Taboo: Transgender
In the west, our gender defines us as individuals and as a society. It influences how we act and interact, even our characteristics.
Strength and aggression are seen as masculine, sensitivity and insight are feminine – so when you can’t tell who’s male and who’s female, it can be confusing, disturbing and at times; frightening.
This is the story of America’s post-operative transmen, Thailand’s kathoeys, the Fa’afafine of Samoa, the sex-reassignment surgery capital of the world, Trinidad, Colorado, USA and a couple in a long-term relationship in which both partners are transgender.
Around the world, customs differ, but almost every society shares one thing the concept of gender. Many believe that there are only two: man and woman. But in India, transgender women who cut off their genitals live as women and form a third gender.
In Indonesia, hermaphrodite priests lead a society that recognizes five genders. And in rural Albania, women swap one gender for another to gain equality. Sometimes even the most conservative cultures must make room for those who challenge convention. But for many, embracing additional genders is still taboo.
I couldn't watch more than a few minutes of this. If the rest of this "documentary" continues how it starts, then it's obviously sensationalist crap.
Transsexuality or being transgendered has NOTHING TO DO WITH SEXUALITY... yet from the very outset this "documentary" makes it clear that from their perspective, it is.
Ignorant and uninformed.
I'm sorry but being transgender doesn't have anything to do with sexuality!!! It has to do with gender and might I add that nobody is "changing" anything sex or gender, sex which is the physical part of it is "corrected" or "reassigned".
A transman's (person who was assigned female at birth but possesses a male brain) brain chemistry is exactly the same as someone's who is biologically male, are you then suggesting that the same part of your brain that drives any man to "believe" they are male makes every man a pedophile also? Ridiculous!
There are plenty of women who were and are born with male genitalia ovaries and a womb and chromosomes xy, or men born with something of a mix of male and female genitalia and chromosome xx, so how can anyone say that one needs the right set to be whatever one knows and feels is right.
And it is pretty much an accident, foremost because the factor that causes the the fetus to have xx or xy chromosomes is the sperm cell and there are thousands of them, and secondly because sometimes chiasma (crossing over) can happen during the meiosis where two chromosomes break and reform into a completely new allele group.
Someone who says hateful and hurtful things without a better reason than ignorance and lack of humility gets called a bigot for a reason and doesn't have the right to get mad at anyone but themselves for not being kinder in the first place.
In my opinion, you can change genders, but you can never change your sex.
i agree
I disagree.
Who are you to tell anybody how to live their lives?
To me you can change anything you want as long as it harms nobody and you are happy.
I will not force anyone to live a life of lies and to become someone they are not just so I can feel comfortable about myself.
If you need other people to conform to patterns of gendered behaviour and norms in order to feel secure. I suggest that you might be an incredibly insecure guy and need to spend time on self-reflection.
Transgender people exist in all societies throughout history. They are not an inversion of nature but a testament of human diversity. The world is a better place with transgenders but am not sure about you.
First of all it's just my opinion and I am not telling anyone how to live.
Woah!! How defensive are you??? peppaboii was mearly stating an opinion. No where in peppaboii's comment did it state he/she was "telling anyone how to live their lives". You have your opinion and we have ours. We are right though. Have a nice day!!
Who are you to tell anybody how they should voice their opinion?
Jo, Is clearly an example of the ignorance that is floating around the world. No one chooses how they feel. It is true that you choose to act on your feelings or not but no one should be miserable and made to live trapped inside a body that doesn't feel like their own. It is like being buried alive, I personally feel like if someone doesn't have any knowledge of how it actually feels, that they don't have any business commenting about things they know NOTHING about. I also don't think it is anybody's business, other than the person themselves, why does it bother anyone? It's not your body that is changing, so don't worry about it.
@AdamnEve
I think what Jo was trying to get across is that in the same way that a transgenders mental chemistry leads them to believe ther are of the wrong sex, is the same as a pediophile having a different brain chemistry that in turn makes them attracted to children. I highly doubt Jo is condoning the concept of pediophilia but instead drawing to the fact that both of these parties do not have control over the sexual emotions they have. In the same way that a hetrosexual man cant overcome his attraction to women.
Clearly Jo is being sarcastic unfortunately another Christian feels the need to jump on their high horse, most likely ignorant to the many pediophile's within the establishement they so idolise.
Dudes that want to be dudettes.....you will NEVER be women because you were not born one (no XX chromosomes). It wasn't a mistake. You were born to be male. And to say that you are a woman is an insult to the women whom were born that way. What may have caused your disorder would be the hormone imbalance that you may have. Just because you like to dress in women's clothes and wear make-up or do the effeminate things stigmatized in our culture does NOT mean that you must be a trans. As for actually feeling that you should be a woman....anyone can fool themselves into believing something they are not. Ever heard of the placebo effect? Pain is mental as is most everything in this world.
You sound so ignorant it's funny!
I haven't even read the comments, but I can tell from the first lines of brokenguitarist... This is crazy. I live in San Francisco, so I forget there is such ignorance and hatred outside.
