Serbs as crazy chetniks who rape and kill everyone even Serbs, so I a Serb was afraid of Serbs, wasn't until I got to Bosnia that I saw refugee camps full of Serbs, Muslims and Croats fleeing the war and the camps were protected by those same "crazy" Serbs I learned to fear in Croatia.
If Serbia is going around trying to take everyones land since we started, why is Serbia only getting smaller every few decades? Serbia is much more superior in regard to military. Why are Serbs and Palestinians among the most displaced people on earth? I live in Australia now and it's not because of the wether either. I was born in Zadar and I cannot return even on holiday as I may be jailed or beaten for war crimes even though I was 6 when we fled. My auntie is Croation and her family wanted my uncle and his kids (my cousins) dead even though they were born in Croatia and are half Croation themselves.
Every Albanian, Bosnian and Croation are getting away with murder in the Haag, while Serbs are getting prosecuted for everything from jay walking to genocide and the founders of UCK (KLA) have been given stolen land to conduct their criminal activities on. NATO said it was a war on Milosevic, so why then so many civilian deaths? Why bomb hospitals, refugee camps, ancient bridges, radio stations, police stations, residential areas, even the school I attended from a refugee camp outside Beograd was bombed, why?
Using illegal weapons, like cluster bombs and leaving depleted uranium all over the place. Then to get relocated by the Serbian government to Kosovo to try and re populate it only to get put right back in the heart of terror with Albanians freely and openly terrorizing, killing and burning all Serbian land, Serbs, gypsies, Bosniaks, Turks and even Albanians friendly towards Serbs all under the UN's nose. Now imagine this and that's just me, there were hundreds of thousands of Serbs just like me who went through the same and in most cases worse.
So maybe people should try and stop looking at every Serb as a Serb and consider the fact that we human as well, speak the same language, listen to the same music and eat the same food. You call this doc propaganda, but for every source shedding a positive light on Serbs there a million other condemning Serbia and it's people and glorifying Croats, Bosnians and Albanians. So if this angers you imagine how the Serbs feel...
to berat@SERBIA is steel country with ACADEMY OF SCIENTIST!!!OUR SCIENTIST IN 20 CENT. made clear presents!!!NIKOLA TESLA THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME who found tree way electricity system which all modern world relay on it today plus 200 other patents which modern scientists EVEN today can't explain what it is,but for u that is not important couse u steel using candles in Albania (i had in Yugoslav army Albanian roomy and he didn't even know how to flash the toilet but every time him and other Albanians vent to toilet they would bring bottle of water with them to clean there ass which is i have to admit very advance tech and if the world here about it u''ll have patent on ur own...lolololol),THEN WE HAD MIHAILO PUPIN,AND THE SAINT EPISKOP NIKOLAJ VELIMIROVIC WHO EVEN GOT MEDAL FROM AMERICAN CONGRES,he spoke 17 langr.had 2 ph dr.titles and
I could't watch this movie till the end...it's so full of lies and not worth of watching...serbian propaganda is the kindest thing I can say about it and don't want to go further by describing it.
But i would like to mention some things...
- By Yugoslavian constitution every republic has it's right to claim independence...and so Croatia,Slovenia and later Bosnia did.
- It was not civil war as it is often told in these foreign documentaries...it was an agression of one country to another...in this case from Serbia to Croatia and Bosnia and Hercegovina. Imagine that someone say that German attack to France was a civil war ?!?! How awful that sounds ...exacly.
- Yugoslavian folk's army (JNA) was first one to shoot...and JNA ( 4th largest army in the world) was under the command of serbian.
- In movie mentioned Mig 21 was former JNA mig...croatian pilots served in JNA and did not want to kill it's own people and on one mission they simply flew over to croatian forces instead of fighting them. Great credits to Rudolph Peresin ...first one to do it.
- Embargo was a joke...but croatians recived weapons from black market not from Germany...payed with money donated by croatian emigration trough the world...Great thank to them...
I could go on and on but it's too much writing involved....so I'l start with some intriging facts.
-In croatian army there were a lot of soldiers of serbian nationality. How come they fought along with croatians?
-How come Slovenians, Croats,Bosnians and Albanians are all wrong and Serbia is good ??..Conspiracy??? maybe someone is tricking with you.
-How come war happened to be in Croatia and Bosnia...no bullets fired in Serbia...
my final thoughts:
It is very wrong to blaim all serbians. We must know that the ideology of Great serbia is to blame along with the extremist who followed that ideology with Slobodan Milosevic and his followers. I truthly belive that Serbian propaganda managed to fool serbian people through media which led to greater hate and conflict.
With that being said...I don't hate serbs, I don't think they are better or worst people than croats...i just think they are not ready to confess themselves real truth which they feel inside.
I also must say that croats did crime in war...some crimes were prosecuted by law and some are still waiting prosecution...but those crimes were not a result of politics...nor were they ordered by goverment to be done...those crimes were done by individuals, and I am truthly ashamed that those individuals are croats.
Now, when I take a look of International politics of today...everybody Is trying to make it equal...along with Haag court...some realy Honorable people ended in Haag just to make it equal, like Blaški? who was later released with a drasticaly reduced verdict.
Point is you cannot make equal victims with agressors...crime happened on all sides but it was the biggest blame on searbs.
Onfortunately we all wait for truth to be written by historians... the very same truth to be written in all scool books...croatians, serbians and bosnians.
Try to imagine for a moment that someone tells you that America and Germany is equaly to blame for WW2 ?!?!. That's what it's like for us today. Feels very wrong and we all want just the truth to come out...on paper...confirmed by all sides involved.
That's all from me and best regards to you all
Milan from Croatia
Well thank you for "your" insight Prof Berat or is it Dr Berat? Your wise words of wisdom have inspired me to see the light... ok really Berat are you a meth addict? Now just to be clear Berat, I do my research before posting ignorant rubbish like yours online so here's a bit of info about your "respected" auther:
Noel Malcolm's book Kosovo. A Short History is not a scientific work, yet the general public, and even some professional circles, have accepted it as an objective presentation of the past, notably the past of Kosovo. The publicity it has received in many media in the West as well as its eager inclusion in the holdings of many libraries bear witness to that.
Noel Malcolm's book is undoubtedly a phenomenon. In other words, it demonstrates the extent of the betrayal of the historical truth and the manipulation of the past of nations, regions or states for the sake of the political ends of the day. It was a commonplace view that such books are possible only in totalitarian societies. But we can see that the appearance of such books is also possible in a milieu which, until recently at least, could not be called totalitarian, and that it is possible within a historiog-raphy excelling in great authors and trustworthy works.
Noel Malcolm has begun his studies of South-East Europe recently, at the time when the process of disintegration of the Yugoslav state was beginning. So he very rapidly became an expert in the history of the "regions go-ing through a crisis" and of "unstable regions". He has produced a short history of Bosnia, to be followed by this one of Kosovo, so that he can be expected to manufacture "a short history" of Dagestan or Chechnya tomorrow. He resembles a little, in everything, a "holy warrior" brandishing a pen in his hand. With his "history" of the regions with which he deals he caters to the demands of the political moment. In this particular case, to the demands of the Great Albanian project and NATO political plans in South-Eastern Europe.
