WikiRebels
5.86
Ratings: 5.86/10 from 7 users.
Exclusive rough-cut of first in-depth documentary on WikiLeaks and the people behind it!
From summer 2010 until now, Swedish Television has been following the secretive media network WikiLeaks and its enigmatic Editor-in-Chief Julian Assange.
Reporters Jesper Huor and Bosse Lindquist have traveled to key countries where WikiLeaks operates, interviewing top members, such as Assange, new Spokesperson Kristinn Hrafnsson, as well as people like Daniel Domscheit-Berg who now is starting his own version - Openleaks.org!
Where is the secretive organization heading? Stronger than ever, or broken by the US? Who is Assange: champion of freedom, spy or rapist? What are his objectives? What are the consequences for the Internet?
Tracing the path of the "new" information wars of the current information age. This doc narrates in many ways the birth of the (wiki)leaks movement which, for better or worse, has already had transformative impact on our world - from Tunisia and the Arab Spring, to Manning, Snowden, a new international focus on surveillance issues, and global dynamics including the personal relationships of world leaders.
Despite Assange being trapped in an Ecuadorian embassy, Snowden in exile in Russia, Manning imprisoned and scores of whistleblowers paying heavy prices... Open Leaks and new organizations form, Anonymous continues to headline... the battles rage on.
"The goal is Justice. The method is transparency."
Good on wilikeaks, the american government are f**ing scum
@ Paul B
Well, you got THAT one right!
“Patriotism is supporting your country all the time,
and your government when it deserves it.”
~ Mark Twain
WikiLeaks is good and bad. It releases a lot of info that should be available to the public, but it also releases information that is of no value to the public while at the same time jeopardizing certain people's lives.
hmmmm Jeopardizing peoples lives? Important people? Unlike innocent civilians?
Have to disagree with the bad part.
What about all the people the U.S. government has killed or will kill because if it's programs. If Wikileaks curbs this activity, I think it is a net gain for peace in the world.
My thoughs about all the U.S. State departments claims make me remember what a wise buddhist monk once told me "Listen to what people say about others, they are usually speaking about themselves."
independent media is a precious gift like this web site and the only thing that will save the world from greed.
to modorator - search youtube for:
'WikiRebels - The Wikileaks Documentary: (55mins full version)'
you will get the feature length in full screen.. recent upload. excellent quality.
Ok done that @Spannerz. Thanks.
The issue is not Julian Assaenge or Wikileaks.
The issue is govermental corruption and an out of control psycopathic military industrial machine - and what we are going to do about it... ???
The issue is humanity evolving beyond what is considered normal or going into the great death and taking countless other species down with us.
The issue is that at last the long awaited hacker uprising has begun! Do you want dangerous edgy freedom or are you still going to try to hide under the burning blanket of normality?
Wake up people, things aren't going to be the way they are for much longer. As the hackers said 30 years ago 'information wants to be free'.
@ramus
if you can't see that julian is an anarchist, i'm not going to waste my time trying to convince you.
we are judged by the company we keep, the heroes we choose.
the cure for what ails us is not an attention-mongering fellow with, it appears, a number of other personal disorders, attested to by his closest associates and recent sex partners, most of whom consider themselves ill-used.
the cure has nothing to do with julian a. the cure is political reform. that is un-sexy, un-instantateous, and probably un-satisfying to a generation ready for instant fixes, 1/2 hour plot resolutions and anti-hero worshippers.
taking a trove of information and piling it out the door, threating to pile out more as a blackmail device to our democratically-elected government, imperfect though it is, is not my idea of the way to go.
i didt elect julian to anything, i didnt give him permission to determine my personal destiny or that of my country.
neither did anyone else. some folks will always want a king, or a hero, to sort our their problems. some won't.
"Stop us? Your going to have to shut down the internet" - Wikileaks. Look it up. They're trying to get our rights taken, and that's all i need to say. The rest you need to figure out on your own.
(Another icon they put up on the pedestal for us, praised on CNN and FOX)
just knowing that the controlling regimes only get away with what they do by turning the people against each other (divide and rule) and reading some of the comments here... well It makes me sad, we are all part of this whatever place we come from... wish I lived on Mars or venus or something coz the human race are stupid !
@riley
So your'e advocating a fascist police state? Who said anything about anarchy? If you think democratic transparency is anarchy I would hate to hear what your idea of a fascist state is. Its a shame there are people that think like you.
actually, if i wanted a ship built in a hurry, i'd hire a good ship-builder, drum up people, gather wood, and give them tasks.
which is much as this julian did. the ship-builders do not recommend their master.
i think he is a megalomaniac, a destructive fool, and will in spite of himself push visibility into governmental operations further into the background by exposing secure communications to the world at large.
if he'd done that to a truly autocratic government, he'd already be dead.
the manning guy will be in prison for many, many a long year.
the government will use the breaches to further their control, further obfuscate their consulations.
anarchism is the fool's road to reform. it is destabilizing, provides a pretext for further loss of freedom, yet yields no structural redress. its main motiviation in the instant: providing a lifestyle for a preening jerk, and the acclamation of other like-minded fools.
Well folks the bad news is that the manning lad who has made wiki famous is [possibly dying and the military is keeping it tight lipped and the damage to his life is sugnifigant all in the name of glory for wiki. Why in the hell doesnt anyone try and squeese the gov for his health which is stated as being very desperate according to a friend who last seen him not to long ago and the world or half of it is calling him a hero whistleblower and the other half wanting him dead.Shame om all of us and we should prey for this kid OH PLEASE DONT TYPE BACK AND PRETEND THAT ANYONE CARES FOR THIS KID.WHAT A DISGRACEFU:L WORLD WE LIVE IN.
We need more organizations to leak material like this! And hats off to the leakers :) they risk their lives to reveal the truth.
damn i wish i was a hacker too...i'd dedicate my life for this glorious act!! long live wikileaks!!
@ rome - and everyone else that wants TRUTH
Thank you all - and may I wish you the compliments of the season
have a cool yule and a relatively untraumatic new yesr.
lets not forget.....please.
All I can say is Wikileaks your doing a great job. Excellent doco. Thx soooo much. Keep on doing what your doing we the people need the TRUTH instead of the BS mainstream media feeds and shoves down all our throats.
This is probably the most important story of freedom vs oppression the western world will face in our generation. Fortunately in countries like america or new zealand where I live we dont have to worry about people directly trying to kill us or anything, and for that I'm grateful, but we're nowhere near a free and open democracy. this shit will change the world, if freedom wins it will start a snowball effect towards true democracy, if whoever is behind secrecy and oppression wins... f--k it, they wont win this one
we are anon
we are legion
we do not forgive
we do not forget
expect us
or something like that
LoL @Vinny; Good deal.
hi reasons voice; im not a journalist or even claim to be smart..lol... im just stating what i know as told to me by friends of halliburton.. yes i live in wyo
@Vinny; Yes partisan blame is always a great answer. Don't worry about the democratic congressional majority who voted for invasion. Or the Left wing political party in the UK that voted for invasion. Or the overwealming majority of UN representatives who both called for and green lighted the invasion. Ohh and lets ignore that Bush made his money by owning a baseball team not oil. I am sure that there is an untapped weath of lefty ace pitchers in Afghanistan that Bush wanted to get his hands on.
This s*it just makes me pissed off even more... my heart goes out the the families of Iraq that lost to the idi*t military forces of an idi*t president... BUSH!!! and cheney.. is an ex family friend.. oil oil oil .. who gives a fk!!! ..
sorry. Hope the CIA don't come kill me now for voicing my opinion.
it just confirms what my son told me... its all a friggin joke.. and everone wounders why i hate the government, and police.. oh well nothing i can do about it
@siddartha guatama I am the Father of a lovely special daughter and would and will do anything to protect her anything. Not long I really dispised the terrorists who kill and murder.But I have been awakend by this vid and now I feel the pain they feel and the anger they feel but murder and mayhem is certainly not justified and the way they carry out mass bombings in the name of allah and I definately feel that using a holy name to justify the means is BLASPHEMY no matter how they see it.Without a doubt these leaks are most certainly not the end but only the beginning of the end and to come to terms and realise that there are much more gruesome vids that we will never see.I really do hope justice will prevail and I will use the term IN THE NAME OF GOD Justice will one day prevail and this is not BLASPHEMY and finally I wish all who participated with the on line chat that we as humans found a way to co-operate with civilised typing and sensible talk. ALL THE BEST FOR THE HOLIDAYS AND MAY THE NEW YEAR bring peace and safety to all in 2011 and maybe this issue will be put to rest,very doubtful but at least I am trying to be optimistic but what can one do as the killing goes on.
Children/Partners/Fathers/Loved ones*
find someone that is dear to them ?
What can we do?
Well - we cannot 'reach' the USA troops - they are in too deep.
I think the only way forward is to reach out to the USA Armys' family! - and persuade THEM to get their children out.
its only a thought - but its a possiblity?
Sid
@WTC7 absolutely right my friend
At 5am this morning former secretary of state Madeline Albreight issued a statement suggesting why the F.B.I were not hunting down the specifics who passed the docs to wiki and stated that the person11 and were blamed for being idiots and failures to the country. So my? is who will the pentagon drill for such leaks? A little twenty something naive soldier.
What a joke and the Democratic society should stop and think about this one with indifference.Some soldier who is very distraught about what he has done and will never see a xmas tree again while the F******big.
I*iots plan there next conspiracy against the people of the world.THE whole point of my story is this.Why in the hell cant we do something about the corrupt who just like to pass the buck and blame some insignificant young man who is tried for treason while all the powers that be plan there next objective and prepare there bomb shelters for the inevitable.
This really stinks and I am utterly disgusted to the point of never voting for anyone again. It makes no difference who we vote for.In the end we all get it.
All Ye Abandon Hope.
The U.S.A and U.K Governments are leading us down a dark path.
Makes me think we have a future as seen in the movie 'Metropia'
@waldo
i agree with everything you have said here on this topic.. but Just wanted to point that actually the allied soldiers during world war II are responsible for the starvation of over 11 million non-combatant German civilians and prisoners..
obviously I take a firm stand against all war and all pretext/justification for it and believe that to be a soldier requires dehumanization and a lack of empathy.. that's what boot camp is for.. follow orders no matter what.. and I believe having such a class in society is like paying and training sociapathic killers to "protect us".. kinda backwards.
other than that.. everything you said on this post is pretty much dead on.
not terribly new information since information about assange is everywhere but good exposure nonetheless. i give it an 8 because i like stories that are expedited.