Trans rights. Trans/Gender/Queer have much to offer the rest of us in terms of wisdom. It's an ironic situation, isn't it?
You "forget there is such ignorance and hatred outside"?????? Well we are here to remind you. Just because someone has a different opinion that is not yours does not make them ignorant or hateful. We have our opinions too. Perhaps it's YOU that is ignorant and hateful. I will continue living the life God gave me and be happy that I wake up and breathe each day. Somedays suck but that's life. Be grateful for what God has given you and shut the hell up. Stop trying to change what God has created.
The comments on this documentary definitely show the wide range of opinions in the topic of transgenderism, and definitely highlight the stigma, stereotypes, and misunderstanding that still exist in modern society. It's very depressing to me, as a transgender person, that people like me still have to endure being treated as second class citizens just because we don't fit neatly into the societal norms that exist. Whether it's being ostracized within our own families, having a far more difficult time finding employment, or even something like finding a place to live, we always have it more difficult because of how society perceives us.
It isn't just a case of wanting to "mutilate" yourself in hopes that it will cure simple depression, and it isn't the same as just amputating a limb just because you don't like the fact that you have legs. It's a much deeper emotional issue than that. Those who have these perceptions have no idea what it's like to look in a mirror, see yourself, and want to vomit, or how simple acts such as using the restroom can make you feel so disgusted. Yes, it affects self-esteem, it is depressing, and it takes a major toll on your daily life, but it's gender dysphoria that causes these issues, not the other way around.
There are as many different flavors of sexuality as there are people in the world. We are all individuals, and have the right to be who or what we are. After all, even the U.S. Constitution grants that life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are inalienable rights, and as transgender people, and above all, human beings, isn't that all we're pursuing? We're the same as anyone else, with hopes, dreams, feelings, wants, and needs. The fact that our minds tell us that we're in the wrong bodies is the only difference.
Grow up. Evolve.
Trans. Rights. Now.
I disagree. I guess it's okay for people to screw animals? That's just another type of sexuality. As well as children? I suppose that is as well. I mean, pediophilia is being discussed as a psychological disorder as well as gender identity but it's okay because it's part of the many sexualities that stew in the country.
Jo, you have some serious issues. How on earth do you justify feeling either more feminine or masculine to having interspecies sex?! The outright physical abuse of children who have no power to themselves is a crime and is not in the same category as a male or female who simply identify more with the opposite gender. It's like someone accusing you of being more likely to physically abuse a child or animal because you like to get spanked in the bedroom, which could be seen as a byproduct of your subconscious violent tendencies expressed through physical intimacy with those closest to you! Do you like to get spanked Jo? Maybe you need therapy too for your skewered view of sexuality, gender and identity.
Seriously Jo did you watch any of these films? This isn't about a sexual flavor. This is about Gender Identity. Not Sexual Identity. Why does everyone outside of people who accept this think this is sexually related?
Then explain why this couple in the documentary feel they cannot be together IF the guy feels he wants to continue his life as a female after his/her 6 month test? I thought this wasn't about sexuality? Make up your freakin' minds. Living as a female means wearing pretty dresses, wearing makeup AND having sex with males!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
trans rights ,now .
Maybe the solution to this is...
Its not the body that is wrong, its the idea of what is feminine and what is masculine. Why do boys have to play with trucks and Gi Joes? And girls dollies and learning to cook??
They don't they can do whatever they want. I don't have a problem when my son plays with babies or dolls, hes learning how to be a good father...
Nothing wrong with the transgender people, AT ALL...its what SOCIETY makes them think they need to be...what SOCIETY pressures on us...these cookie cut images of who we should be...what we should do. I say this only because when I see the transgender people, they act in a way that I see as acting...and they are still not who they are...I don't think they know who they are...
You have no idea what people like me go through. You have no right at all to say that we don't know who we are. I know perfectly well who and what I am. Don't think for a second that because you consider yourself to be "one of the guys" (as you put it) that you have even the slightest idea of what goes on in the mind of a transgender person. I sincerely hope you never reproduce because you're the worst kind of ignorant person; the kind that thinks they're being helpful. You may be well intentioned, but don't tread on territory that you have no authority on.
It's not about being feminine or masculine...anyone with a right mind knows that feminine men and masculine women exist yet they don't take the step into transition as someone who is trans* would. The discussion can go on and on but maybe everyone in the comment section should educate themselves more before going around and spreading hateful messages which are being read by more people than you think. If you're interested, I suggest you watch the doc called " Dr. Money and The Boy With No Penis" (A very detailed and harsh circumstance film to watch) and also an informative video called "Trans 101" by SethExM.
Both can be watched full length on Youtube.
I like to ride motorcycles, shoot guns, and work out.....I also like to play guitar, practice martial arts...drink beer, eat meat...and curse like a sailor, but Im a chick. I am aggressive, I have a high sex drive. My friends are men, and I am "one of the guys" I have the mind of a man...in many ways. I am not sensitive, nor am I very feminin, I don't want to wear dresses, and I rarely wear make up...I don't act all sexy and sultry, LMAO...