So there you have it Berat, that auther is about is credible is Steven King. Like I said Berat you know the truth. And why are you Albanians always always talking about Illyria, let it go your Albanian, I know it's embarrassing but it was the card you were dealt, you have a rich 600 year history of genocide, betrayal and ass licking (more then in any porno). I try to be open minded with you or any Albanian but you can't have a civilized discussion because you guys are always talking bout ancient civilizations that you in your head have some sort of a bond with and mindless unsupported accusations that you get from your grandfather.
I live in Australia now and I have Bosnian and Croat friends and we get along fine but Albanians only hang with themselves because everyone else cannot stand them. I don't understand your ideology? Is it just keep saying something until it becomes true? I lived in Kosovo Berat, why you think I'm in Australia now? Did the Serbs Genocide me out even though I'm Serb, did the Serbs burn my village? Was it the Serbs that destroyed all the Orthodox churches and monasteries? Not just that I got Muslim Bosnian and Muslim Turk friends who were also forced to flee from Kosovo because of the UN allowed the nuttiest of you Albanians to run amuck and destroy everything Serb and everything not Albanian. So ask yourself this Berat, does pretending that Albanians are sin free and Serbs are evil monsters make you feel better about yourself or is the guilt slowly eating you away? And don't you worry about Kosovo it will be back in Serbian hands where it belongs after the West throws you guys in the bin like I used condom, history proves it and current events support it...
To; Dexy71, Alex and the rest of the sadly BLIND serbs in this forum.
I can only see that my comment has had a very interesting effect.I even see that no matter if we live in 1990, 1999, 2010 or probably 2050 serbs are going to be serbs and nothing Smart or good to expect from them rather than some new war probably against the hungarians in the north or maybe the very less Bosniacs in Sangjak.But whatever, I know as well as my dearest nation in world (Serbian)knows the Serbian theories one of the them '' Serbia is till Tokyo'' sadening right:( but hell true just as true as their crimes thru centuries in west Balkans.
I am very happy that world did not look at Serbia and serbs as they look toward them but bombed their ass and when I say world I do not mean USA but the most civilised and democratic countries as part of the most competent organisation in world (NATO).
I read somewhere that I should pray to god to have a History book in my hands well I do pray to god but not to give me the chance to read cuz I have that and I am using it in the best possible way but why I pray to god is hopinf for some change in your closed, narrow, dark nationalism.
Maybe I can help on this matter, try opening your minds by reading a very good book ''Kosovo a short story'' (not albanian author) but the very respected Prof. Noel Malcolm
from the Oxford University.Hmm, how about some good history book rather than chetnik ideology and cheap gypsy turbofolk music :)
I, also read somewhere in your comments that if albanians were that old as they pretend to then, they should have been some developed country and some Bible saying that you see a tree upon his fruits, this sentence gives me a very clear message that the above mentioned participants of this forum do not have a clue in questions of History and even less in questions of Ancient History.
According to their theory,if Greece would have given so much Philosophy, Arts and Sports to Europe and the World they must be today #1 in Europe in terms of economical development,democracy and so on... well they are not some much more modern countries and nations are, I hope you know who they are.
I as well,sadly read that Kosovo today is the country where crime, drugs and corruption dominates well just for your POOR knowledge let me inform you that Serbia was and is a criminal state begining from the genocide of the 90's till the Murder of poor Zoran Djindjic.And, not everything stopps here,you all know my fellows how bad situation in Serbia actually it is worse than in Kosovo.You all know how much drugs and weapons you export to europe and the world, I am not saying that, this drug passes thru Kosovo but at least we are just consolidating our new state that we fought since ottoman time for. and you have your own state much more before but unfortunately a criminal one. Well,I say criminal cuz I rely on the International court in Hague,you only need to check the number of serbs being accused there,if they would be albanians I would be ashamed of and proud as you are proud of Milosevic,Arkan,dr.Dabic :)Mladic and so on...
Finally, let me again wish you some more pure History, some more responsibility toward the victims you caused, some more knowledge to know who you really it wont damage you at all, it will just help you get over faster with the fact,that you are too modern to know about Illyria and the Illyrians, they are just too ancient for your History books :)
wish you all best
sincerely yours,
Berat Gashi
to alex @yes my friend they all talk bad about but they all watch serbian movies lisn'serbian music speak SERBIAN lang.it is so funny even the countrys around(romania ,bulgaria etc)like someone sad many times ''we don't give a damn'' what they saying!!!
Something pretty funny just to mention it so people can see the error of their ways.
Firstly everyone here is going on saying their own versions of whatever and basing this thought on a clip from youtube or a web page from some bitter deranged nut job. Sorry to say but youtube is not peer reviewed and anyone can make a documentary saying whatever and of course even I could make a web page saying anything I want, like maybe for example I am Serbian so I might want to make Serbs look like stand up people so I might write on my web page that Serbs are direct decedents of Jesus and the profit Mohamed, why not say it, they were both great guys, spread the good word weather out of the Bible or Qur'an. Too bad none of this is true, still some may read it and if i throw up enough "supporting evidence" they may accept it as fact. Just to explain peer reviewed means that a journal article, book or any other academic text has been passed around and reviewed by many academics who are considered experts in that field (Dr's, Prof's, etc) and the article can then only be published and distributed if all of these many many pro's agree on what is being written, therefore extremist nut jobs can't just write whatever because they would not be passed by the academic community.
Secondly because of this I really say only what I can support with "peer reviewed" texts. I'm not going lie and say I'm completely unbiased in this ins-tense because I am very biased, spending your childhood and early teens running around a war torn land and watching all your family and friends (Muslim, Orthodox or Catholic) getting killed and raped really instills a great deal of bitter resentment in any individual. However if i only focus on peer reviewed articles I can't run off tangent like a lot of people here and start talking rubbish that is unsupported.
Thirdly is it just me or do the Croats, Bosnians and Albanians define who they are by their hatred of Serbs? I mean I go and check out some Balkan music on youtube and things about Serbia (for example Tourist spots) and the comments sections is just full of C's, B's and A's going off at how Serbs are evil, the do genocide blah blah blah, and it's like on a new music clip by Ceca or something, funny ay.
to berat@ the slaves r one big nation and that is why we all speak simular lang.and we have the simular flags and other stuff from russia to poland and south to serbia we r same family and u albanians r only conected to ur selfe and u came to area where u at today from sicily in 12 century and one of the conection is vendeta couse only u and sicily has that low to promise rivenge in the blood and no one else which show that u r(albanians )pretty rood and over proud nation with no history no education and u r use by west for there own interes couse it is easy to use pesants and non educated people.i grow up in belgrade and one of may best friends was albanian..he finish even colege and he was steel under big influence of his father who didn't even finish the high scool.!so every generation is better and smarter then previous and it is ok to respect ur parents but they can't teel u 100%what to do especially if they don't have education couse they will pull u back.i know very well ur life sistem and it is really old (1000 years ago )which doesn't fly today,so that is why it was easy for west to use u for there own couse...did u realy think that u r important...don't be silly!!!