I think that too much emphasis in this discussion is being put on this single event (the guys shooting people from the chopper). In my opinion, what needs to be discussed is what is to be done about this and other leaks from the wikileaks? What are we, as citizens, going to do about it? Otherwise, this information is useless, irrelevant and not worth discussing, it is only material for abstract academic debate. WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO WITH THIS INFORMATION?
@Reasons Voice
I understand what you are saying but if the response is - well we're going to be evil as well then there is no hope. I watched the full 39 min vid and it made me sad and angry. I give up, let everyone shoot each other then. The pilots were absolutely right to massacre dozens of civilians in the street, give them a medal.
@Waldo; Yea Nietzsche looses me on that argument as well. Your example for the "slave moral" side is spot on. I would add though that the "noble morals" side is just as flawed. In many cases the morality of an upper class individual is based on the rules not applying to them like it does the lower class. Any how. I am In the north East which may explain our differing points of view. The prevailing attitude you mention is not as prevelent up here as in your region. And totally understand keeping your anonymity I made that mistake in the past too, and the troll flood to my E-mail was emmense.
And thank you as well. This is the exact reason that Top docs. has become intellectual crack to me. The commentary in addition to the docs themselves is a great stimulation for a mind that loves to learn.
@ Reasons Voice
I am in the southeastern US, I would be more exact but that has caused me issues in the past. If you are close to the southeastern US let me know and we will get in touch through email I have setup for this very thing. I understand what you mean about feeling that we are absorbing all the negative comments about this conflict. In my area though I hear only negativity about muslims and praise for christians, it's sickening. I admit though that online It is the oposite usually.
It goes back to an arguement that I do not agree with made by Nietzsche about what he called "slave morals". He claimed, and this is the only part of his arguement that I can agree with, that the opressed often develope their self worth from looking outward toward an opressor or injustice. Where as, Nobility developes their morality from looking inward, from a self affirmation. He argues that what he called "slave morality" starts with saying "no" to a percieved authority and never bothers to question ones own beliefs or worth. He also argued that what he calls "Noble morality" does not require this influence from an outside sphere, that it is not reactive but proactive. Of course he argues the opposite for "slave morality", that it was only reactionary and would never act on its own toward a goal other than over throwing its opressor.
Now, while I do agree that this is where the start of many movements against opression may be, I do not agree that it is usually the end as well. Martin Luther King's civil rights movement would be a good example. They did not only question the opression of the black community or the morality of those perpetrating it, they also looked inward and made sure they were decent moral people that acted accordingly. I also disagree with his suggestion that nobility is or was any more moral or correct than the common man. In fact nobility was very vain and convenced of there own superiority. They often misjudged the common man and in the end they paid the price for doing so. I also would like to say that I am in no way suggesting the peoples of Iraq to be slaves or incapable of self affirmation. I am just saying this is where a lot of the hatred toward the US comes from, the unreasonable hatred that is. We are seen as the opressor or a country that acts dictorialy toward others because we are successfull for one thing, and because as much as I hate to admit it we have opressed and acted in a dictorial fashion at times. But the people that live here are not the ones that have done this, we merely reap the rewards that are available to us. The same people that condemn us for this would do the same if these rewards were available to them.
Thanks for the conversation by the way. It is refreshing to talk with someone of your intelligence and humility.
@Waldo; I like your ideas pertainingto government. I would love to see, one day, a free network. Both online and on TV that is dedicated to elevating political candidates. Where the guy from down on the docks who is intuitive but doesn't have a dime can be heard and, if merrited, Elected. What you are working out seems a grass roots of that ideal. I would in no way have the time to organize such in my area but would be glad to join yours if you are local to me at all.
As to the video and my previous comment. I don't intend to excuse American actions by contrast to others. Just to point out that hating one side in a two sided conflict is wrong. This is far from a "Man kicks puppy" issue. This is monster Vs. monster and I just grow tired of absorbing all of the condemnation as only half of the equation.
As I type this blotto I am listening to the radio talk from the blackhawk clearly my eyes see amd hear absolutely 0 persons. We have 20 individuals then 8 then.OH WAIT WHAT DID I hear AND SEE Look at those dead b*stards.
The word b*stard means the dead have no knowledge of who there Fathers are. Ya we have a wounded individual trying to escape. Come on buddy pick up a weapon???
Come on lets shoot.????. These soldiers are not my human brothers but animals with nothing to do but kill,kill,kill.What a serious threat the wounded man is.WAIT LOOK AT THAT WINDSHIELD>HE<HE<HAIf these pilots took akg fire. OH WAIT WE HAVE A CHILD INJURED IN THE ABDOMEN, Had enough yet. Why cant I swear without being monitored and disqualified from posting.
Wait the F word is the term being used to justify murder and they are swearing because they want to fire some more.OH Mr.Everlaid can you do me a favor and go to Iraq and tell those pilots that they deserve to have there hans slapped for the children's parents who are Grieving.SICKENING.We just ran over a body,HA<HAHE>HE.Sure am glad my posts Are making a dent. As I see the military punishing the firing squad.NOT
@ Reasons Voice
While I agree with you that both sides have committed acts of barbarism, lets stop trying to justify one behavior with the other. If we find those beheadings so repulsive it is all the more reason not to do what has been done. Two wrongs in no way make a right and no one can claim innocents simply because the other side did this or that. The soldiers in WW2 saw much worse than beheadings, and still managed to retain their civility and courage. Face it, America deserves the outrage we are recieving.
The question is not whether or not it is justified but what are we going to do about it. You made the comment earlier that our democracy was no longer functioning because of the need of campagn finance reform, I agree. So what are you and I going to do about that? I for one am organizing efforts through the college I attend and the No Labels movement to call for real debates between candidates and educate the local people in my area about what issues are important to the future of this nation. We (the local chapter of the No Labels movement) have secured over five thousand dollars to move forward with this initiative, and the use of the college colosseum for our events. We will be asking the local public not to vote for those that do not adress these issues publicly, to let go of ideology and examine the candidates on their own merits, to not be suade by fancy t.v. commercials and propaganda, to realize that issues pertaining to morality and religion are used to devide this nation and distract us from the important issues at hand. We will also be asking them to push for campagn finance reform through their senators and local represenatives. If we (the U.S.) are to end, I would have us make such an end as to be worthy of rememberance.( a quote from King Theoden, the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Who knew that would ever come up in a political debate?) I welcome you to join us and organize a chapter in your area.
@Ramus; Not disputing that a crime is a crime and if the preponderance of evidence is there convict by all means. But while we are all passing judgement on America for its barbarism let of not forget those lovely beheading films. Not soldiers but reporters, civilian aid workers, etc. Beheaded in front of a camera while their killers praise Allah. I suppose we forget those things right. Barbaric Americans.
Crazy horse unit should be tried for war crimes. Obvious to me there were no weapons, just cameras and camera equipment. Even the guy peeking round the corner its obviously not an RPG its a camera with a telephoto lens. But annihilating civilians trying to act as medics and help wounded combat ineffectives? Shameful.
Sorry America but unless you stop barbaric scenes like this you are going to have the whole world against you.
the prophet of giornalism is what he should be called, shame to all the journalists around the world and they must learn what journalism is all about, people spend time to watch news, to read papers and to listen radios just to know the truth and never get the true stuff, a naked truth ....
SHAME ON THIS DEMOCRACY EXPORTERS, WHO IS WITH ME?
I THINK WE SHOULD SEE THE END OF THIS WIKI STUFF. WHO KNOWS IF THIS IS A CONSPIRACY OF SIMPLY WHAT IT SEEMS, AND MAY BE SOME THING AGAINST OR PRO US. LETS WAIT FOR LONG AND SEEK THE END OF THIS MATTER.
good morning!
@ Achems razor - thats a good point - I never considered that! - Im not familiar with the USA Goverments procedures - but Im pretty certain they are looking for a way out of this - but its going to be hard for them to 'doctor' this video - so the writing is on the wall
@ Peter Le Claire
hello Peter! - Ive read your post - you have a good sensible head on those shoulders my good man! - I bet the government ARE worried - they have every reason to be.
I was wondering what I would do if I recognised the voice in the video to be that of my son (not that I have a son) but if this was the case - I would get him OUT of there - and I would give him the medical care that he needed (psychiatric) - I maintain my belief that these USA troops believe they are doing the right thing - who is going to take responsibilty for this Apolcalpse? I believe that those USA soldiers are damaged mentally - that is very frightening - I mean - where will it all end?
somebody - somewhere has got to do something.....
As l watch and just will not except any reason at all to justify. scene838 Ya we have a perp wounded. AH ROGER. Come on buddy get up and Im praying NO WAIT a minute IM not praying cause all l care about is lying to the hotel elite soldiers. HA HA HA Nice shooting. Look at those b@#$%^&*. ya hoorah.
Sorry l did not mean to be sarcastic towards the CRAZY HORSE crew for fear of being murdered.HOW can any top brass in the mighty military suggest that these Iraqis civilians are insurgents? This is murder and my outrage is beyond me.
Why does the U.N not take this serious. When the citizens of the nations decide to become civily unrested.It will be way to late to stem civil unrest and I don't think the U>S will have nearly enough power to stop 10 or20 million marching the streets chanting change we want it now.
I sit here listening to COAST TO COAST and this very topic that WIKI LIKS has exposed is asking a very nervous audience. What do you think the Government should do and the one issue is why cant the Internet be shut down and the guest is stating that they can but the reality is.
The government is worrying and very nervous about the Internet. Finally I will shut-up but before i do. I just wonder how the parents of the helicopter crews arefeeling. Is it shame or is the majority of military mothers and fathers condoning such acts of murder praying that there son does not go to trial for murder. What a revolting thought I once had in defending our soldiers only to feel embarrassed as a supposedly civilized nation and we have become TERRORISTS.
Saw the extra footage, there was not one iota of mention about the weapons that they claim they saw after they killed the people, did not the ground forces pick them up and portray them as such? no mention.
The weapons would of been laying amongst the dead bodies. So where are the weapons?