If I had short hair, and wore dude cloths, you would think I was a dude...
BUT...I am a woman, and proud of it...
I suppose we all get what we WANT though right?
Well, I wanted slightly bigger boobs, a bigger but...sexier legs, and a smaller nose...
Should I go do that also to make myself happy?
...Naw. LoL, I've become content with who I am...and I realize after all these years...I am beautiful...and I absolutely love myself.
...and I wouldn't change a thing, because this is who I am, what I was born...and you have GOT to respect that. Clean slate. ---- pure mind...not by changing yourself, but by changing your perspective and way of thinking.
PS: Think of how many starving kids a optional surgery of any kind could feed.
It's a shallow use of resources considering how blessed you are to have the money. I can't think of a reason why a optional operation is more important than the 20 or more young lives that could literally be saved. I know it's society as a whole not people getting optional surgery causing the problem. Just food for thought when your talking about who has it hard:)
That argument is silly. You can say the same thing about buying a car, eating a stake or doing any other unnecessary activity. And gender identity is not nearly as trivial as these activities. David, next time you drive a car instead of taking the bus, just think. How many starving children could have had operations with the money you spend on gas?
....You both made very important statements.
You SHOULD think how many children you can save by taking buses/walking/riding bicycles/not getting operations, not over eating...not buying luxurious cars and outfits...
and thinking of the children you could be saving...
....I think it all comes down to what you do give...where your intentions are...and focusing on others, will take away from your own self pain...and happiness for WHO YOU ARE. The WAY YOU ARE.
If you are a man in a womans body, then that is how you were born...a MAN in a WOMANS body.
I think you could love your mind, but also...respect yourself...
They say love is more than their sex...
...exactly.
The majority of us dont have that money on hand. Its years of work, skimping meals and most of us are strongly involved in our comminities at least lgbt side anyway. I always donate a dollor at the register. Why are kids starving? Isnt that in some way shape or form the wrong of the parent? Is it everyones job to make up for the slack of others? If so then why are we i mean everyone living in a society built the way it is? Get rid of money and lets see if the human race moves towards a higher purpose.
"Just food for thought when your talking about who has it hard:)"
Fair enough, but that doesn't mean trans people don't struggle as well. Because someone has a bigger issue than someone else it doesn't mean the other person with the lesser issue doesn't suffer because of it.
Not a good argument really, if someone has money why should they give it to 20 poor people? screw that, it's their money if they want to spend it on becoming a chick or a dude let 'em do it who cares.
I'm not completely in-line or for this kind of thing at the moment, possibly due to ignorance, but your argument is stupid.
Yo,
I'm very much for what makes whoever feel the happiest. My favorite is any reason for adoption over birthing kids.
Currently U.S. prisons use tax dollars to cover estrogen therapy if a inmate has been using estrogen for a wile. It's a costly process as is loosing the physical ground gained if you are the inmate being forced off the therapy. Is this a good thing? Also who's to say you can't be abstinent, dedicate yourself to charity or science and be just as happy if not more. Granted your efforts may fail and you could die miserable either way. Everything is a gamble and nothing is particularly honorable.
I'm all for gay rights, however mutilating the body to be something you are not, is not a right at least not at the cost of my tax dollars. I suppose if one chooses to do so (as disturbing as that is) then it should be respected, but it should never come to a point where this surgery is publicly subsidised. I don't care how confused some of you think you are, there is nothing natural about transexuality. I say with no malice attached, please seek help!!
wow sam12. your "im all for gay rights" statement was drained of all effect with the sentences that followed. you really have no idea how the gay rights movement even started. and please, if you are so concerned about your tax dollars, then you should direct your arrogance towards military spending. your bigot-self clearly got nothing out of this documentary and perhaps you are the one that needs to seek help (no malice attached !)
You should know that being transgendered is a gender identity, not a sexual orientation. There's your first mistake.
Do you know anything about any of this? Get a hypothesis instead of an uneducated guess at the Social issue.
This is probably the nicest transgender documentary I've ever watched. They don't make transgender people out to be freaks, and show the human side and reveal the different variations of transgender types. It's accepting, positive and non-judgmental.
I could never be one of those people who turns my child away over an issue like this. I really admire Nangtomb's Mother for supporting her child through something so emotionally challenging.
I agree. Science shows that it is in the brain. If my child had gender misalignment, I'd support them all I could. The only thing I'd make sure of...is that they were sure before they had surgery because it's irreversible. My only other thing I'd worry about is psychopaths in society that couldn't accept my child.
I enjoyed this doc :D As a transgendered person myself it was informational to learn about this subject from other cultures perspectives. I am genetically male, and I have my first financial screening in a week and a half. I totally can't wait ^.^ my first "official" step is coming up! My goal is to be on hormones before 28.. which now looks to be a real possibility. People in my position rarely have life easy. I have lost my family except for my father, step mother, and my dear sister <3 Living through this for over twenty years of my life has truly enlightened my outlook on what it means to be human, and to love.