Thanks dexy71, you are right. Unfortunately the truth is that ignorance is bliss. No one wants to accept that they are descended from a bunch of traitors and crooks who would sell their own children for a profit. So they make up stories like the one Berat likes to tell his children before bed time. you know the one that goes: The Monsters (Serbs) are chasing all the hero's (fantasy Illyrains) for no reason just because Serbs are evil and get off on it, but don't threat because in the end the hero's destroy the Serbs dungeons (which are actually churches and monasteries in real life land) and the hero's win with the help of the American angels who rain down fire and brimstone all over innocent civilians all over Serbia and Kosovo, the end Kosovo is Albania's...
Berat you nut job. You should prey to god to get your illiterate self a history book or something. History is written in truth, too bad today's knowledge stem from media and ignorance and fairy tales your parents tell you of the great Illyria. The Balkans are made up of many different groups of people and throughout the thousands years they all mixed and integrated, your Albanian not Illyrian, same as Greeks are Greeks and not Spartans and Athenians. I may be Serbian but if I too ignorantly look back thousands of years I could be Turkish, Persian, Roman, African for all I know. Some more fun facts for Berat:
- Albanians were non existent in the Kosovo region until the Ottomans overran the Balkans and your great and proud ancestors bent over and took it up the a** in order to get Serbian lands and a tax break.
- When the Serbs finally fought off all the Turks there were a large population of left over Albanians who the Serbs let stay in Kosovo.
- In WW1 & WW2 you great people the Albanians were Nazi's fighting for Hitler, Serbs were once again forced for fight for survival as one of the only peoples in the Balkans openly opposing the Nazi organization. As a result Albanians were once again rewarded for their prostitution by getting, stealing land belonging to the thousands of ethnically cleansed Serbs.
- Too bad for you guys that Hitler was defeated and then Tito took power of Yugoslavia. Luckily for you however Tito was more concerned with internal peace and stability of Yugoslavia that he did not take time to consider consequences of some of his actions. For example Tito did not allow the surviving Serbs who were ethnically cleansed from Kosovo to return to Kosovo as he knew the Albanians will go nuts like always.
- So Serbs have been ethnically cleansed from Kosovo since the late 1400's and still the few left hold on tight.
- Albanians throughout the 20th century have been focused on getting rid of the remaining Serbian population, then in the late 90's when Slobodan Milosevic finally had enough of the terrorism he sent the Serb army in. The cowardly UCK (KLA) quickly ran away leaving dead Serbian civilian bodies in the wake and using the media and saying that they are Albanians civilians. The KLA is a world recognized terrorist group so what America did was get them to dismantle and then gave the leaders of the KLA Kosovo to govern. That is why there are no jobs, no prospects, nothing from Albanian run Kosovo. It relies soley on aid from the EU and America to sustain any kind of life. It is now a criminal State, running drugs, weapons, organ snatching and sex slave rings.
- Like I said the West decides weather you Albanians live or die, and Albanians know this, that is why they let America build military bases all over the place and why you people are sooo eager to please by building the statue of liberty on Serbian holey lands, naming streets after Clinton (who should have to face court for war crimes).
- Kosovo Albanians are sort of like a young hooker, you may have something to offer the west for now in your youth, but as you age and the looks aren't there anymore you's will all be back out on the street trying to turn a new trick and by the way, Serbs, Greeks and Maco's are not going to be too happy with you and without the Wests support I'm sure your people will quickly turn to god for support weather religious or not.
By the way I don't expect anyone to believe what I say, I can talk as much Sh*t as Berat if I wanted to. All I'm saying for anyone, weather Serb, Albanian, Bosnian, Croat through to American, Aussie and English, do some research (and I don't mean Wikipedia) on the subject, make your own informed decisions on what you think from proper sources, don't let documentaries and your government dictate how you should feel or think on a certain issue.
Hi to my all dear serbian fellows,
My name is Berat and I am from Kosovo,giving a try to explain the serbs whether albanians are the oldest nation in west balkan is just the same as trying to convince myself that Snow is Black and not white. I am amazed of their ignorance and apparently after 20 years i will still be amazed of their ignorance because they simply do not change.
It needs another 1000 years to put this nation on the right tracks, after hundreds of generations of believing that they are the victims, that they are killed, theis children killed and their women raped then there is nothing smart to expect from the actual generations.
I am zero religious but I would start praying to God to help you people open your eyes, admit that you serbs of today, your the grandsons of murderers of yesterday, your hands are wet from the blood innocent albanian, croatian and bosnian children. After holocaust,world has never seen that what serbs caused in Yugoslavian wars. I am glad and very happy that I can easily proof my ancient roots of Illyria, I speak albanian, and not some serb or serb-like-language which is nothing else but a dialect of Carpatean and Ural mountains of Russia. And I beg to you as soon as you admit the crimes and suffer you caused the better is for you. Otherwise you will never rest in peace and will never enjoy that piece of land called serbia you occupied from others.
Otherwise, I think if west balkans is not a place for you then you all can pack your luggage and go back to your russian brothers-destination Chernobyl region.
May God help you on your long and hard way to admit the crimes and blood we all had to shed because of your nasty appetites.
sincerely yours,
Berat
to alex@ hey my friend you r write about it and just chek my coments and see that no one of this ''history profesors;''couldn't even say anything couse they know what is true and they now that there 'facts'' r weak,exept one man who was saying that albanians r the oldest in balkans...lolol''if it is that true they would probably have much more develope nation then they do now regarding economy couse all old nations in the world have it especialy in europa and look at them ,what they have!!!education zero,history events very few till now!!!ther is a saying in the bible,,the tree u recognize by fruits'' so everything is pretty clear!!! regards dexy 71
P.s. calm down hardcore gangsta haters who seem to scream ridiculous nonsense at these kind of things, do some research don't just repeat what your semi-senile grandfather who's been in 50 wars mumbles in a drunken haze. And just a message for pro western Bosnians and Albanians, when your use in the Balkans runs out for the West so quickly will your existence. Early 20th century Serbs were seen as hero's and now look at they way they are being treated, so make peace with your nieghbours, try befriend some Serbs, Bosnians, Croats or Albanians and see that media propaganda is different from real life...
haha, it's funny to me how any documentary that even gives Serbs a grain of dignity and humility is seen as propaganda and rubbish and is quickly dismissed. See I'm Serbian and that would make an evil, angry bitter person who loves to kill and rape ay? Because all Serbs are killers and rapists and all other parties involved in the wars are poor friendly nice people who don't want war. I lived through the war born in Croatia, lived in many refugee camps around Bosnia and Serbia, and was sent to settle in Kosovo, Evil that men do is nothing strange to me and now due to Albanians American sponsored terrorism I live in Auslralia.
Lets state facts:
- WW1 & WW2 Croats, Muslims (Bosnian) and Albanians were all very eagerly Nazi supporters.
- Serbs have always fought against Nazi's and millions of Serbs died defending and helping the rest of the Allied forces, this includes Americans who so eagerly bombed Beograd to the ground even on orthodox Easter.