@ Angeo
Thx for the link. The idea that wiki-leaks may be a false flag operation, intended to justify a crack down on the freedoms that are inherent in the Internet, is intriguing. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
@WTC7
It's interesting that American intelligence doesn't do more to tarnish the good name of Julian Assange. Though the above scenario would explain that. Even the rape charge could have been a part of this kind of tactic. After all, they had to say something or risk substantiating the claim that wiki-leaks is a CIA operation. Saying nothing at all would have just given the claim credibility. Saying too much would just add to the allegation that it's a smear campaign.
@ Peter Leclair
While this scenario doesn't imply some sort of Zionist conspiracy. It could explain why Israel may have had advance knowledge of the leaks and why there seems to be nothing critical of Israel contained in the leaks. Everyone knows that America will bend over backwards to protect and prop up their Jewish friends. Even turning a blind eye to their war crimes and illegal settlement activities.
Hey look at me. I'm a real conspiracy theorist now! lol
Oh, and, I think enough has been said regarding the helicopter footage. Any rational human being knows that was an unprovoked and brutal attack by a few trigger happy grunts. Lets face the facts. Even if they were combatants with an RPG, which they couldn't have know with any degree of certainty, the pilot could have simply flown higher, so they were out of range, and waited for ground support to provide better intel. Not looking for a debate here. Just pointing out what I think should have been obvious to anyone who saw the footage.
Great Doc. and thank you very much.
@ Vlatko Thank you very much Vlatko (for the extra post.
@ RV - tut tut! dont be silly! no need to apologise!
we all get 'de-sensitised' when saturated with bad experiences, I mean - look at Surgeons....Solicitors/Lawyers etc. They do & say things that would emotionally wreck me! - they have to be dispassionate, its their job.
I think that these soldeirs are completely de-sensitised to the effects of their actions, to them (perhaps) its not real anymore - thats scarey ....because (unlike surgeons & solicitors/Lawyers etc) the end result is devastating for everyone
@Sid; Sorry for my comment before, The thought of me whacking a cow with a golf club might be offensive to you. But dang it they are so tastey. Any way, the most popular game of the year is Black Ops. I have played online some of the older of the series and you can talk with your "team" in the cooperative real time mode. It can be disturbing to hear a 12 year old kid say things like "HAHA I gutted that dude like a fish". I like gaming some times and don't promote censorship but parents letting kids play that stuff has to be corralative to these soldiers and their attitude.
I think everyone agrees that the secrets of corruption and wrongdoings are better exposed than hidden. The question which remains is whether Wikileaks is an appropriate and responsible party to govern such exposure, or whether they can be subjected to manipulation by offenders and/or cause greater harm by careless operations.
To all fans, please spend a while considering a possible scenario in which a supposedly "evil" politician is exposed and his public image utterly destroyed, only to be superceded by a much more secretive and demagogic competitor with even more clandestine intentions who has somehow managed to go under the radar. Politics is seldom a black-and-white game, and some tough issues often really involve chosing a lesser evil. The question is whether some young anarchist bystanders really have the skill and complete information required to make the accurate judgements required. We've already seen that they have a capability of exerting much influence on swaying public opinion. I'm even willing to believe they have pure intentions. However, to claim that the results of mass exposure can only improve the world, is naive to say the least.
@siddartha guattama I was just on my way out the door and decided to check my mail as i hear more dings .Almost comical isnt it. To bad some people would take this chat way to far sure am glad there are civilized people out there cause every day I hear or see nothing but tragedy.When Nostrodamus predicted the end is it possible that the end is fast approaching as many of his predictions seem to be right on schedule and one thing is certain the wiki will remain for some time and the consequences could be very dyer indeed. will check in later and it sure is nice to type with a European responding with common sense cause many of us in North America are off the wall with this subject when i hear phrases like Give the death penalty to the soldier who exposed the files only to be suffering right now for being human.
@Reasons Voice
thanks for your comment
let me check?...nope i didn't say quit your job and sell everything and live in a cave. and my point about the cow was that we do tend to wast a lot. it seems that's what us Americans are use to doing.
but i am wondering what everyone is doing to save them self. even if its just composting or growing their own tomatoes or at the bear minimum, a passing thought for the kids that shot in the van in Iraq just because there father was driving to fast for the liking of some brunt out home sick guy with a gun?
I think Vlatko has already put it here, underneath the Wikileaks documentary above...
Yes you're right @WTC7. The video is there.
@All you others; Great comments. I may not agree 100% with all of you but that is irrelevant. What I see here is a great example of the free exchange of perspective and thought that has become all too rare in the world. All of you are an inspiration.
@A-Fly-On-The-Wall; Yes I would. If the only way to get a teak was to slap a cow upside the head with a 9iron I would be yellinf "FORE" and chowing down. Of course killing a cow per steak seems wastefull as cows weigh like 600 LB and that could potentially be more than one meal.
We should all wake up and walk away from our jobs and material life because it is our relationships to others that matter? Nice sentiment but last I checked most peoples wives and kids and husbands etc. really like it when they have a home and food and an education and such. Those cost mony which alas we have to earn by *gasp* working.
@ Peter Leclair,
There is really no need for apology and I absolutely understand that you are not attempting to smear anyone, all of us here are simply discussing the issues raised in the doc and our own views about them. I also think the debate so far was very civilized :). I thank you for your quick response.
Im glad I dont live in a state that would be knocking at my door for displaying my opinion on this issue.My mail box has dinged 47 times since I posted my first note.Oh well what else is there to do when you are retired.I have only watched this one time and look at what I got myself into I have yet to watch the 39 minute scenario.Can anyone post the web So I can watch the entire scenes
@ WTC7
yes, I get it, very good point......
in fact there has been (in my humble opinion) some absolutely incredibly educated comments posted here - I try and ignore the others! - but they still worry me terribly....I worry about all violence in the world today, but weapons in the wrong hands, THAT scares me most of all.
I have never played video/computer war games - and I would never condone anyone playing them - I think they have a LOT to answer for!
@wtc7 accept my apologies as I state in my opinions that I do not wish nor try to smear anyone for there right to give ledgers on issues that are very sensitive and no doubt the allegations of sexual misconduct most certainly is to try and smear the integrity of this mans life cause thats all the military can try to do to make people think he is some crazed sex maniac knowing full well they are in deep serious trouble with the public and sex has always been the way to bring shame to someone who is trying to tell the world that there military is not what its all cracked up to be.I have no doubt of his innocence but this manouver is a tactic to try and sway the people that if he is such a person of that nature then why not try and fool the public with other issues to try and postpone the inevitable.Maybe I was off topic about 9.11 but what if this turns out to be true can you imagine the uproar that this would cause.Hitlers stormtroopers were brainwashed and look what happened.anyways the whole issue of murder in the name of democracy is downright scary.Sorry if I may have offended anyone but this doc seems to be an addiction and most certainly there are millions who may feel the same way.
Thank you again, @ siddartha gautama :). You are very close to what I wanted to say but not exactly to the point. I will explain again what was the line of my thinking.
@ Peter Leclair,
I was trying to point out that I find it strange that the US "grinding state machine" has not used any "gray spots" in his biography to undermine his integrity, which is the usual "procedure" that most governments (but not only governments) apply with those whom they see as potential or real threat to them and their policies.
Why are they not doing it, was my question, not whether Assange is smart or not.
@ Peter leClaire
Peter, I think that WTC7 was trying to bring everyones attention to the integrity of Assange - nothing more. Thats why he mentioned his (Assanges) wikipedia entry - thats how I understood WTC7 comments. WTC7 was highlighting Assanges apparent intergrity becauee (like he said) nobody seems to be able to 'dig any dirt' on him! - the rape charges are 'trumped up' - thats a no-brainer! - because thats all they can pin on him. which can only mean hes pretty much 'up-front'
I dont think Assange is compromising his integrity for the sake of passing popularity - ! not at all!
WTC7 has a very valid point.
Yep its me again just to say the documentary is bye far a very fascinating way of getting info on the entire life that we as humans take for granted and this is my last post.Maybe....lol
@GodEmperorShaw.This is a very serious point of view that may come to light.It seems I am becoming more and more inquisitive as to what people are saying and is addicting to this point of no return and once again my opinion is in no way an attempt to alienate or bash any other point of view.I remember when the day of the Wtt9.11 some rumors were being thrown out to the public that 5000 jewish civilians were supposedly informed not to show up on that fatefull day!!! If this is true or even if it is not true,such a rumor that would become a reality would with no doubt enrage the world.I definately would believe that such an act would most certainly spell serious peril to the state of Israel and the entire families of the victims would no longer feel any pity for Israel but hatred beyond all means will definately play a truth as to what antisimetics were saying for the past 2000 years.The fact that the mighty dollar is and always has been the reason for mass murder. I hope this does not come to light for fear of just a tiny bit of truth would set the world amok and the real possibility this would cause terrorism and wars beyond belief.Many believe 9"11 was a plot to hide untold amounts of trillions of dollars to disappearand that 17% of the worlds wealth was stolen. I have watched many docs on this very sensitive issue and all the lives that were taken were taken out of greed.Did anybody watch DUST TO DUST and the health of the people that helped in the cleanup to this day many are dying from respiratory illness while there lives are plagued with compensation delays and some are dying horribly nearly ten years after and some are living in squalor and heartbreak while the bankers are awarded bailouts for corruption and destroying millions of lives for the greed of wallstreet. Like I have stated with my own typing I am not judging nor accusing but to much in your face corruption and scandel seems to be the talk of the entire world.
@ Peter Leclair
No, I wasn't talking about you. I agreed with alot of what you had to say. I was referring to the guy that keeps calling the people that got shot from that heli terrorist. The fact that he refuses to accept what happened even after reporters have flown to Iraq and acertained the identity of the victims, interveiwed them, showed them the footage disgusts me. It reminds me not to get to excited that change might occur, we still have a huge population of peoples here that refuse to admit torture is wrong, blatant disregard for others rights is wrong, that we are terrorists by our own definition. That said the way I engaged the situation is not productive, I was just so upset by what I had just seen that I couldn't stand to hear someone defend it. But you dont change minds by insulting people. I am sorry Peter,(the Peter I insulted last night) but I really wish you would stop for a moment and think of how you would feel. Think about it, you are driving your kids to school and see a man on the side of the road hurt. You stop to help and someone murders you in cold blood right in front of your childrens eyes. Being in war is no excuse for such behavior. If soldiers can not be courageous enough to make good decisions and not just fire for the fun of it or out of fear, what use are they?