I'd care more if a person is peaceloving, educated and tolerant when I meat him/her than what kind of person or people they would want to fulfill their sexual desires with.
It is nosy and arrogant (imo) to bother people that don't have it as easy as others in finding out what they want.
I agree this doc should use the words frightening etc less. It made the featured people sound like criminals or sick.
In the end if it happens with consent, above the age of consent, then it isn't anyone's business but their own.
This was a very interesting documentary on the different types of genders there are in humanity. I was especially intrigued by the acceptance of Sumona culture of men who act like women and actually encourage it.
Human genders:
1) Man in appearance, Male in mind, sexual attraction women - Mamawom
2) Woman in appearance,Female in mind, sexual attraction men - Wofemen
3) Man in appearance, Male in mind, sexual attraction men - Mamamen
4) Woman in appearance, Female in mind, sexual attraction women - Wofewom
5) Man in appearance - Female in mind, sexual attraction men - Mafemen
6) Woman in appearance - Male in mind, sexual attraction women - Womawom
7) Man in appearance - Female in mind, sexual attraction women - Mafewom
8) Woman in appearance - Male in mind, sexual attraction men - Womamen
9) Androgynous - neither male nor female, sexual attraction both - Androgynous
So in human beings we should have designations for all nine kinds of human variations rather than just two, man and woman.
It is time to come up with designations for all nine types and integrated them into our society.
I agree with Kolaw, the program overly used the words disturbing and frightening. I just found it all interesting to see how different societies handled different variations of the human condition outside of male and female that western society accepts as the only two normal conditions for a human being.
Arnold Vinette
Ottawa, Canada
This was a very interesting documentary on the different types of genders there are in humanity. I was especially intrigued by the acceptance of Sumona culture of men who act like women and actually encourage it.
Human genders:
1) Man in appearance, Male in mind, sexual attraction women
2) Woman in appearance,Female in mind, sexual attraction men
3) Man in appearance, Male in mind, sexual attraction men
4) Woman in appearance, Female in mind, sexual attraction women
5) Man in appearance - Female in mind, sexual attraction men
6) Woman in appearance - Male in mind, sexual attraction women
7) Man in appearance - Female in mind, sexual attraction women
8) Woman in appearance - Male in mind, sexual attraction men
9) Androgynous - neither male nor female, sexual attraction both
So in human beings we should have designations for all nine kinds of human variations rather than just two, man and woman.
It is time to come up with designations for all nine types and integration them into our society.
Arnold Vinette
Ottawa, Canada
Your interesting list of 9 doesn't take into account those who are bisexual, attracted to both without being androgynous, or those who are genderfluid or genderqueer, or those who are intersex.
How do you differentiate appearance and born sex?
i think it was good film. They overly used the words disturbing and frightening though
I was at the doctor today! I just got approved for my next surgery!! :D Here in BC they cover everything except for phalloplasties and metoidioplasties.
Phalloplasty is where they take skin from your arm or leg and make a phallus out of it, do a urethroplasty and implant to create the part. This is functional but not as enjoyable for intercourse for some.
Metoidioplasty is where they release the 'cl*torus' from the pubic bone and pull it out of the body extending it. Then they do a urethraplasty, build the shaft out of the skin in the area and presto. You have a perfectly senstate, fully functional, though smaller, part.
I should be having my chest reconstruction in the next couple months. I had a hysterectomy in 2008. The hysterectomy is necessary as being on the hormones puts us at a much greater risk of cervical, uterine and ovarian cancers.
One guy in the states developed cancer and the physician refused to treat him because he was a transman. He died as a result. So now there is a big push to get them done. It also eases up the estrogen/testosterone battle.
After my hysto, I went into menopause (which happens to anyone who goes through a hysto regardless of age). The symptoms are FINALLY dissipating now :p
Even more positive: I got an email from an A & R company (Artist and Repertoire) and they enjoyed my bands music and wants to work with us in finding a record label!!!
@ Ez
Ive just sent you an email! - dont laugh - this is a mega moment in my life!
(dear diary.................) lol
@ roachinkansas
yep! I gotta say that everytime I read yr blogs, I have a stern word with myself...(DONT laugh Sadie.....the man may be serious......)
but youve done it again - Im keeling over - Ive probably bought those vegetables...and ate it on the way home (b4 I washed it)- like an apple or a carrot? oh who cares - it was well worth it....and yes I would do it all again!
oh boy guess what? was chewing my pen....snapped the cartridge, my lips are black, my fingers and my keyboard. Quite frankly Im in a mess -
@ Ez
thanks for the clue about the s t o o p i d word - yes thats about all i really use - SO f%$"K&*g ROCK!
I had the pen in my mouth because of you EZ - I was jotting down yr email .....dont feel bad! lol emailing you now. I cant keep finding everyoe here - Im thinking its a chat room but the rooms are called 'Taboo' and 'ApeMan' and It just doesnt "connect" - oh except for Randy - hes usually down the Wormhole methinks! MEGA! X
@ Sadie
hey we can't really just chat here I think they like it to stay on topic pretty much. Heres an email address you can reach me on. ez2b12 at centurylink dot net.