- The west puts out propaganda against Serbs and Serbia to justify it's divide and conquer tactics, in what other situation and another countries solverign land be stolen away like the situation in Kosovo, where the land was stolen and then gift wrapped and handed over to the terrorists know as UCK (KLA)
- The western media always seems to focus on orthodox vs Muslims, when in fact it has nothing to do with religion and Bosnian's and Albanians are about as Muslim as Serbs are Buddhist. It makes no sense just because you don't eat pork doesn't make you a Muslim, i don't eat pork or drink does that make me a Muslim?
- All Bosnian Muslims are in reality, is Serbs who converted to Islam for preferential treatment under Ottoman rule, in other words a people who's whole existence stems from an open act of tretury against their own people.
- Serbs do not hate Muslims in fact most countries that Serbia is on good grounds with are Middle Eastern Muslim countries and Most of the Muslim countries in the world do not recognize or accept Kosovos independence, except for Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan, who are on America's pay role.
So you see Serbs being the boogie man is a great story to tell nowdays but i am confident that history will look back on these sorts of dehumanizational tactics and accept that it was all in the name of Western Politics, resources and tactical strategy.
Way not stop some of this hate on Serbia and focus on helping the Palestinian people who are being terrorized everyday for the past 60 years, or the disease and famine stricken African communities. Nah not likely, "war on terror" and Illegal occupation are much more profitable.
This is not a documentary, this is PROPAGANDA.
Who the hell are this people and WHERE is the hard evidence?;apparently everything was a sham and the Serbians did nothing wrong but defend themselves.
I understand and realize that threw out the "documentary" more then ones its mentioned that "all sides" committed ETHNIC CLEANSING, this makes me laugh as all you have to do is look at the numbers of the victims and their nationalities to realize who the bad guys where - oh cant doo that because apparently people were killing their own people TO MAKE SERBIANS LOOOOOOK BAD.
Take this film and shove it
Its ridicules
Its pathetic
Its propaganda
and it shouldn't be on this website
HIGHLY DISAPPOINTING as i was hoping to watch a neutral, FACTUAL documentary.
jjjj
True, this is our common planet. None of us has more or less entitled to the possession of the country.
But the Serbs have no legitimate right to convince my mother and raped my sister while I was in school.
War is war my friend, and should understand it very personally.
The only answer to the question: Why do you want to kill me? is important
On the side of Hitler, Tito and the Americans. I do not want to go to war with you.
You personally probably possess greater knowledge than me on the subject of history.
Politics, religion? These are not reasons.
Besides not ethnically pure Croatia to the extent you think. These are misconceptions.
Respect.
Also that Serbs in Croatia they was have legitimate right to independence of Croatia(Historical right and History is not Tito's and Hitler's borders),but they was be banned for there and Croatia is today Ethnic most clean democratic State in Europe,for all rest question,you can ask yours Historical Grand sister Germany,and this modern US.
I am a Croat. Croatia is keen to independence. Croatian people so pleaded. For some, it's not convenient.
Yugoslav army tried to prevent the exercise of our legitimate right to independence.
They gave their best in order to trace mislaid our existence.
They failed.
Yes, we killed, slaughtered, destroyed, as they knew, and instead of trying to maintain its previously present in the Yugoslav borders.
They failed.
If one day try to do something similar, we will be "welcome" in Croatian.
I am a Croat. All my life I live in Croatia. For me, no question of who is responsible for the war in Croatia.
End of story.
tony , george, dexy , and others i feel you all have pretty good points cause you people were lucky to live through the worst war that happen there. I remember hearing about it in the papers where I lived in Maine yrs ago.but I had learned a lot just by reading your comments I just wanted to put a good word in for all who wrote here.
well I did not go to the end of this cause I see a lot all sides trading in this war..the U.S.of A played sides ...like it did in Lebanon ..." the're are never real peace keepers
in any area of the world. it is some times in war some people are speared from which side another government plays a role on.it all boils up each side not for getting there histories or there ethnic back grounds..or the're religion. just political powers that people have to go against each other on. it is the innocent people like the children. and families from all sides of that country suffered from the war
I believe a peace settlement could of been settled by all that had a hand in this situration.to have all that governs there section. but it is pressure and threats some times a leader is asked to pull back cause of his life could be threaten. I see the Serb leader was a bad guy what media tells me. what I like to see is real peace between the people. not those that govern the people I would like to see a ever lasting peace in Nations and to except each other. "But I can only see that it will never be in some countries Peace is more like seeing it in a dream... But I do like to see peace one day when every one in every nation can come together...like Doctor Martin Luther King said one day as he said ...I have a dream"
The bosnians loved brandy when they were secular muslims. After the war and great support from Saudi Arabia and Iran that has completely changed. Nowdays those secular people changed their views into very radical hardcore muslim.
Great documentary,Serbs is not only one victims in that War,but they are yes only one victims West civilization.This is only one documentary where i can see truth about Srebrenica to bad is becouse everybody hide Iran's EL MUDZAHED army in Bosnia.This is Serbian site no Pro-Serbian documentary.
New-Old Hitler alredy exist,that is America and all brothers around Babylon building in Brisel.Bildenbergs-Imperialistic civilization with all Black nobility is started this and practicly every War in this planet.Two continents in this World not know what they are eat tomorrow.
Everybody chill out!!
to mike
I guess Dado does not believe in Santa. Don't worry mike it is the Balkans by the time someone starts making a neutral movie there will be another war. Let`s say when Santa Claus or another Hitler comes to power of the Balkans and Mrs.
Damir Claus maybe they together will make things right during that war. Since for some of them the war anger and rage within them non stop of every moment and are waiting for another to take revenge.
You see Santa Claus is the EXACT reason why it's so hard for people to come to peace. Some people just believe in different things and not him. When they should be open to other views and say hey maybe some of these things did happen. Wow both sides are f/"$ed. A lot of people don't believe in him ;-) or that there is both sides to every story.
Then they get angry when Santa Claus for one documentary I mean Christmas misses their chimney and lands on their HEAD!
Ho ho ho
:) Santa
I think a lot of these films are a little bias. 'Death of Yugoslavia' sides with Kosovean albanians,Slovenia,Croatia and Bosnia muslim pop. and this film is very Pro-Serbian. I only wish we could watch a purely objective and neutral documentary on this conflict
to WTC7
yeah, send my best regards to santa claus.I assume you believe in him too?for many reasons, offcourse. lol
I do, for many reasons, Dado
the only thing i got from all those comments is there are people in this world whose english is worse than mine...
poor serbs...
does anyone buy this proserbian propaganda movie?!
lol
greetings from sarajevo, dado
To Dexy
Ok Dexy. You still didn't answer my question.
1st: What do you wanna do with the Albanians?
2nd: What's the solution? - What is that you think that if done, the bloodshed in Balkans (Be it Albanian, Serb, Bosnian, Croatian, Greek, Bulgarian, Macedonian or Turkish) will finally end?
Tell me
Have fun, George
to george!
My friend they already got what they wanted (Kosovo) and don't be naive... do u know what they do now to rest of Serbian population in Kosovo???!!! You should check few Italian documentaries and then get back to me!!!