@ siddartha guatama
Thank you for your kind words. More and more I see the value of your life style. I have been looking for answers for a long time, thanks for all your advise and kindness. I wish you hapiness and contentment.
@Waldo I hope your statements are not intended for Peter Leclair. I am not bashing any Americans nor would l ever do such a distasteful thing.I am a CANADIAN and my country is focused on helping the U>S>A for the same reason. I really believe that the war on terror is a battle that unfortunately will never end. The U.S is a great country and I will never disrespect that fact.But the reality speaks for itself and a few bad apples will someday be picked clean like a bad dream I am certain many Americans are quite disturbed with what they are seeing and they have been duped far to long. I will say this. The former administration is to blame for putting troops in the danger zone and when one V.P.states on national T.V. that intelligence will be hiding in the shadows and the PATRIOT act is passed. This is a very serious eyeopener and they got away with it while sitting back in there chairs watching the current Administration trying to sten the flow of DAMAGE.
@WTC You obviously are missing the point of the entire doc. This is not a doc on how smart Assange is. It is a doc on reality of a world power being brought down to its knees not the grade score from a university. To question ones integrity and the education is one thing. But the fact is that a lone soldier has put his life in peril while Mr Assange is being regarded as a hero.Don;t get me wrong. Im not trying to slander WTC7. Im only trying to state that the issue here is death and treason not a bachelors degree on mathematics.You are missing the whole point of this documentary.
I have not said to much till now. Have read all the blogs.
What wiki-L. has done is to wake up a lot of people to the goings on, and of all the atrocities behind closed doors.
Wiki=L. has the powers that be running scared, now they are clamoring to put a lid on all the transparency that is developing. One blog has said, "what have we become?" We have become nothing, except letting out the monsters in our minds that most people keep caged up in the dark recesses.
We are still in the process of evolving from the animals of which we are the Animala species. And have a long way to go yet, searching constantly to try and fill the hole we humans are born with.
Their probably will be new laws coming into effect to try and gain back some of the control that is perceptibly slipping away because of Wiki-L.
They will try to monitor and subjugate the internet, when that happens all will be lost. The first priority among others should be to keep the internet open and not tampered with to give people some semblance of freedom and their voice.
@ Waldo
WELL SAID Waldo ....you are taking the words right out of my mouth -
Charles - I'm disappointed in your apparent disregard for human life - sorry Charles - but you need to think about what you just said. Thanks Waldo and all the others who see this abhoration for what it is. disgusting, its not just the footage, its the comments of the air crew "good shootin"..."Thank you"....."look at those dead b@#$%^&*" "you shoot, I'll talk" .....i watched the 39 minute version - the attitude of the Americans disgusts me.
come on people - spare 39 minutes for the full unedited version
Go wiki-leaks and any site that comes after them!!!!!!!!
the internet is the last real free zone.!!!!!!!!!
EVER ONE needs to stop watching American idle and washing there own brains in McDonald's commercials.
And take pride in being a human with real god given rights that you have been born with.
If you don’t the plain truth is you will be led to slotter for your blind ignorance. And you will deserve what you get. No one needs a priest or President to show them this fact. Stop waiting for some one else to save you. For Jesus or JFK to come back from the dead. SAVE YOUR SELF right now. Wake up and do something real with your life.
Why is it that we let these few people get crucified for what we believe. And once there gone we hide in a corner like scared rats. When we should be infused with new energy to stop those with the so called “power” to say who lives and who dies
Did wiki-leaks tell us anything we didn’t already know?
Unless you've been born under a rock you have to know these things.
But what do you do about it?..wake up in the morning and drink your coffee, get in your car,drive to the gas station and put gas in the tank and head to work to pay your taxes and get the little green papers that go to paying your dept.
so the your government can do the things you see in wiki-leaks. But you don’t think about that. Like going to the store and buying ground beef. How many of you would eat steak if you had to kill the cow your self. Not once but every time you wanted the steak.
So whats important to you? Your car? Or job? Or home? Your dept? Then keep doing what you've been doing and let the ones in “power” do there job. Or wake up get the point that you can't take any of that shit with you once your gone. And all you'll leave for you family is the dept you have.
These things you think are “real life” is just a distraction to make you believe for a little while that your happy and satisfied.
When the truth is you are searching just like the rest of us. Why are YOU?
I cant tell you that. But I can tell you that the one most important thing in this life is our relationships with others. It will only be there that you will find the real truth.
I'll shut up now ;)
go wikileaks!!
@ Charles
"The children survive infact. They were incidental."
I am just getting to emotional to tell you what i really think of statements like that, but I will get some sleep and in the morning I will explain to you just how pathetic that really is. I have cried so much I am getting a head ache, I have to lay down right now. How did we come to this, humans I mean not just Americans?
All the music is dead and the flowers have been trampled in the rush, the wirl wind is in the thorn bush. Not to long ago we danced black magic atop the great hill; Making myths and gods to do our will. And yet the music died, somewere between the sacrificial lite were satan burns with desire, and the old Sycamore were children play hide and go seek. I can not recall the feel of grass or the touch of an easy wind, the fist winters snow upon my cheek, it is lost we've lost it all friends,And so i sleep, and hope upon hope that tommorrow my eye will see, my feet will feel. Yes, tommorrow maybe I will find something real, something more than:
History repeates itself coiling down into the future.When at one second to twelve the hands touch and furrow deeper. History repeats itself, i didnt learn I wouldn't listen, I couldn't see the books were on the shelf for my concern, I never missed them.
This is a GREAT documentary. I think that Wikileaks represents a catalyst for change. Since I heard that Amazon booted Wikileaks off their servers I've been following the story closely. Visa/Mastercard and Paypal all dropped Wikileaks too, within a matter of a week. Hilary Clinton spent hours on the phone contacting the leaders of other countries apologizing for the insulting diplomatic info in the leaks. She also encouraged other countries to block the leaks and to avoid supporting Assange in any way. Now the U.S. gov't is looking to pass a law to persecute Assange--no law exists to persecute him because what he did was legal!!! The U.S. gov't is doing everything in their power to silence Assange and Wikileaks. HA, hundreds of domains across the internet have now picked up Wikileaks and is supporting their information.
I'm incredibly optimistic with what I think will be a change in not only the renewed transparency we'll see in big corporations and gov't, but a greater change in the infrastructures of our society. A gov;t exists for its citizens and is therefore accountable to its citizens.
The information that Wikileaks has released cannot be ignored, it's about time that ordinary citizens can really see whats going on behind closed doors, and start really holding people and our institutions responsible. The release of this information is worth any harmful consequence that could occur thereafter. I cannot imagine a greater consequence, than the harm that has been inflicted on the ordinary citizens of these war ridden places.
We can debate all day about the content of the videos, whether or not the pilots attitudes and actions were justified. This is simply a micro issue. As more of this information gets released we will observe instances such as what occurred in that helicopter. As this information continues to get released we will be forced to look at the damage on a much larger scale. And once we're able to comprehend the entirety of what has been going on---we might come together and demand a change.
If shit has to go from bad to worse first for things to get better, I'm in for the ride. I'm really excited to see how the gov't and the world is going to respond as more of this info gets leaked. I'm hopeful.
I have no real comment but I don't mean to keep it secret, either.
@waldo
yea.. i also do get tired of the america bashing.. the truth is that all governments are just as corrupt, although America is doing the most at this time. good point about the world wars.. although soldiers were drafted (same as Vietnam) and I disagree with all wars.. at least you could somewhat buy into what was goin' on at the time with hitler, Mussolini, Stalin and all... to believe what governments spit out today with cable TV and the internet is just remedial...
@princeton
well said
@peter was there any mention of weapons on any reports? When this video was leaked was there any mention of guns...AK's? Please provide them if you would as I am sure the US military would like to stand behind that.
So it Iraq were like France with everyone carrying around Baggette's....long bread rolls...would people be getting blown away from 2 miles up in a helicopter? For suspicion of holding a gun. If you watched the whole video you will see that what crazyhorse was concerned with was shoulder mounted rockets. They were way out of range for any small arms fire.
and as for the comments about war not being a gentlemanly sport I agree but you don't have to dehumanize it to the point of making comments like you are swatting a fly. It was a killing for killings sake and then it was looked upon with pleasure and that pleasure was that somehow these boys in crazyhorse figured they had actually saved some US soldiers from their peril. That is the mentality.
No one wins in war it is the next generations that finally move beyond it. Well no one wins but if you can come from 8000 miles away and and then go back to your nice safe homeland well I guess you win.
Somewhere in the U.S.A. a young naive soldier has put his entire life on hold and probably is blessed with many who want him dead for treason. Meanwhile Mr.Assange is held up in a mansion with all expenses paid and gaining notoriety and praise for the damage he has caused amongst top military officials around the world. We all watched in horror and disbelief as the helicopter is firing at unarmed civilians and trying to justify the crime buy passing the buck on Mr.Assange stating he has blood on his hands for revealing top secret info.
Is it me or what l witnessed in the video is blood on the hands who ordered the slaughter. If the material is so sensitive how can one naive soldier gain access to top secret info. The one serious issue that no one should ignore is the reckless behavior and the real possibility that many top brass are caught in the act. What about the jokes or comments made towards leaders of other nations that are embarrassing?
Is it possible that more sensitive material will cause embarrassment to the u.s and very sensitive comments that may be taken out of text by some paranoid leader of a foreign country spill the way to other conflicts or at the very real possibility that some president from another nation may threaten the u.s. with military action. We all see the North Korean nut-bar leader passing the rigns to his son who very possibly may take a joke personally and cause ww3.
The fact is the u.s. is becoming more and more aggressive with military power and buy the media exposing the ugly side of war to which the U.S is playing Russian Roulette with other nations and blaming there guilt on one source that is determined to open up a can of worms.GOD HELP US ALL.