@ Sadie
Oh, and Sadie- You got blocked in moderation cause you used the stu$#@ word. I think Vlatko wants to see how its being used before he lets it through. I don't KNOW- that just a guess, mind you.
I know what you mean about "that little voice" just hang in there though. Let me know if you need to talk to someone and Ill get you an email address we can chat on. Sometimes it does help to talk to someone that has been through it. I stay busy with school but it would probably help us both. You're never really out of the woods, I'm not any way.
@ Ez
kk im gunning for Bill Mayer now - Im gonna like this I think! Thank you x
@ Ez
Im actually sitting here with an inflatable doll, and a banana, practising doing a M-F sex change! oh and did I mention the kitchen knife? and the apple corer?
Its gotta turn out right cos Charles B. told me how its allegedly done - (just making the hole - with the apple corer)
@ Ez2b12
hello Ez u been playing Jazz? cant believe you play Jazz - thas wikkid ez - nice 1 -
@ Sadie
It's Bill Mayer and he is a comedian that has a political twist. Very pro-atheist and anti-religion of any kind. Open supporter of the legalization of pot. He has a show on HBO every friday night. Used to be called politically incorrect now it is Real Time with Bill mayer. Google or youtube him and you can check him out. Funny and in my opinion very politically savy.
@ Ryan
No problem, all is forgiven. I have jumped without looking several times. Welocome to SeeUat Videos, if its your first time. Looking forward to your comments.
@ Charles B
now that was interesting Chaz! when you said about it being 'split 3 ways.....and inserted into the body cavity'
little voice inside my head says 'STOP'!
WHAT body cavity?
I thought men only had one.....oh gawd, I feel stupid now
@ez2b12
I just wanted to say I am sorry for jumping. I was quite tired and it would have been better if I stepped away, reread and then replied, which is what I would normally do.
I offer my apologies.
Ryan (In Canada)
While it has been prooven in some cases that a corrilary exists between gender identity and brain anomallies those tests have been done on very few individuals. This is a classic "chicken or the egg" issue where self identity is involved. Does the low self esteem arise from the gender issue or vice versa. Before any drastic measure such as gender reassignment is done, I feel the testing for the corrilary should be done. Reassigning gender to an individual who has the brain anomaly is perfectly reasonable. However doing this procedure for someone who is suffering from gender identity issues due to psychological illness is wrong and will not solve the persons issues. For examle a man who at an early age was abused and molested by a male can at times,later in life, feel disconnected from his gender identity. He will no live a happier more complete life with a vagina. Deep psychological councelling is needed.
The diagnostic tool for finding the corrillary is either PET or SPECT scanning. These tests are very involved and expensive, and most likely not even available in many of the countries mentioned in this film.
As to the comment in regards to individual freedom; While I hate to use the term "slippery slope" it does apply here. There has to be a consensus as to what is and is not ok. That consensus can be updated fairly regularly. However it cannot be determined simply on individual will. I will direct you to the perspective of NAMBLA. Wherin it is felt that a sexual relationship between a man and a young pre-teen bor is quite natural. We infringe on their "rights" with laws against this activity. Is that wrong? Is that not limiting their freedoms? It is. The idea of complete self determination is a tempting ideal that is completely shattered by the fringe elements that would do harm by right.
That was a really interesting documentary. Surprisingly so. My wife asked me if I would EVER want to do that, and I said, "Never!"
@ EZ
I just asked you a question but it got blocked into moderation, what am I doing wrong? I asked you who Tom Mayers was, if this gets thru Ez. Thanks
@ Ez
Just a quicky....can I ask you, who is Tom Mayors? whats his political & religious stance, (broadly speaking) ?
I am like 'duh' when it comes to american stuff - and I am very stupid at Intenet too.
btw Is this a chatroom?? am I blogging or chatting??.....and does it matter?
does u tube cover the whole world? do I get the same utube as america? (or Canada?) i got soo many question, so Ill leave it there for now. thanks EZ
@Sadie the Celt
You're on a blog and you're posting comments. It is not a chat-room.
You get the same YouTube as everyone else in the world unless you choose otherwise. Worldwide or specific country (at the bottom on YouTube homepage).
@ EZ
WOW-O-WOW Im genuinely (genuinely) honoured at what you just wrote Ez2b12 - Im so imperfect & sadly lacking in my interpersonal social niceties (since my HUGE drug habit)
-Im riddled with remorse, & full of doubts and insecurities..with a tiny little voice telling me to 'score'!
..oh heck - (too much information Sadieeeeee!)
@ Achems
so your an 'unarmed american with medicare' huh? - now what smart retort can I come up with for that....(I wonder? ........!!
ps do you get bandages for nothing? Can you have your very own free pschychiatrist?....nah nah nah nah nah ME TOOO!!
are you both boys?
right, I am going to do what I am supposed to do now - and watch a documentary - yeah, lets get the boring bit out the way! LOL
Sadie in South Wales
I want to watch this after the boy's asleep. But, I do have a friend who has done transgender surgeries for her doctorate. She said they split the penis like a banana three ways and push it inside the body cavity. I also had a friend whoes cousin underwent a surgery where they tuck the whole penis inside the body and make a fake vagina, but not from the penis itself. This surgery is actually reversable, should you decide later to restore your "manhood". I can't see how it would keep from rotting inside your body cavity, but that's what he said. Out of ignorance, I assumed he was telling the truth.