It look like when Serbs get killed or else is no big deal but when Albanian get killed it is like someone important!!! The history we learn (including u, was Communist oriented and since the Serbia is Orthodox country the Communist wanted to delete as much as possible cause they hate Orthodox in order to heart and rule better)
Communism was financed from same source who bomb the Serbs in many occ. Even during ww2 (eastern) which is Zionist movement who clearly have goal to destroy Orthodox fate in any way (cause they r Jewish). In last 50 years after ww2 almost every war had the same scenario-they would find area or country where majority r Christians and minority Muslims and they would peak a fight to help Muslims and after some time they would even win or get peace of land or else!!!! (Chechnya, Bosnia, Lebanon, Cyprus etc.)
So how is that possible unless they get help from the west who finance both sides (arms etc.) and at the end they come as peacemakers!!! They pushing Muslims against Christians so they end up neutral making profits and controlling both sides for own interest and in process the other 2 r suffering!!! They r pro-Zionist organizations who control the western part of the world!!!
I recommend to u to see doc. Ring of Power and i hope u'll understand little better what i am trying to say here!!!!thanks.
"Zionist" What are you talking about we are not talking about Arabs/Israel.
IT's Balklans. Israel is with Palestine, but not in conflict wotith Bosnian Muslims.
"Zionist Zionist"
Was Ante Pavelic Croat a "Zionist" Israel didn't exist till 1948! Was Chetniki "Zionist?"
Croat Ustashe and Serb Chetniki both hate Titoism. OBVIOUSLY.
To Dexy
So ok dexy. I cannot really argue or discus with you guys. I bet you learn at your schools that you *Serbs* are Illyrians or you were her all the time etc etc. -This is just, I don't know how to describe. In one word, your claiming is just ineffable. There is no word to describe your collective ignorance/propaganda.
So let's forget about it.
The question is now. WHAT TO YOU WANT TO DO WITH ALBANIANS?
Shall we kill them all, or send them somewhere, or throw them to the sea or what? - What do you wanna do with them?
to george!
You r write about Illirians but they were not Albanians!!!! one of the prove that Serbs live there far before any body else is emperor Constantin and empress Yelena (Serbian orthodox names). he was born around Nish which is town in southern part of Serbia and he was the first one to announce Christianity as official religion in Roman empire at 313 b.c.!!!! Which happen 2-3 century's before the ''big movement of slaves''.!!!! Skadar which was a capital of old Serbian country was for 1000 years before dynasty of Nemanic, which started in 10 century!!! So the question is if the Serbs came together with slaves in 6 century as a peasants how is possible that they establish kingdom so fast!!!
Skadar is town in Albania today but is clear that was Serbian land far before any Albanian came there!!!! u have thumbs of Serbian kings in Skadar and u also had several saints (saint Vladimir e.t.c)!! What u r talking about is Jewish catholic history 'fact' but they couldn't hide all the evidence!!! in Kosovo 1999 before Serbian army strikes on paramilitary army of Kosovo they were controlling 90%of territory of Kosovo except Pristina (capital) and 5 km around the border.
Now the question is how is that possible in one country with police and secret service and also if it is possible is it possible over night??? of course not, at that time our president Milosevic clearly allowed that to happen cause he didn't have interest in protecting Serbs in any parts which we all know what happened in Krajina, he was send by west to destroy Serbs and he clearly cared only about his own interest which we all know during hes time he robed Serbian nation bringing us to financial collapse in just few years!!! now 1974 Tito gave Albanians write to separate and after Tito came Milosevic who clearly continued to act like Tito, and his wife Mira Markovic is just happened to be a family of Tito???!!!
This is not coincidence!!! there was famous Tito saying ''after Tito again Tito"!!! Now Tito wasn't even Croat he was Jewish supported by famous Rothschild family from Vienna he clearly didn't care about Serbs so Milosevic but Milosevic was payed big time from west and possible Albanian lobby, and there was even a public joke in Serbia at that time that he sold Kosovo!!! At the time of his arrest and escape of his son Marko they found several account in swiss banks on 100 million each and also one in china 1.5 billion dollars!!!!
Do u know how much money is that to be made in just few years by one person!!! Belgrade at the time of economical sanction was no.1 city in the world for money laundry so how much money the west made including private people over there!! And in any small country in the world do u think that presidents r voted by people or the r brought there by powerful lobby for interest for them self!! even in USA the senate is the one who say yes or no at the end! Do u really think that people ruled?
No the politicians r who ruled with people as also there is no nation in the world that doesn't pay taxis which making only 2 possible groups one who paying and one who is collecting and all politicians in the world r connected in order to rule with regular people like u or me!!! So Serbs were chosen to be main guilty part of this war same like Germans in previous wars and now the new part Muslims!!! Who is behind?
The world richest banking and royal families and pro Zionist organization with one goal to rule the world!!!new world government new world order!!!so the were able to manipulate the whole world over 4000 years ago till today and writing the history they like and they need!!! They're collecting the money and civilians like u and me we go to war making possible for them to collect!!!! Trough out media (which they own to) they r able to switch guilty parts from one to another very fast which is obvious!!!ass soon they don't have no interest or new interest occur they switch!!!think about it!!!! thank u.
Again: Croats and Serbs neither are "Zionists" they each want to control.
to Dexy71:
Listen up pal, I'm not an Albanian, and I'm not trying to defend or offend anybody. I'm talking about facts here. Things that I saw in there during the last war (1999) were terrible. About 800,000 civilians(that makes about 40% of the whole population) were forced out of the boundaries in a matter of just two days, April 1, 2, 1999! - How could you possible justify such a thing?
And how in the world you could claim that the Albanians came from Sicily; this is an outstanding ignorance in which I see not even a fantasy to be linked to such a conclusion.
Dude the Albanians = Illyrians, maybe you don't know about them, maybe you know, but your collective national ego certainly never accept such facts. The Illyrians are the oldest people living in Balkans among Greeks and Ancient Macedonians. THIS IS A FACT! - The reason why you don't accept it, that's another problem.
However, you are right at one point. That the Sicilians have common things with the Albanians. Sicily was poorly populated at that time where many wars were happening in Balkans between Turks, Serbs, Greeks etc. During that time, Albanians were forced to flee their houses from the outside forces be it Turks, Serbs or Greeks, to some parts of southern Italy and Sicily. To this day there are Albanian families living in Italy also known as Arberesht. Also later, an Ottoman - Serbian - Greek agreement was made to massively force flee the Albanians and Bosnian to the unpopulated parts of Anadolia (Central Turkey). And don't misinterpret such facts.
No matter how many propaganda you make, be it Pro-Serbian documentaries like this one, you all know yourselves, and you know really good what you did during the centuries. There are still more than 1179 Albanians missing from the last war of 1999 waiting to be discovered from massive graves or God knows from where.
So this is a message to all Serbs: FOR ONCE IN YOUR HISTORICAL LIFETIME > BE FAIR < , at least just this time. Accept what you are and what you did so that one day maybe there is was to leave everything behind and go on to live a peaceful time.
Take care everybody, George
to lovro!!!