I am not a patriotic guy on my best days, but the stuff shown in this doc makes me truly ashamed to be an American at all. I have cried for the last hour and feel sick to my stomach. I felt the same when I saw the doc on the torture taking place at Guantanamo. People like Peter are the reason this type of stuff never gets any real attention and will never stop, they refuse to see the truth that is right under their own nose in broad daylight. No, actually they do see it. They simply choose to igmore and spin it to make themselves feel better about their own country. I dont care if one or two guys had guns (which I still don't see after watching over and over), they were no immediate threat to anyone and many others were specifically targeted that clearly were empty handed. I will admit that I get tired of all the America bashing online these days, but in this case we deserve it- well, at least the military and government deserve it. Yes war is horrible and bad things happen, but men that fought in WW2 never begged to shoot targets they were in no way threatened by themselves. They served with courage and honor, which often means NOT shooting at all, and deserve to be commended. This new breed of soldier that enjoys the bravery of being out of range makes me sick. The so called war on terror makes me sick. People like Peter and his far right pals make me sick. The fact that America is no longer America makes me sick. Ideology and political pagentry.... Whew, all right I am done- thats feels much better.
Charles you have a point there. Which also highlight a problem the American haven't learn much from Vietnam. The Vietcong used insurgency tactics 'all except suicide bombing and IDE' probably didn't have the knowledge or technology back then otherwise I'm sure they will use it, i know because i'm a vietnamese. You can't beat the enemy that is hidden with tanks, Apaches, mass armies and fighter-jets, the insurgent have a chain of command but everyone of them is trained to think for themselves in unforeseen situation and act accordingly, this is how they will never be defeated just like the vietcong, no matter how many tons of bombs the American dropped there always more.U.S soldiers follow a combat system that is not flexible enough to fight this type of warfare, they can't and not allow to disobey pointless orders or trained the fight smarter. The western military machine is only good in open battlefield, where u can identify who is who. Many military experts and retired Generals 'US and other countries' highlighted this problem. But nothing is change all these years...'If ignorant both of your enemy and yourself, you are certain to be in peril.
Sun Tzu'
So, my take...is that publishing crimes, graft, and corruption...ect. could cause unrepairable damage to the governments and organizations that peddle this fodder.
Nice work wiki....nice.
@peter
you sir are a scary man..
American "freedom" fighters..lol. i see you ate the George bush cookie.. i guess someone had to fall for it.. your media at work.. lol.
American soldiers are at best mercenaries, but in truth nothing but hit-men for a corrupt & murderous faction. there is no freedom involved..
where have you been all this time? are you fre4kin serious?
"terrorist lovers" really?. by definition America is the largest and harbors the most terrorists on the face of the planet. the soldiers you applaud are the real terrorists.. omg i can't believe i even responded to a comment filled with so much ign0rance.. eww
@ ramana
I agree & well said..
@Charles B
I know, I state that in my last post. With regards to killing civilians just in case they are enemy combatants..... Really? Sorry but if your'e not sure whether to shoot someone because your'e not sure if they are a civilian - DON'T SHOOT! These guys were so eager to pull the trigger they were almost wetting themselves "Cmon let me shoot".
Ramus: You are mistaken. The helecopter pilots DIDN'T know there were children in the van until afterward when they sent ground troups to investigate. The children "survived" according to the tape, in fact. I assume unharmed. They were incidental. When the terrorists look act, and pretend to be civilians, then true civilians get killed too.
Here in Korea, where I am, I talked with my friend whoes father was born in North Korea. He said that because the North Koreans wore civilian clothes and acted like civilians and mixed with them that the innocent ones fell under suspecian too, and many were killed out of fear by the South Koreans. His dad gave clothes to a North Korean soldior, and almost died for it when that particular soldier was caught and they asked, "Where did you get these clothes?"
So, if the combatants DIDN'T use children and women and dress like innocent civilians and use VANS, etc. to move weapons, then this incident wouldn't have happened.
Assange is an i@#$% and needs to be charged with treason.
@Reasons Voice
Ok after watching it again they knew there were children in the van AFTER shooting. But their response was "Well they shouldn't bring children to a battle". True maybe but if they didn't know who was in the van what justification would you have to fill it full of lead.
Indiscriminate shooting is where civilians, women and children, die. Like the second video where the helicopter crew are not bothered that there is a civilian walking past the target, they shoot anyway and kill the civilian. Winning the hearts and minds? What a joke.
You are right, its just a game to them and a profit to the evil that sent them there. Win win.
@Ramus; I have a ton of respect for most of those who post here as they themselves can tell you. I am referring to perspective here. The soldiers in the air see an automatic rifle in the hands of a native and they see enemy combatant. We are spectators and receive this image after the fact and with full disclosure of facts. You say they saw the children in the van. I can't make such an assumption from this video clip. If so they should be tried and convicted of war crimes. You take me wrong in a way. I am not pro war I am an isolationist. But in circumstances that we are not in it is easy to see flaws after the fact. Judge me all you will I stand by that opinion. As to the commentary of the pilot in this clip yes it is grotesque. But I ask any of you to buy an X-box and log in and play any of the war games and this is just what you hear. These are young men raised on games of war and instilled in them is callousness. Not an excuse just a reason thus the name thanks.
@ Peter75 What kind of person would suggest that two reporters from REUTERS would help terrorists as you have mentioned. I only saw this shooting once and not only is it criminal but suggest that volunteers from the media would go as far as helping the terrorists in the crusade of JIHAD. The facts speek and the pictures authenticate the scene It is murder and You sir are neglecting your duties as a human by trying to blame two men who are carrying guns that they are terrorists. Did you ever stop and think before your blog that the men carrying the weapons are security for the media and most certain terrorist hide there faces. I did not see anyone trying to hide there identity and what is disturbing is the way they were murdered from a far away distance as we can all here the hoorahs from the military.ITS no wonder how these men who serve get nicknames like MADDOG and can back up there names by doing what they did with impunity.
as far as I'm concerned those two pigs in the chair force deserve Guantanamo hospitality, or at the very least should be put in war zone full of insurgents armed with only a camera
@Reason Voice
"Are soldiers in a war supposed to be giggling and tossing stuffed bunnies and candy out the window?"
Have a little respect for the intelligence of people posting here.
Where normal people see ordinary equipment you see weapons. Where normal people see people struggling to survive you see terrorists. This is THEIR country remember not yours.
Where people see the slaughter of innocents you see the killing of enemy combatants.
I see you ignore the fact that the soldiers KNEW there were children in the van but they still shot the cr@p out of it. I find it ironic your name is Reason Voice. Please explain the reasoning behind shooting a 30mm cannon at children?
Sometimes truth is not an easy thing to deal with. Shock, fear, disbelief, and anger must be experienced before acceptance and action can occur.
The people of the world can handle the release of information that has been hidden from them. It may not appear so initially, but in time knowing the truth far outweighs the safety of ignorance.
Soldiers will have to endure the truth of their actions. That is the sad part.
@ siddartha gautama,
Thank you :)
@ Peter Leclair
your absolutely right peter - shocking isnt it? I posted a link (above) where you can the the (helecopters) full 39 minutes of 'engagement' its harrowing.
humans are far worse then animals in this scenario
@ WTC7
thank you for your post - i really understood what you are saying - and yes, with the limited tools that we (the public) have - your ideas and thought are a positive outlook in the midst of all this chaos.
@Imposter - I too amd so grateful for the internet info you provided - thank you!
@ achems - I save the search tool you provided also!
yep - im all the better for the lessons learned here today! thank you all
@ grey area....you really made me laugh! though its a sad situation innit? but love your humour - thanks!
love sid x
Transparent,transport,trust,hmmm,lets take the incident from the pilots point of view,ROGER go ahead fire without worrying about your family on the other side of the world.While the shock is still in my mind from what I have just watched. Is it me? or are these men about to get away with murder while the secrecy of the Pentagon is used to justify what was done to over one hundred thousand innocence. I will state that the real war is between the media and the news they refuse to disclose to the public for fear of backlash or putting lives at risk from such leaks.If the western world powers would just be truthful and stop the ongoing slaughter from happening then we as a world supposedly civilized should not downplay the facts that speak for themselves and do the right thing to prevent such killings then the one person should not be blamed for doing the right thing that the world has the right to know.
... sorry, in the second paragraph - 'unnecessary DESTRUCTION'
I wouldn't go that far as to call Iraq as such a terrorist environment. But I am also sure that there are more what some would call 'terrorists' in Iraq now than there was in 2003. Anybody noticed the scene where the soldiers beat those kids? Anybody appalled by the sick comments of the guy who shoots the video? Well, if those kids had done something, if they were suspected of doing something, they should have been taken for proper interrogation. If they were terrorist suspects, such conduct of the soldiers will not help them see the light and start loving their 'liberators'. If they were not 'terrorists' before - you can bet that they were just made to join their ranks after this event (if they survived of course).
As terrible as war is, it still has rules. Such rules exist for a reason. They were made to prevent unnecessary loss of life and unnecessary distraction.
When it comes to disclosure of information, of course the US should not disclose the request for asylum of the North Korean national, unless, in an unlikely event, he/her specifically allow for such disclosure - nominally or non-nominally. But it is also certain that events such as these videos from Iraq need to be made known to people. They provide a more realistic picture of what is going on, but they also allow for the general public to put pressure on the concerned authorities to investigate and appropriately sanction such behavior. Consequently, disclosure of such events makes it more probable that they will not happen too often.
so sik of the terrorist excuse to kill innocents. 'they were enemy combatants' wow what a load of $hit
you dont like america? your a terrorist! you are against the iraq war? your a terrorist! you think american soldiers are raping and murdering? your a terrorist! you dont like scumbag american media? your a terrorist! i cant have my daily quadruple whopper with cheese because warzone children are starving? your a terrorist! i cant wipe my a$$ with 24k gold tipped toilet paper?? your a terrorist!!!!!!!
I am even more impressed with the caliber of comments than the documentary - Thank you @The ImPoster & Achems Razor for your tech tips!
I have no illusion that I have much privacy on the web, but it's good to have tools to protect yourself from some predators...which brings us back to the point...
Transparency feels good until it's your privacy that is being exposed... each of us maintains the self-imposed illusion that we have integrity, but how long could we stand up to harsh scrutiny?
I think if we really all examined this speculation closely, and addressed/corrected those issues deliberately the world would be a much different place - better, i'd like to believe
For those commenting on the cold-heartedness of the soldiers in the helicopter; Are soldiers in a war supposed to be giggling and tossing stuffed bunnies and candy out the window? They are in combat. Any man in a combat situation must turn off their cuddly side and be like iron or they would go entirely mad in the first week. I am not commenting as to the validity of all of the engagements however expecting a war to be conducted by warm and fuzzy humanitarians is just plain silly. I too have seen that clip time and again and I too saw the guns in the insurgents hands. The reporters and other civilian casualties are very regrettable and the loss for their families tragic. But when a journalist sets their ideals to infiltrate and interview enemy combatants they risk not only friendly fire but being killed by those the seek to interview. Do any of these back seat drivers realize where a battle zone like this would put the mind of the soldiers in it. Twelve year old boys run the streets with AKs women hide explosives under their robes. In a terrorist environment no one can be trusted. It is the methods of the enemy that dictates the response of the soldier. Some people here fail to realize that.