I personally think eveyrone should just keep what they are born with, gay or strait, but preferably strait.
@ achem
I love that definition of Canada, very well said.
@ Sadie
I am a jazz musician so I loved the music as well. This guy is really talented, and funny. I think he will do well in the US as long as he gets through to the right markets. He should go on Bill Mayer's show first, they would love him. My opinion is that we have tons of closet liberals in the country just like pot heads. They love the stuff, but don't want anyone to know (shhhhhh).
We do seem to have a lot in common so far. You'll find that myself, achem, randy, erie666, reasons voice, coyote03 (The Coyote to me) and many others tend to agree on most things. Glad to have you join the crowd, welcome.
@ Achems
So your in Canada hey?.....so thats whats different about you! - we are off to a mighty fine start then Achems .......( now, all is happy here on Waltons Mountain)....
@Sadie:
Minchin is about to break into America? okay. But I am Canadian, but that does not matter (LOL) my definition of a Canadian, is "an unarmed American that has medicare"
@ James
u buzzing again tonight James? only just read yr reply to my post - thank you very much for the info - I cannot agree or disagree - (Ive always been a Woman trapped in a Girls body - its so not fair!) so I will take your word for it, lol Sade x
Yeah, and I think Tim Minchin gives a perfect example of the differences in attitude to religion (that doesnt sound right!) - the comparison of USA and UK..and the people therein.
uno wot I mean bruvvers! MAS
After reading what some of you wrote in answer to me I am left wondering wether you really understood what I wrote. Maybe it's my fault because english is not my first language hmhm.
As so often some things are allowed simple because societie doesn't dan't to discriminate people. But objective point of view, it cleary is mutialation. The body is changed in a way that certain functions that naturally could be performed can't be done any longer. You lose the ability to do something because of the change done to your body. It's pretty much the same as wehen someone losses his genitalia in an accident.
It is an irreversible loss of physical function. You can't actually argue about that. The point thats beeing made is that the psychological gain is worth the pysical loss.
Also my original point was not that sexchange is mutiliation, I wrote that there are people who want to amputate their limbs and that that is self-mutiliation I then went on to say that there are simelarities between that and sexchange, therefore making a sexchange somewhat of a gray to darkgray matter.
Also I never said that I was against it, I only said that I regard the issue as controversial. My reasoning was pointed at the fact that it is not a little pill you take, its permanent and irreversible and therefore it is questionable wether its a good thing or not.
Oh and by the way: I am an Athiest and I do not have any moral codex that tells my that gays and lesbians and those who feel they are not in the body they belong to should dy in agony or be outcasts in societie. I am rational and logical. Next time please read more carefully what I actually write and then take a minute to think about it until you are sure you understood my arguement, before you vehemtly object. lol
@ sadie
Thankyou so much for that Tim Minchin thing. I LOVE IT!!! I am now going through all his stuff on you tube, thanks again.
@ Achems
Oh you made me happy - I love passing on little gems - I know hes about to 'break into' america - but to be honest with you Achems, Im not sure if I want him to - Id HATE for him to change, know what I mean?
he did an inteview on USA tv - he covered religion - and I suppose its this interview that made me relise the differnces in attitudes to relgion across the pond - I think he will appeal to the 'open minded' which is why I wanted you to have a listen. Thank you for giving it a go Achems!
have you listened to 'so f$%^&*g rock? - what timing hes got!
his '1984' is a wikkid spoof of Eminem
and as for 'Canvas Bags' - well!!!!
His timing is sublime 'if i didnt have you' watch for the knee tremble...just enough to make me wet myself
im laughing just typing this! rock on Achems and Tim
@Sadie:
Okay, you got me hooked! yes, loved "Tim Minchin's" "Storm"
Have not even heard of him before. It was a blast!
Randy, and eire666, would love this also.
@ Ryan
You seem to have misunderstood completely, boss. The write up I supplied came from the AMA and is in refference to body dismorphic disorder, not gender identity disorder. I never even spoke of gender identity disorder in the post you reffer to. Read a little closer befor you jump next time pal.
@ giant blobb
You said: " ...but if I think I would be that much happier without my arms because my brain isn’t working right I should be allowed to do it? wtf. Thats exactly why the standard is not to do anything without medical reason…well except for plastic surgery…and Sexchange… "
What you seem to be overlooking here is that they have identified a physical problem in the brain that causes this issue. This means no amount of phsychotherapy is going to cure the issue. Unfortunately they do not have any medicines that can cure this condition. So what do you think we should do with these people, since you seem to think it is up to others to decide for them. What is your cure doc? Surely its not to just let them live thier lifes in torment, or would that be o.k. with you?