When ustash army killed 1.7 million serbs,gypsis and jewish in ww2 they did that in holocoust way(serbs and others didn't and couldn't difend them selfe)wich is oposit of war actions in last war where all 3 sides were ataking each other in many occasions.now there was parts in knin kraina where serbs didn't have young boys to send in yuogoslav army even 20 years after ww2 cause ustash killed even babys!!!this war show u that without help from u.s.a and nato u couldn't over power serbs.
we gave u Independence after ww1 by taking u in Yugoslavia, Croats never had country or Independence trough out history and the Serbs had before turkey,with turkey and Austro-Hungarian period we had some rights and autonomy during that time which Croats never had it, this goes 4 centuries and we spoke the same lang. this is why Croats don't like Serbs. U were slaves and we didn't!!!! Also most of the Croats were Serbs but they switch to Catholicism (''thanks to Vatican'')and now u r one of the biggest enemies of the Serbs. Same with Bosnian (turks were using young Serbs transfered in Islam as elite forces against Serbs-janichars) they had to prove that they r Muslims same like Croats to new boss (pope!!!) that they r ''good Catholics''.
Also i didn't see any bad or disrespectful comment from Serbs on this subject but i see from Muslims and Croats which is one more proof who is who!!!Orthodox way is way of self defense and Islam and Catholic way is way of conquest which trough out history is obvious.
I don't know anybody( never heard!!!) that became Orthodox by force and there r many examples in history when people became Catholic or Muslim by force!!! Also conquest was always made by Catholics or Muslims in many countries in the world killing millions and by Orthodox countries very few!!!! this is the fact which prove the evil sides!!!so please lets not talk about it we Serbs forgive u for all these things!!!thanks
now...it is the public secret in Balkans that Albanians r the biggest smugglers of heroin in the western Europa which is coming from opium field in Afghanistan (controlled by US Army!!!) which brings 300 billion dollar profit a year to some of the richest wall street brokers Zionist Jewish in the world!!!like u see it is all big business and this is one of the reasons why the Serbs lost there land!it is all one big line connected from Afghanistan-Turkey-Bulgaria (Bulgarian government is making a lots of money with making fake cd 2!!!)-Kosovo-Montenegro-Italy (bar-bari smuggling line) or Bosnia (Muslim part)-Croatia-Slovenia all the way to western Europe killing thousands of young people with heroin all over.but who cares about that it is all''good for business''!!!this is why west is on there side in any way!!!it is all business!!this is why they get independence!!!
to geroge and others!!!!albanians came in kosovo in 12 century from sicilia!!!!!u have a lot in comen including vendeta wich is one of the proof that u came from there...serbs never moved from that area they r there forever.serbs r ancesters of the oldest people in this area.the movment of slaves is pure antiserb propaganda made by vatican and establishe at berlin congres 1878 in order to take clame from serbs by making fals historical fact.vatican did trught out history a lot of evil to ortodox nations and behind them r zaonist movment and jewis!!!serbs didn't come here in 7 century,they r here from begining of history.(prof.dr.jovan deretic''forbiden history of serbs''
Vatican did throughout history a lot of evil to orthodox nations and behind them r zaonist moement and jews"
What a degenerate, worthless comment. Israel and "Zionist" not exist till 1948.
You will blame MY JEWISH HERTIAGE for the conflicts between Roman-West and Orthodox-East? For the Ustashe who were with the Nazis you will attack the JEWS? NO, IT'S THEIR FAULT, not JEWISH fault.
WTF!? - Albanians are the oldest people in Balkans, yet in this documentary they try to sell the c@#$ that Kosovo was the Religious cradle of the Serbs. Yet its a historical fact that the Slavs came in Balkans during the 7th century. So how could it be that you become an aggressor in your own land?
Moreover, they show some scrutinized Orthodox Churches in Kosovo claiming that the Albanians are the barbarian vandals. Why didn't they show that over 1000 Mosques were burned down to the ground from 1998-1999 from the Serb forces?
Also, they claim that AMERICAN AIR FORCE bombed civilian targets in Pristina during the NATO BOMBING CAMPAIGN in 1999. I was there during the whole time as an inside reporter yet there was not a bomb that was dropped in any civilian target, let alone Cluster Bombs. The only bombs that were exploding in Pristina were the bombs put by Paramilitary and Police forces in Albanian houses.
So how is this for a fair show trying to defend the evil?
@Lovro I think that you have a very immature attitude, if you want to get into the nitty gritty about the history of Croatia and Serbia you should look to see what the Croats did in WW2, but thats nor here nor there at this day and age, I'm of Serbian descent and I have no problems with Croat friends and none of them share the same immaturity of ignornance that you show here. Its time to move on and stop all this nonsense, because hateful and bitter comments will gain you nothing.
I live in Croatia, and i saw what was going on here, if you want to see who is the bad guy, go to google and type: Vukovar. Vukovar is croatian city on border with serbia, look at the crimes they did to Croats & Bosnians. Slovenia was never in war with anybody, so stop craping around that Serbs are good because they are not, you will find on internet many things that support this what i said, serbs did not exsisted when croatia did, croatia is older than serbia hundreds of years, and war started because they claimed that this is their land. Serbs are not peacefull people, believe me, in serbia, there is no family with at least one gun.
@WTC7
I mean fvvcking serbs. Paramilitary fvvcking Arkan's forces with no means for Human manner whatsoever. That's what I meant!
@ Genc
I assume when you say "Serbs" you mean the Milosevic's police forces?
My God! - I lived the war of Kosovo, I was merely 13 years old when the serbs made me leave my home, killed three of my unarmed uncles, vandalized my home, took what was left of our wealth, yet the serbs are the victims! - SHAME ON YOU!
...P.s. - ... "they chased minority Turks out of Kosovo" - Hilarious!
Wow I did not know that serbs even had the nerv to talk when it comes to this.Not all where bad but 99 percent where bad and when somebody that dose not even know you comes in your house and kills the people you love tell me what you would do.I dont get how much hate you need to have to do that but i guess its not that hard and it dose not take alot of heart to kill somebody if they have nothing to fight back with.And they only killed people women and children but when it came face to face gun to gun they would run and hide ...run and hide.By the way if you had a hard time in beograd can you tell me what the bosnian war uniform looks like or what it is to be hungry and to live under morter fire and look at people killed and the smell of burned flesh dont worry i will wait.And who started the war the serbs why becouse they love to fight and love to kill people if they belive in god they would not do what they did but thats ok if the time comes again now we have something to fight back with and 250,000 reasons to fight for.there is no forget and forgive and they can give me as meny years in the hague as they want what goes around comes around.by the way thank the americans for stopping the war becouse if it was not for them there would be no serbians left in the balkens.