@ Peter
Ive had to give this a lot of thought because,(as I mentioned earlier) I fear I may have made a mistake in what I saw.
But, having read what everyone else has said (folowing your claims) the fact remains that what the Helecopter did was BARBARIC - nobody attacked the helecopter - nobody provoked the helecopter,- the helecopter went on the attack - and splattered over a dozen people - children included for no apparent reason. just destroyed life ....with no provocation
and when they were finished...they said 'nice'
I dont think I can use the word 'nice' ever again.
@peter
They mention there are children in the van but they still shoot the crap out of it, is that a good call as well? And, sorry, but I think you're wrong, the guy has a camera tripod. Still, if a couple of guys have guns, is it right to shoot 18 people to death with a helicopter?
one more thing @ Peter can you confirm those guys aren't reuters reporters? i cant make out its a gun because the video is not clear enough to determine that in my opinion. Now if those guys who are dead are not reuters reporters then i will agree with you they are enemy combatants. By the way what if those guys holding "guns" are security contractors? or even local security? or the reporters were interviewing local chief? in a country as chaotic as Iraq if i was a civilian i will want a gun too to protect my family from extremists ect, hell even from foreign soldiers that can go rogue and decide to rape my women. Peter if you on the ground and confirm the facts then i believe you, or you have some CSI camera technology that can clearly identify the reporters were holding guns.US is made another Vietnam. Better equipped army and soldiers but don't understand the enemy, the people, the culture. Technology can only do so much to compensate for the naked eye and the brain.
Thanks for the doc vladko, fantastic.
I've been in the US for 3 weeks now, and for those outside of it, here is the great news from the greatest country in the universe and in history (so says the media): the wikileaks scandal, (so says the media), is the effort of a punk and his buddies, all of which need to go to jail for it. CNN, Diane Sawyer (her fake controlled outrage is a joke) and Fox News showed for about a week that north korea and Iran having nukes is what the leaks were all about. Now they talk only about how wikileaks aids terrorism, that assange is a rapist and that people cant get jobs in the government if you publish links about the leaks. there are exceptions, but these are typically concealed in humor... or in commentary by unimportant people.
it is so funny so watch.
I won't be surprise that one day there will be bombs raining from our heads coming from the United States of America itself. Their idea of freedom and democracy is twisted and can no longer be trusted.
Don't you get it? The war in Iraq is the new form of Holocaust. A clear message of how they unvalued human life as shown on the leaked videos.
America, the land of the free and the demons of all demons!
@ Achems Razor,
I had already found and marked the ixquick as soon as you mentioned it previously. Thanks a lot :)!
The differences between the west and east is corruptions in the East is up front. In the west, it hid behind so call democracy. In a true democracy the "masses" or i prefer common people votes for all policies that will effect their lives. We vote for presidents/prime minister, then what? do any of us in democratic countries get a vote on anything else? whilst the common people must obey any law/policy is passed by a few. Whatever anyone think about the purpose or objective of wikileaks or Julian isn't the big issue i think. The bigger issues are we really living in a democracy, can still we trust people we elected to make the right decision for us "without any consultation to us the public". Secrecy is where the mother of all corruptions can hid no matter what system, what country you leave in.
@ peter
I watched the 39 minute version - and I think I saw a gun too - I am no expert Peter - if I am wrong then I apologise. I am not experienced in viewing this type of footage. oh dear
@ hate machine
I tend to agree with Charles B. - gosh, you really made me think hard then though. I am only an individual, I am human, I trust the governemnt to make the right descisions.......thats the problem
Hate-Machine: No, they shouldn't disclose information like that. Well, maybe as the "reeducation camps" are most likely filled with Christians and some political individuals. I'm not sure now. Hum. Well, anyway, there needs to be some "secrets" in order for the government to work. War and conflict are rarely completely straitforward. I'm trusting the U.S. governement less and less, but I think it's still one of the best in the world, bar none. I still love the Red White and Blue!
@WTC7
Exactly my point. Thanks for sharing.
Vlatko: Thanks.
I am all for freedom of speech. I think journalists should have protection to be able to freely disclose information.
But I think there is plenty of need for secrecy.
Here is an example.
The South Korean embassy is contacted by a North Korean national. The North Korean national has been working as a guard at "reeducation camps". The North Korean national seeks political asylum in the US and is willing to trade any information for asylum.
So the South Koreans contact the US and pass the information along.
My question to you is this. Should the US disclose this information?
Sid or Razor: Can you summarize this doc? Unless I let it buffer for like 5 hours and just get bits and pieces.
@Charles,
There is a link above the video pointing to YouTube. Watch it there.
@ pasqualito,
Thanks for the link, I think it's absolutely necessary to approach every issue from more than just one perspective. Each of us then draws their own conclusions.
I greet every attempt which aims at increasing transparency of the work of governments (any government), but I would caution in favor of limited enthusiasm before we see how this affair develops and we learn a bit more. It would seem to me, as admirable as what he did appears to be, that Assange's strategy for the leaked documents to reach the public is somewhat questionable in the sense that he left it to mainly pro-government media entities to make the choice of documents to be published. That is the part I don't really appreciate.
I wish to see where this whole story leads in the future. It can either result in tighter control of the internet or it could trigger a ripple effect and many more people start using wikileaks methods to put information through to citizens. I am hoping for the latter.
That is a GUN! The other had a jacket, now that I've watched it 5 or 6 times. Watch at 26:00 and those were not the journalists. Their shirts are different. They're terrorists, pure and simple. Even after watching it many times I would have done the exact same thing they did. They followed procedure to the letter. They looked like, and still do look like, enemy combatants to me, including the van. Believe what you will. That in my opinion was a good call based on all the information available to the pilots at the time.
Peter post 75
may you never have a foreign nation invade your country and start picking people off in the streets that may or may not have weapons from a couple miles away in a helicopter.
The US military did not disclose that anyone had guns on the ground in that massacre. They looked like guns to you and they may have been but they were reporters for Rueters and they were holding cameras. If you see the whole video crazyhorse thinks the camera is a surface to air missle launcher.
And you decide not to think about the other video of crazyhorse firing a rocket into the house while a civilian walks by. Or the guy with his arms up in the air after getting out of the car.
The problem with a lot of countries that have a lot of miliatry power is they don't really give a **** about putting shoes on other feet or basic empathy. You spout terrorism and it gives you the right to go and do as you please.
I look forward to the day when China is number one. And in my lifetime it will happen. Can't be any worse.
So I can possibly give you one for three. There are some documentaries on this site that paint a better picture of the numbers of civilians killed in Iraq and from the looks of it we can see how many of them met their end.
thanks for finding this vlatko, gonna check this one out
siddartha guatama - Obviously you didn't watch it carefully. They did have guns. Not the journalists, but the men they were with. Big ones! Let's both watch that part again and look carefully.
Sid: Is there anything about North Korea?
@ Peter
Peter - they did not have guns! look again! they were journalists carrying camera equipment - 2 journalists - you plonker!
I wonder as well why the media scapegoat only the US government as the only country that kills innocent civilians?.
What about what the Islamic governments have been doing killing and repressing their own people and supporting terrorist to blow up people all over the world?
One example is the ethnic cleansing that has been going on in Sudan for years with the support of the Arab League that wants to keep control of Sudan and expand its control in Africa?
We need to be informed about all the atrocities that are being done by China, Saudi Arabia, Russia, Hamas , Hezbollah, Al Queda, etc...
Just and observation: At 25 minutes into the doc the group of men with the guns. You can clearly see two machine guns. This was radioed into the cammand. When they replied they had no personnel in that area, then they did the right thing by shooting them. They're terrorists! No mention of any being journalists, but in fact weren't they associating with the terrorists at that time? If reporting a story, then they take the chance of being confused with the men they were associating with on an open streat with guns! I would have assumed as did the pilots that they were ALL terrorists as they were obviously together. Had I been that soldier, I would have done the very same thing. It's their job, and they did it well. I applaud them! Sorry terrorist lovers. That didn't seem like a war crime to me. The pilots followed procedures perfectly and without personal malice. They had the guns; they got shot, along with others in the obvious group. I would have made the exact same assumptions as them. I would have shot at the black van as well. Looked like terrorists to me! If you let a black van bold enough to pick up wounded in an attack where they had MACHINE GUNS, then you're dumb enough to let terrorists get away needlessly and that will cost American lives. Just a thought. Had the shoe been on the other foot, those same terrorists would purposely attack innocents AND children without mercy. This pilot did it on accident. I'm not so blind to see that the bias in this footage is skewed towards the terrorist at the expense of the American freedom fighters.
@ teddy
Im so sorry. I understand what you are saying - its raw.
but - if we all stand back - disconnected, smoking dope....whats gonna happen then? My heart is broken too - but, all life is suffering - do some degree or another.
but this is purposeful, and very very harrowing and cruel beyond belief. its time to band together - please Teddy stay alert! - we need 'Lerts' !
sarcastic connotations* (sorry) sid
@ pasqualito
Thank you for the 'link' ive just read it. may I ask WHO is F. William Engdahl?
His writing has sacastic commotaions - its smacks of disbelief - he is not unbiased - thats my opinion.
Yes! he makes some valid points but there are too many inconsistencies - inconsistencies with what we know to be the truth. dont you think?
@ Buddha Child - umm witness 23:53 to 30:51 - sorta destroyed my heart - what's left of it - I must acquiesce and hope this brave new world can make sense of it - totally disconnected by the way. Take care girl.
Intriguing thought, why would Assange have a massive secret like rape when he is trying to uncover secrecy? Wouldn't that be a huge irony? Simply doesn't make sense and even though no-one is completely without there secrets, this one seems like it was bought about at the most critical moment. Something smells bad and it ain't rotten eggs.
I am just guessing here - but am I right in thinking that the majority of these posts that suggest 'suspicion' (of the motives behind Wikileaks') come from Americans/America?