As you said earlier doctors take an oath not to cause harm. Leaving these people in torment is doing them harm. By refusing them treatment, the only treatment that works so far, you are harming them. I for one see no problem with giving them what they need to be functional and happy, after all the rest of us got that same chance.
I would say the same for sex changes. There is a medical reason for the procedure. The person in question is living in torment and so far this is all we can find that helps that torment go away. Therefore, as long as the proper tests and evaluations are done to make sure this is not a temporary or confused decision, doctors should be required under oath to provide treatment, which in the case is sex reassignment.
Are you sure your objections don't have more to do with your sense of morality or religiouse beliefs than logic? Because I am having trouble finding the logic in your arguement, even using your own words.
@ez2b12
LOL where the heck did you get THAT information????? That is sooooo outdated!!! Either that or it's a load of BS.
I work in transgender health as a professional in the treatment of Gender Identity Disorder and have also transitioned. I can tell you that there are absolutely NO correllations between eating disorders and gender identity disorder.
lol that write up you posted is hilarious!
@ Achems
Hey Achems! How are you?
Achems!- I will bet my bottom dollar on this (bold) statement;
you will love Tim Michin - oh lets go crazy and shout LOVE HIM!
google him pleeeese?
the url i provided was for one of his more serious pieces of work (Not Perfect)
I also think I kicked the 'Creationists...' doc into the back of the net, with Tim minchins 'storm' - he just about got something to say about everything - and I cannot extol his genius enough Achems.
I swore I would NEVER use somebody elses words as a way of explaining myself.
But Achems - I really hope you will listen to him and tell me the truth - if you think hes rubbish - thas ok, but somehow I think you will be hooked.
Adults are allowed to do with their bodys whatever they want, just as long as they don't pose a threat to themselves or others.
It complicated, because mentaly ill clearly can't be allowed to do whatever they want with themselves, but...who decides who is mentally ill and whos not? What is crazy and what is reasonable?
If I believe there are bugs under my skin that I need to kill, before they eat me and want to amputate my arm I am clearly crazy, but if I think I would be that much happier without my arms because my brain isn't working right I should be allowed to do it? wtf. Thats exactly why the standard is not to do anything without medical reason...well except for plastic surgery...and Sexchange... ;)
I can't begin to imagine how difficult it must be to live in this way.
Good grief, childhood, puberty and being a teenager are hard enough without having to try to deal with what clearly are terribly mixed emotions and views.
@Ryan I agree partially with you on the fact that no one decides to be transsexual.
Personally I do believe that sexuality is one thing and gender is another. However, we know that the "brain" and the "mind" are not the same. It seems to be one of those mysteries that isn't understood yet.
The mind-body connection is inseparable, I think.
To me it is a murky area. We think with our brains, but feel with our minds, if you know what I mean?
On the surgical removal of an arm, etc., that is quite different than having your sex changed. A big part of what defines us as individuals is our gender.
I can imagine that this is an area that would make a person feel as if they were living a lie, not being true to who they are.
In the strictest sense, I believe adults should have the autonomy to do as we wish with our bodies. If a person's country or government forbids sex changes, then really, the government "owns" that person because they aren't "free", but only as free as their government "lets them think" they are.
Just one woman's opinion
@ Achem
I have been researching this and actually they call it Body Integrity Identity Disorder (BIID) and say it shows up in brain scans. The disorder you where reffering to they say is called body dysmorphic disorder or body dismorphia (BDD) and is usually associated with eating disorders or cumpulsive need for plastic surgery, Micheal Jackson must have had this. (LOL) In your defense however, many doctors now say that these two disorders are really one. The jury is still out on that though.
Body Integrity Identity Disorder (BIID), formerly known as Amputee Identity Disorder, refers to a neurological and psychological mental disorder implying a psychological feeling that one would be happier living life as an amputee and is usually, if not always, accompanied by the desire to amputate one or more healthy limbs in order to enact that desire. The most widely accepted theory on the origin of BIID at present is that BIID is a neurological failing of the brain's inner body mapping function (located in the right parietal lobe). According to this theory, the brain mapping does not incorporate the affected limb in its understanding of the body's physical form.
In my opinion these people, if they can not be cured through meds or surgery which as far as I know they can not, should be allowed to amputate the limb in question. If that is the only way they can function and it is a physical disorder, what other choice is there. I suppose we could just say, tough walk it off (LOL- no pun intended) But that seems awfully cold to me.
One guy I read about, after trying to get amputation via licensed medical professionals and being turned away, cut his own hand off. Fortunately he had done enough research that he did a pretty good job and did not get infected or bleed to death. He remains anonymous as he has told his family he lost the hand in an accident. He told News Week he was finally happy and would never wish he had his hand back.
@Sadie:
Your URL does not seem to work, says does not match any documents, just tell me the name of what you are referring to, on youtube.
I cleary stated that it's forbidden in the USA and Europe, I however did not say that it was forbidden all over the world.
I'm pretty sure there are quite some counries that simply don't care, as long as theres money in it, question is if you would want them to operate on you with that in mind.