Lack of understanding of the history of this region would lead one not to understand the natural aim for indipendance of these republics. These people are ''south slavic'' with very historically developed sense of their nationality. It is not from 1918 onwards, but much before. The problem of the war is complicated and yes America played a big part of it. Wheras for Kosovo, I'll let the time pass and see what will happen when the majority of Pacistani people in England would need simply more. We all want to recognise a long past back but we don't seem to consider changes that follow, rather we go by saying we need something new - new state, new people, new order, new victims.
great documentary!
kudos to vlatko for providing us with perspective on the recent balkan history in the form of these two documentaries:
"the death of yugoslavia" and "the avoidable war"
also, thanks to wtc, danny, omicron, dexy & tony & others who provided (imo)informative, reasoned input on the situation.
as an american who read the papers and watched the news fitfully at the time, my impressions coming into these docs were appallingly ignorant, simplistic, judgemental -in short- worthless. now i know at least that much, and why.
regarding bias. both docs were biased - the first, anti-serb, the second, pro-serb. but -- they BOTH gave information lacking in the network news and major newspapers.
they provide flawed, but essential insights - given the alternatives (cnn, nyt, allemagne, etc) who followed the simple line: its all the serbs fault. they are the bad guys. leading to: we should bomb them into submission.
actually, the UN comes out looking rather well, but only sort of. they saw things from the clearest perspecive, but rather than publicizing things, the french general tells the british diplomat: "i have to live here" - seesh.
so did the refugees.
as an american, find it disconcerting that:
we did not stand up to the germans and resist the separatist impulse (although, in the context of the soviet break-up, its not hard to understand how the 'concept' might be appealing, in a simple-minded sense).
we did take sides, rather than remain an honest broker for some sort of equitable peace - in the process allowing our state to be used as a pawn by minority factions.
and so: we resisting good-faith efforts to end the conflicts early and late - first, by failing to resist german meddling, later by torpedoing european-led peace settlements
leading to: we played bad cop. then congratulated ourselves on a job well done.
the take-home lesson for good-guys (bad-guys already know):
pr is everything.
Thanks @riley... and everyone else.
because of milesoviç too many ppl have suffered . putting this doc here is an act of disrespectfulness to their pain and scratching wound ..yes there are bad guys and good guys in this world and when bad guys do something terribly bad it is better to put all damn political analysises,rational outlooks ,geopolitical approaches etc..i mean all f.cking expertness tricks aside and to object all those atrocities with all our might..its what makes us human..
tony u stop bitching ..
@Pavicic : No ones doubting its one sided nature but stating it as an offence to all is a bit much..I live in Ireland and being that I had to watch the goings on through British and American media now that was offensive. News and any sort of media was completely one sided during those times and were completely anti-Serbia! I dont state that this documentary is true or accurate in its entirety but at least its the first Doc I've seen that at least gives Serbia a voice...One documentary that gives an unbiased account of what really happened, both the atrocities Serbia carried out to the actions of Franjo Tu?man, which clearly stated that its not a one sided war as many would like to believe. You should watch "death to yugoslavia" and stop bitching.
The international comunity thinks they know everything. Pure Serbian propaganda, they never give up. And they have UK on their side. Western diplomats did nothing. Thank you Germany and Vatican. This documentory is wrong wrong wrong. Can't watch this any more.
And the word SEPARATIST sounds just so wrong. Croatians, Slovenians and Bosnians (muslims and Croatians in Bosnia) fought for their freedom, against Serbian controled Yugoslav national army. I will ask that this documentory is removed because it is an offence to all.
Greetings from Croatia.
@ Reasons Voice,
And I thank you for your understanding response. If you read my comments in the thread The Death of Yugoslavia (under history section here) you will, I hope, see that I don't negate the atrocities committed by the Serbs in this bloody war. The best part of my youth (as of many others) was dedicated to fighting against it (well, demonstrating in the streets against it - we didn't know any other way to do it). But that may be the reason why I am sensitive to a blanket condemnation and demonization of Serbs, which appears to be the rule nowadays, as if they were all monsters eating little children for breakfast. That is simply not true. That is the reason I welcomed this documentary, which is one sided, I absolutely admit, but it also offers a different and broader perspective of the events in those years and those that lead to them historically. The Balkans is, unfortunately, one of the volatile parts of the world and throughout history its different ethnic groups were in a position to hurt others. I wish I could change it...
@WTC Thanks for clarifying it did seem you were giving a pass due to the fact that many did not have anything to do with it. In fact I applaud you for the acknowlegement since not many would say as you do. As with all situations Individual action must only be seen as such. We all to frequently applie this fact to only certain issues like racism. To say all blacks are criminals is the same in my book as saying all South African whites were pro Aparteide or that All germans durring wwII were antisemetic etc etc. Blanket statements are ignorant nomatter to whome they pertain.
The nationalist fingerpointing in this forum tells me all I need to know... The human race are all still primitive as can be... The best and truest) line in this doc was that Western Media have a 'cowboys and indians' mentality - a need to quickly identify the good guys and bad guys... Most western consumers of media - including most of those that have posted here - are simply not capable of critical thought to the extent required to understand complex geopolitical conflicts.
Guys I have to say you can bicker all you want about whos right and wrong but at the end of the day you are only shouting out facts that you know of. There is so much information about what really happened in these wars that will never be brought to light. Also my father is Serbian and for as much of what he tells me I take with a pinch of salt because in regards to a topic of this nature both sides will never agree. I'm completely aware of all the bad things the serbs have done but by no means are any of the other parties innocent either..So by coming on here and and slating the serbs youre only letting down your own intelligence.
@ Adam,
I couldn't agree more - extreme nationalism is a danger and should be prevented. I am not sure about the other issue you mentioned, because a lot of Eastern European states are already integrated into the EU...
WTC7
anyway extrem nationalism should be stopped or at least monitored closely. i don't know your nationality but nations in eastern europe should collaborate in order to have a strong economic area otherwise we will be only the slaves of west
@ Adam
Trust me when I say that I believe it's admirable when a nation deals with it's own war criminals and the fact that Hungary did so is worthy of respect. In Serbia a Special Court for War Crimes was established in 2003, and it's working at full speed at this point. Of course, The Hague is trying the high profile cases (command responsibility) and this special court deals with the rest. The assessment of the competent international bodies was that it is doing a professional job. Many war crime cases have been already processed and quite a number of those perpetrators are already in prison cells. Many more are being processed currently and it will continue so in the future.
As to the question of mass graves in the Balkans, I truly don't know the answer to that. However, I do know that some of those have been left here by the Austrians and the Germans, for example. In central Serbia, there is a town called Kragujevac, where during the WWII the Germans killed 7,000 school children and their teachers (in one day) in retaliation for something the resistance did. The monument erected in memory of this horrible crime bears a name of one German soldier who refused to shoot at those children and was shot himself.
serbs are the oldest nation in the region and all the other nation made there profites because of serbs throw out history and even then they were trying to go against serbs.there r many exemples especialy after first world war when most of other get there indipendency because of serbs...serbs has great heart for the others and as a leading nation in a region has many ''enemies''around...[everybody speaks serbian,lisenning serbian music,watch serbian movies,read serbian books etc.and it was allways hard task for leading nation in the world to have only ;friens''nobody likes russian from exs soviets republic but they all speaks russian.etc.nobody in u.s.a. likes newyorkers because it is no.1 city not just in the u.s.a but in the world ...people always envy the lidders and like somebody said many times''we don't give a damn''u can hate serbs but serbs they don't hate nobody...thank u!!!
WTC7: yeah hungarian army killed innocent serbians during second world war the only difference is that those hungarian solders were punished by hungarian military courts an the story is in hour history books even today to learn from the case. i know croatian ustasa movement and genocide as well. i just don't know why poeople in the balkan think that killing may solve anything ? mass graves can not be found in hungary or in other countries in the area only in the balkan. why ?