My computer's too slow to watch this, but I think more harm will come from this. He's given more power to true enemies and and terrorists. They will not change their evil ways. It' only give them even more power to cause death and destruction by giving them confidential information. The U.S. is not the biggest evil in our world today.
I think I smell David and Goliath
incidentally (for those of you that are interested) we started chatting about Julan Assange in the postings for 'The Naked Truth' - (on this site) we were disussing the situation before Vlatko uploaded 'Wikirebels' (if any of you wanna catch up)
thanks - sid
This is not just about America guys. Its about transparency. We, the public, have a right to know what's really going on in the world so we can make an informed democratic decision.
If those pilots in that helicopter knew everything they do is relayed back home I doubt they would have been such animals.
Its because governments hide behind excuses like "National Security" that they can get away with it.
I'm betting Justsaygrow's government is no better than the rest and its his "Blame the people" type comments that should be ignored.
We need TOTAL TRANSPARENCY.
@ Teddy
LOL i just studied your posts - I had missed the part where you said you were smoking 'bud' - is that Cannibis?
lolll - Im thinking that perhaps the cannibis is the reason why your posts seem somewhat 'disconnected' - just thinking!
oh and im NOT a guy - I am a girl
why dont YOU pay attention - and (maybe)lay off the harmful substances? .....whatever....its not MY mind that is clouded.
Oh, yeah: And isn't it intesting that he's being accused of the ONE criminal charge that people, no matter their political leanings, find near-impossible to deal with / think about rationally?
Notice that not ONE of the U.S. condemnations of WikiLeaks claim the stuff isn't TRUE. (Okay, one...) Wrong is wrong. Period.
@ Teddy
when I say 'think' I mean 'Think' !! - Im not so arrogant as to KNOW anything.& I dont beieve - i just THINK! -
lets not nit-pick please -
@ (post 48) Buddha guy - I think what you should do (and please don't listen to me) is figure out what you really think - hmm - not 'think' - but 'believe' - and, too not 'believe' - but 'know' - and stuff like that. Pay attention or not.
Thank you for posting this! Now i just need to find a way to do my part for wikileaks.
@reasons voice (comment 9) I think you are wrong - I hope so - I tend to (for whatever reason) believe in the common man - maybe baby - this is the turning point - then again I'm smoking BC bud and listening to John Prine - so who knows, except for all us. Take care buddy.
@Reasons voice (comment 5 @ Vlatko) You are flicking right dude! Gonna get interesting - right about now - hmm...
@Sid. I never specifically mentioned the war crimes element to this nor would I. That aspect of the leaks is entirely beyond negative judgment. The American people as well as the world have every right to know what goes on in war. It makes it real to those far removed from it and forces them to take some of the burden upon themselves. I may not have the same reaction to that aspect of the leaks as some. I hate the loss of life but at the same time am not shocked by it. I have looked into history and today is no different except maybe fewer civilian casualties. Entire cities were carpet bombed during WWII by all participants. No one bothered to count the dead. Therefore I am far from shocked.
@Ramus; I appreciate your good faith in the American people and your knowledge of our founding principles is better than most of our citizenry. I watch and comment on these pages and others during my work day. My coworkers some time stop into my work area and ask what I am doing. When I tell them something like "watching a documentary on Wikki leaks". They stare at me blankly then ask why. They will often then ask me whether or not I saw the last episode of "The Jersey Shore". For all you lucky people outside of the states who have never been exposed to this show, it is a "reality" tv show featuring Spoiled idiots with fake tans and no redeeming qualities whatsoever. That is the preoccupation of the nation you think should lead the way. We are inundated with mindlessness at every turn and many have embraced it so deeply they have no hope or return.
As to overthrow of the government; Even if the military were to be swayed to side with the people our government is so fat and bloated it would be impossible. Not to mention the fact that the UN would without doubt step in and shut down any movement to disrupt the status quo. Also the hope of utilization of the democratic process to install better people into power is a farce. The mere fact that a presidential race costs millions of dollars to embark on precludes an honest mans running for office. Besides we all have agreed to the medias collusion with government so how would such a person who seeks to change it all even get a moments time on the airways to express that and gain notoriety? No our democracy is a farce now. We are relegated to voting for one corrupt millionaire lawyer or another corrupt millionaire lawyer. The Rs and Ds next to the name mean nothing they are all one and the same body of oblivious power hungry egomaniacs who just want to be able to say "I'm the M Fing President!".
I know this was a long rant and I am sorry it is late and I am tired. One last thing however.
@JustSayGrow; While I would be willing to bet you yourself are an American, most likely college age and thinking you are a rebel fighting the power over your chai latte. I will point out to you that almost every single government in the world today is just as screwed up as the US. Every member nation of the UN can share guilt in all of this. The UN has and continues to start war after war. Who is it calling out against Iran? Who is calling out against N Korea? And whose intelligence agents advised both the UK and US that Sadam had WMDs? Yes the evil US far worse that nations run by holocaust denying maniacs who call for genocide, or nations run by warlords who hold their own people hostage by starvation, or Oil pashas that build underwater hotel playhouses while the citizens eat dried goat.
I quote a line from the band Tool. Before you point your finger you should know that I'm the man. And if I'm the man and he's the man and your the man as well, you can point that f'in finger up your A$$.
newsflash!
UK major airports (Heathrow & Gatwick) are crippled by the severe weather conditions - no flights are getting out or in
but about an hour ago - one flight was allowed in - from Gothenburg in Sweden.............
good morning everyone
yes indeed, this documentary is merely showing the 'tip if the iceberg' - and its a very ugle iceberg I think.
But - what we REALLY need to do here, is discuss it from a GLOBAL viewpoint, and not from a Patriotic one.
America is a HUGE place - but its not THE only place that matters here is it?
America is NOT a big fish at all.... its not even a fish! (joke)
It fascinates me how easy it is to tell where most of you come from - just by reading your posts! - nothing wrong in that - but you all need to look at the bigger picture - not just America's standpoint.
we need to work TOGETHER here - not as individual nations, but as a global family
hey vlatko why are my comments always awaiting moderation and other peoples arnt? worse posts go up automatically but mine always say 'awaiting moderation ' for like 2 days... am i really that bad that uve red flagged me like this?
Wow! I love the comments! The doc was great and I have been looking for some in-depth information about Assange and wikileaks.
@emanuel - the oligarchs have abused their power both abroad and in our native land, denigrated the common man to the point that he is estranged from any true power or influence thereof, save what cell phone company he will permit to rob and rape him of his privacy while we hit the pavement looking for a corporate employer to perpetuate the illusion of freedom
we are enslaved by our hopes and dreams tied up in our debt to them
How many of you are even Americans? Before you talk about shame on America, realize that we're only a country that's less than 300 years old. @emanuel "America is a culture built on and founded in violence". Violence that was brought here by Europeans. You can't throw America under the bus without throwing Europe under, too.
@WTC7 "Why are the US officials making such a drama over the ‘confidential’ cables being released gradually as of a couple of weeks ago?" In all honesty, the sentiment in America is really like "and you're surprised because?????" There was a nationwide shrug of the shoulders and we all went back to seeing what crazy lie would come out of Glenn Beck's mouth tomorrow.
Good job - Vlatko.
The power is back in the hands of the people - where it rightfully belongs!
@jack he is right though..and the U.S is guilty of far worse things than most other countries for at least the past 50-60 years.
America is a culture built on and founded in violence
what an arrogant little worm 'JustSayGrow' is...
he totally misses the point that this is about 'everyone' excepting accountability for the status of the world...
but insteads reclines back, holding his nuts, shouting foul at 'those stupid americans'!
newsflash: this is just as much your wakeup, what ever rock you live on
Great praise for this one. Thank you. Any and all means to bring the corporate amerigun global terrorist machine to their knees, is worthy. If the amerigun people are so adamant about their uninvolvement ("I am not responsible"), then campaigns should be drawn to rip out the administration, exposing your true puppet masters. Start with the federal reserve, and following, put all its global counterparts under seige. Until such a revolution is seeded...Well...y'all just fat, contented, selectively blind, and very small sheep with no value for human life, living the amerigun dream now aren'tcha?
The world has long had a message for you, and its probably too late to put on the facade that you are listening now, or ever have been, to the needs of our planet, and the well-being of earth's citizens.
Fantastic documentary!
Admittedly, I am a big fan of the Assange movement - however, I don't the sexual charges against him are completely unfounded, they are certainly unconventional...
What we are exploring here is the idea of integrity in a world whose value system is skewed toward conquest - in such a perspective deception, however so subtle, is permissible.
I believe the sexual charges are definitely trumped up - but it brings up intriguing questions... because it is suggested that he presented an illusory context to the women to ascertain his conquest - one that was maintained until the woman found out about the 'other' - conquest that occurred days/hours apart.
So is deception permissive in the sexual context, but unacceptable in diplomatic treaties?
Can any of us truthfully say we have exemplified pure integrity in every aspect of our lives? Would the breeches in our privacy sustain our proclamation if examined objectively? How willing are we for this to be tested?
Freedom has eroded into an illusion and a myth. There is a word for fearing your own government.
"The very word 'secrecy' is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings." - JFK
"The very word 'secrecy' is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings." - J.F.K
@Waldo
Then yours, ours and all the other greedy politicians need to be hit where they will feel it the most - their wallets. But then they can cry "Terrorism!".
But I'm wondering how many US servicemen would turn their guns on their own if civil war did erupt. The people need to convince these guys that their government is corrupt and needs removing. Get the armed forces on your side and the road away from tyranny is clear.
The link between business and governments must be broken.
@Ubik
I hear ya but, frankly, I am waiting on the world to catch up...
No point speaking to people who are not listening. Not saying this community is not, but the peasants need to speak among themselves, the netizens can't do the thinking for 'em. ;)
Did they find out who the soldiers in the chopper were that killed the innocent people and if so, were they charged? that s@#$ happens everyday in Iraq and Afghanistan X10 by US soldiers . Mostly cuz they're a bunch of hate filled trigger happy hillbillys. lmao , rape?? I don't think that guy could rape a kitten if he tried, something 'they' do to men who they cant bring down so they pay some disgruntled sluts to accuse . Hope wikileaks exposes more corrupt leaders around the world.
@ Ramus
Don't be fooled, yes we are able to bear arms , but our government and police forces are truly beyond our reach. If we revolted we might score a few hits, but as soon as it got any where near seriouse they would come out and squash us like bugs. They have arms and technologies that far out weigh anything we could go buy at the gun shop. Besides in my opinion that is simply not the way to go about things. We have the power to take it back peacefully. This is still a functioning democracy, the public has simply gotten niave, lazy, and indifferent. The American government has systematically removed our ability to think critically and for ourselves. They did it through controlling our education and using religion and class warfare to devide us and consume our lives with petty insiginificant trifles. It happened so slowly and they were so slick that no one, not even people like myself that were looking for it, truly saw it coming. Well, I suppose a few did but they were quickly silenced, much like Mr. Assange. But all we have to do is wake up, we can take it back peacefully it is not too late. The question is; will we be able to unite despite differences in things like ideology and religion? I hope so, for our own sakes as well as the rest of the worlds future.
Great doc. Well worth the watch. If wikileaks goes down there will be something else to replace it.
Movements of this type are emergent and so long as there are people willing to leak the information there will be people ready to electronically publish it.
It doesn't need a leader because it is lead by the amoral behavior of others in positions of power. As long as they behave badly this will happen. Sanata is watching, and he's gonna find out who's been naughty and nice.
Is this nation so ashamed of its conduct that it has to cover it up?
I guess what I am trying to say is let's drop the masquerade and just acknowledge that we couldn't care less about people and refuse to take responsibility for our actions. This might not be good anything, but we are bigger, so just give us what we want and if that doesn't work we will get it anyway? Then there is nothing to hide, nothing to be found out and Assange is out of business. I hope you're listening, Hillary.
This is a great documentary! I applaud Assange for having the courage and desire to have the truth known to the world. America, the land of the free and home of the brave, is under a news blackout about its involvement, politically and physically, with foreign countries. GW Bush had the war news censored by only allowing embedded journalist to be present. These journalists agreed to have their reports approved by the State Department before release, so only propaganda was reported.
We need more Assange(s) to reveal the truth about the actual hidden agendas that the world superpowers have and the lies and cover-ups that take place on a daily basis to mislead their citizens. Like the buying of elected officials by corporate lobbyists, altered safety and dosage level tests on medications, pesticides, sweeteners and preservatives that are performed by the manufacturer with no-one in government checking their authenticity or accuracy; only to have them recalled years later because of the devastating effects on the consumer.
We live in a world where the dollar rules and major corporations buy elected officials and have laws passed that benefit them, usually at the detriment of the consumer; we need the Assange(s) of the world to keep an eye open and an ear tuned to their deceptive, and corrupt tactics. Without truthful, accurate and timely information we ARE relegated to be the ‘masses’ like a herd of sheep blindly following the leader into oblivion.
Julian Assange used to put this on the end of all his emails :
“If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people together to collect wood and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea”
i think that may sum up the reasons behind wikileaks and Julians grab of atention.
I think the American people are where it should start as its written into their constitution that (and forgive me for not knowing the exact wordage) they should remove those from power if they go against the rights of the people and install a new government. Added to the fact that you all have a right to bear arms whereas we do not. I don't think a pitchfork cuts it nowadays.
@ Rv
i think you have considerable intuitive knowledge of whats going here RV - and I respect your views a great deal.
but does it matter what his motives are for exposing war crimes? - because whatever they are - they are not important in contrast to the greater good i.e. he has brought it to the world attention - arent you grateful?
he mentioned (what he saw as the USA 'justifications' for doing what they did);
he said (1) - that they were trigger happy - this is a very important aspect to consider even when looking at all people. - we lose focus in the midst of saturation - we become de-sensitised.
Julain assange is probably so deeply involved , that it may appear to others as thought he is being 'blatent' - but even is this is the case - his GOOD deeds far outweigh the personal ego.
however, as a buddhist, I maintain what I have always said - the downfall of man will come from EGO & GREED simple.
I thinkthe only change that will come is that the US and other governments will only increase security of sensitive information.
Hats off to the leakers. It is a tough call to cause harm to some with the release of some of the information but if it can somehow put a stop to the blatant disrespect of life during war that would be worth it.
Thanks for the doc once again V
@sid; I think it is obvious that Assange is using this for personal notoriety. At the end of the doc. you even see that most of his early coworkers call him a petty dictator and feel his motivation is selfish. I do believe that the people should know what is going on. but fear that the only recourse for most nations my own included is possibly physical conflict to dethrone those in power. I admit a degree of hesitance in the face of a second civil war.
i truly applaud julian and any information leakers, sad truth is that most of us have become spectators (myself included), to really take the war to those who have power seems impossible to me, for now atleast, I deeply thank those who do it , its probably because of you guys that there arent too many Hitlers today..
may GOD punish those who made those kids orphans for fun.. all of them. stupid american soldiers let the world see what you are doing for oil.... you will die too.. we all will.
@Reasons Voice
I said the American Government not the American people. Suggesting America is a scapegoat means you are suggesting the US is innocent, although I'm not suggesting my government is in any way more innocent you have to admit your politicians are creating a lot of hate around the world.
@Ubik
"America is the whole western world"...... What? I'm English not American. That's like saying an Indian is an Israeli. Ridiculous comment.
im holding my tongue for a while - but
@ reasons voice
why do you think that Assange is using wikileaks to elevate his 'social status' - ? you seem to think thasAssagnes motives are selfish and greedy? youseem to imply that he has an 'agenda' - why do you think this?
dont you think that ANY exposure of wrongdoings by ANYBODY is VITAL to know? without knowledge we have no chance of reform. and I am not referring to any particular race or country - im talkimg anout the WHOLE WIDE WORLD - we are HUMAN BEINGS! ffs
@Wtc; Yea I didn't intend "the masses" to imply cattle like image. Just one of the better words to encompass the regular people of every nation on earth who have little to no say in the regeimes that govern them.
@Ubik; I am an American and find my self grouped into an image that is far from flattering on a global level and it just picks at me. It just goes to my point that it is never those in power, those responsible who are hit with the consequences but the every day joe that is targeted and labeled and ultimately put in danger.
very interesting! thank you vlatco
It will be very interesting to see how all of this EVOLVES. I do believe in certain aspects of secrecy for national security such as not printing the names of agents, military personnel or individuals. But I also think that we are all tired of our governments blowing smoke up our ..s .If the goal of a democracy is our governments representing THE PEOPLE we need these types of actions to give us a true accounting of How the people are represented. Not sure about all of you but many of the leaks so far posted sure do not represent a government working in my best interest. Keep It UP . Thanks Vlatko
@Reasons Voice
"the in thing to do these days is hate America so why not run with that. Easier to have one scape goat than to realize that the whole world is run by a collection of corrupt officials and that even your own nation is likely just as bad."
Well, my friend, America for you may mean something else. For someone who lives abroad, America stands for Empire. America is the whole western world, not just the states ;)
As for web regulation, I think we must wait and see. Its too early to make assumptions. Basically, it might lead to the opposite. We still dont know many things about the whole issue, as WTC7 said, it takes alot of research.
My only concern is this
(we live in a world where everything is about information)
How can we possibly be sure which of the information we receive is the truth? I dont know,I am still very suspicious about some things and i need to look into before i form an opinion.
Just another brief comment (nothing personal @ Reasons Voice, believe me :)). It caught my attention earlier but I forgot to put in my previous post - I think we all should avoid using the term "masses" when talking about the common people - us. It just hit me as I read it that the term plays into the hands of those in power who consider us a powerless and inarticulate bunch of ignorant cattle.
I've seen this doc just a few days ago somewhere else. My first thought was exactly what @Reasons Voice said above - that this will be used to impose more control over internet, the ultimate thorn in the eye of those who want absolute control over information.
Why are the US officials making such a drama over the 'confidential' cables being released gradually as of a couple of weeks ago? I don't think that the lives of informants whose names have been made public and who, indeed, could come under risk now, are of any interest to the US policy makers. On the other hand, based on the information released so far, there is not much that justifies being labeled as an attack on the national security of the US. Let's see if there is something else that they are dreading being released that is waiting to come to the face of the earth.
As for the release of Iraq documents earlier, which caused a lot of uproar in the international community, what happened eventually? Nothing. And these were serious records in comparison to what we see being released now. The only guy arrested so far (that I know anyway) is Bradley Manning who 'disclosed' classified information. What about the killings and those who committed them? What about the torture and those who did it?
I don't know, these were just my, still unrefined, thoughts about this. I still have to do a lot of thinking and research on the issue....
@Ramus; You should look into the actual Wiki pages. More than half of them pertain to other governments and their lies and intrigues. But of course the in thing to do these days is hate America so why not run with that. Easier to have one scape goat than to realize that the whole world is run by a collection of corrupt officials and that even your own nation is likely just as bad.
Any government that keeps secrets from its populace cannot call itself a democracy. I'm disgusted that instead of apologising for killing innocent civilians all the American government can say is "We want our secret documents back". Once again, shame on America.
Very good
More stuff like this is needed to expose abuse outthere
Interesting Documentary.
Rape Charges -> Ridiculous. It's kinda like the Whole Michael Jackson thing all over again.
Thanks Vlatko for the Doc.
Tc
This all will undoubtedly lead to web regulation. Our whole world is about to change.
@bb
ur the people!
thank you Vlatko ;)
I have not watched it yet but i am curious what measures the goverment forced upon the other innocent 3rd party websites like paypal and amazon to stop supporting wikileaks. I'm mean as far as paypal goes it was just there to fund the site for donations right?...so the owner of paypal loses money on the interest and other fees. Would the goverment force it on the owner of pay him off for loss of revenue?
@Vlatco; Thank you for posting this. I have wanted to see more in depth on this issuefor some time and I do not trust the media in any way to provide impartial information.
The documentary has swayed some of my opinion in the matter but not all. I still believe Assange is in this for himself and is using information as barter for his life-style. I also still believe that, although the masses do need to see this information, in the end it will only lead to more conflict and death. The people will suffer for the crimes and subversiveness of their respective governments as always, while the actual perpetrators will go unharmed.
the real issue is not who is leaking. The issue is the stuff that has become leaked and the criminal behavior of many elements of governments all over the world.
"hes wielding information against us."
sucks to be on the other side huh?
I look forward to what people say, too.
Thank you very very much for finding this documentary Vlatko, I have watched it - and I will keep an eye on the comments to see what everybody has to say.
theis is a REMARKABLE documentary, unbiased (I think) fascinating stuff. Thanks again.