@ Reasons Voice,
I hope you are not saying that I implied something like that? Advocated annulling or justifying atrocities committed by Serbs? If that is what you understood, please be sure that that was far from my intention. I pointed out that a large majority of Serbian people did not commit murders. Or do you think that I am not allowed to say that?
well, you have to hand it to the serbs...
they never give up on their propaganda!
@ WTC7
sure, search for "genocide vojvodina hungarian" in youtube...
@WTC 99% of the German people did not commit atrocities in WWII either. Does that somehow devalue those atrocities?
@ Adam,
Here, I will insist on some evidence that supports this down right nonsense :-). Do you think nobody would talk about such genocide, especially if the Serbs committed it? LoL :-)
Very poor attempt to reduce serbian responsibility in this war. I see many fake data in this movie for instance the map of Vojvodina which doesn't show hungarians, gypsies, slovakinas in Vojvodina which was part of hungary for 1000 years where serbians commited genocide against hungarians, gypsies trying to clear the area. I see many poor cut in the movie too.
@ Kut,
Thank you for answering. That was kind of you.
@WTC7
Of course: The answer is yes the doc says the serbs took part in the atrocities. This is the short answer that you want me to give.
The longer answer: I am Turkish and we have the same excuses for Armenian mass killings (or genocide if you wanna call it). The official Turkish thesis states that Armenians started the atrocities first and Turks simply responded it (just like the doc stating for serbs). Because we cannot deny the mass killings we can only reduce it to something else.
But it does not change anything. in 1917-18 the turks had the power to kill armenians, in 1990's the serbs had the power to kill muslim bosnians. it does not mean armenians or muslim bosnians were completely innocent. or it does not mean if armenians or muslim bosnians would do the same thing to turks or serbs if they had the power.
I repeat it again this movie is not different from a Turkish propaganda movie I watched on a turkish tv (by the way this documentary was produced for a serbian bosnian tv channel)for me and that is why I did not like it.
You are free to think I did not like it because my grandfather was bosniac or because I am turkish or I am full of hatred. You don't know me and nothing I say here will change your opinion.
@ Kut,
Perhaps you would be so kind to first answer to my question?
It's the Jews fault.
WHAT?! WHAT?! WHAT?! WHAT?! Zionist Israel exist since 1948 and this centuries old Yugoslavs IS JEWS FAULT?!!!!!!!
hi, i am 22 years old and from central serbia.
at the time all of this happened i was to young to understand anything about it. but i am glad that the war never came to my doorstep.
i feel sorry for the people of all the countries involved because the politicians and the military have betrayed them.
one day, all of the ex-yugoslav countries will be reunited in the european union, oh the irony...
Bulls***! When you listen to the people speaking and at the same time reading the serbo-croatian translation, you will realize that this doc is made and broadcasted just to make people hate each other even more.
Interesting documentary, the conflict is way more complex than the usual BS rethoric would have you believe.
i agree with wtc7...one of the first documentary that is showing serbian side of story and it is clear that all sides exept serbian in this war gain teritory and serbs didn't and they were clirly using big help from the west to get what they wonted...and u who don't agree should reed history litlle better..i also recomend doc.movies ''ring of power'' part 1 and 2 and also new one by alex johns ;'end game''to see the base of problem in the world and balkan...
@WTC7
I am Turkish of a Bosnian descent and had a lot of relatives still live in Bosnia. So let's not try to be smart with each other :)
yeah...
serbs are peacfull ppl...and in the time of peace they like to kill...and in the end they can't be bad guys...the bad guys are somwhere...
This docu is just manipulation...and this is in the natyre of ppl who are gilty (sorry my english not good, but hope u understand)
what happened to the sound.
Nice try, but I did not attack you. Such terminology brings bad vibrations :-), I'm not trying to do that. If you have watched the doc carefully, can you then confirm that it states clearly that Serbs committed atrocities. You don't have to elaborate at length if you don't wish, you can just say yes or no. Anyway, it is there to be heard.
The problem you don't see is that everything said so far about this war was biased against the Serbs. And I tell you this as a tiny member of the 99 % of the Serbs that did not commit any atrocities. As someone who lost her youth marching in the streets to end the war of a criminal 'elite' and their cronies in Serbia. But I also know my history and the many important details from it that you are not aware of. So, please, don't try to be smart with me on this one. This documentary, as one sided as it is (I agree with Danny C & Slaps there) is the first one that I saw that offers a glance at the other side of the coin.
As another former member of the Military who served as a Nato Peacekeeper in Bosnia, i do agree after even watching it twice, its a little one sided. Theres always 2 sides to any story. I saw some pretty bad things done to all sides in that conflict. Most people cannot understand or comprehend how bad it really was.
That being said, my opinion, is and always was, all combatants were wrong. It was indeed an unnecessary waste of human life.
All War is. Until youve seen it firsthand, its hard to put yourself in that space and know whos right and whos wrong. The propaganda of media and fog of war see to that.
@WTC7
I don't know why you would want to attack me by claiming I did not watch it carefully and I claimed something untrue or I am refusing to accept the truth :)
I watched the documentary and it looked to me a very bad Serbian propaganda. It does not have anything to do with my ideologies or my identity. When I am old enough to recognize a bad, biased propaganda movie.
Good luck with promoting the movie :)
@ Kut
I think you miss the point, there is no claim in this doc that Serbs did not commit atrocities, on the contrary, it is VERY clearly stated at one point (you probably didn't watch it carefully). The point here is that, as a consequence of very intricate historical circumstances (of which you are not aware and refuse to accept), things are not as black and white as they are usually presented to an average citizen of the world not acquainted with the history of the region. The point was to introduce the viewer with some relevant pieces of information from a historical perspective, with the background of some of the other major local actors besides Milosevic, about whom everything is known by now I guess, as well as information about the backstage deals and games on the international level that were going on during that period.
Good post, Vlatko. Thanks. This is of some interest to me as I did two tours of duty as a NATO soldier in Bosnia during the 1990s.
The film is a little one-sided but presents an interesting counter-story to the one that most of us have come to accept. The way that the Sebs prosecuted the war in Bosnia obviously did them no favours in PR terms, not least by obscuring the international wrangling that surrounded the break-up of Yugoslavia and the film puts the case that it is far from certain that German recognition of Croatia's independence was the correct course of action. Whilst it's still the case that Britain, France and the US didn't exactly cover themselves in glory, there is at least more to the story than the characterisation of their position as pro-Serb by default. While the documentary is on less solid ground when it tries to present Bosnia as some kind of proto-Islamist state - as anyone who has ever seen how much Bosniak's love their brandy will know - it's still well worth a watch.
Let's just hope that the comment section doesn't fill up with ultra-nationalists and the kind of people who treat real life conflicts as if they are Xbox games. We really don't need to know who you think kicked who's ass...
I think it is an insincere attempt of exoneration of the serbs... when you watch the documentary it looks like serbs were completely innocent and genocide was not real, and croats, slovens, and bosnians started everything (and they were nazis too). I don't buy it...
Thank you, Vlatko, for including this one in your rich collection of documentaries. Here, the causes and the unfolding of events are shown from a bit different perspective than the one usually presented. To those interested, it may provide interesting information on the role of some important international actors (like Germany, for example) in the developments prior and after the commencement of the war.