The problem is that our Medical personel is bound by their oath and that oath requires them to not harm someone, unless theres a medical reason. While the people who want to "change sex" most likely don't see it as harmfull or self-mutilation, from a doctors point of view it clearly is. Of course a psychologist would say that there IS a medical reason, question is if thats reason enough to allow them to undergo this major change.
There is just one thing I'd really like to know: How many people undergo such an operation and regret it afterwards, keep in mind that it is not reversible.
(of course you could change back, but i really don't think doctors would advise it, because of all the things changed it's alot more dangerous the second time, plus the original genitalia wouldn't work.)
@Giant Blobb
Wrong unfortunately, there are several places in the world where u CAN get your limbs amputated if you can provide a long and documented history of clinical Body Dismorphia, a syndrome where people want to get rid of (some/a) limb(s) because their brain's chemistry tells them that they should..
Actually it is forebidden to remove any Body part without proper medical reason, at least in the US and Europe. And no, it's still not an option even if the person says theyre going to kill themselves. As a matter of fact, anyone who is deemed to be a danger to himself or others can be detained in a mental institution. I'm not saying thats the way to go, what I am saying is simply that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to forbid the one thing and allow the other. Sure theres a diffrence between Limbs and genitelia, but both are major medical procedures and those are very dangerous indeed.
In general law's must be applicable to everyone without discriminating.
@ Achems
@ Randy
@ Eireannach666
another curve ball -Achems, I know yr a man of few words! but have a listen to this and tell me what you think? i have never done a URL before - here goes
go to you tube
/watch?v=CDGuPp1np40
I don't know why it blanks out 'L.esbian' and 'Q.ueer'.
1) Sex and Gender are two different things. Sex is in the body of a person, gender is in the brain of a person.
2) No one just 'decides' to be a transsexual. There is so much therapy you have to go through. And the transition itself is physically painful until the body has adjusted and healed from surgeries.
Also, when suicide is the alternative, it's not a choice.
Also, orientation (Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual Queer ect) is different from sex/gender. They are very seperate issues.
@ James
ha! ha! ha! ha! thas really really funny James! are you Welsh? why are you still awake?
@Sadie
I am buzzin now too!!
I love to smoke a nice spliff when I watch documentaries!!
And movies!
And when I walk the dog, drive to work, mow the lawn, tend to my pot plants, clean the house, browse the internet, listen to music, play the drums, play the guitar, etc.
I think you Americans call this a 'curve ball'?
going back to Achems Amputation stuff - but NOT in that context - more in the context of the 'Phantoms in my Head' documentary, could it be suggested that the removal of genitalia could still leave the Amputee with sensation in the missing organ?
where does that fit in to the transgender post-surgery-resuming-of-sex-life?
now theres a thought! - Im buzzin now
@ez2b12:
Absolutely, there are doctors that will amputate healthy limbs for people that desire it to be done, many cases!
Google..."amputating healthy limbs"
@ Achem
OMG!! are you seriouse? That is insane. I can't believe a doctor would actually do that. Man that is wierd, how in the world could a healthy limb cause mental distress? Is the doc on SeeUat Videos? I got to see this.
@ez2b12:
I know what you are saying EZ, was not including you in my response about curiosity, was just saying in general.
Believe it or not there have been cases of people wanting to cut off limbs, completely healthy legs/leg for example, otherwise they were suffering mental distress, and they actually had the leg cut off, there was a doc on it somewhere, forgot where. Real weird stuff!
I couldn't sit through this doc having a child of my own...
@ Giant blobb
Are you saying that it is illegal to cut your arm off just because you want to? I never really thought about that, though I really cant see why cutting your arm off would appeal to someone. On the other hand I could see that if you where inclined toward the feminine and where in reality masculine or visa versa, well that could really mess up your self image.
I would say the difference is that gender confusion or dissatisfaction is a recognized issue that causes severe depression and other mental illness. Where as, as far as I know, there are no recognized cases of ones arm or leg causing them mental distress, unless it is damaged or not healthy for some reason. Thats just my guess.
I think that if you apply for gender reassignment they make you go through a bunch of phsycological tests to see if you should get the surgery or not. I always assumed they where checking to see if your present gender is the root of your distress, or if you just think it is. At least thats what I gather from television, I do not know anyone that has been through it. I have several gay friends but they seem happy to stay with the gender they got at birth.
@ achem
I am not syaing thier should be limits, this is just something I am not curiouse about. If someone is curiose about it, more power to them.
It should be mentioned that no matter what you do wih yout body, there are still just 2 genders. And its argubly that even if you change your body you remain your original gender, because even if you cut things of, remodel bodyparts and or add thing via plastic surgery, your body never even had the potential of working as male or female.
Yes there are people who are actually born...lets say somewhat in between. But I'm not aware that there was actually someone born with working genitalia of both genders. Mutations don't define a new gender.
I don't really care, they can do what they want, allthough I must say it's a gray zone. For example it's forbidden to cut someones arms of just because he/she want's it, one the other hand sex change is allowed because the people would be depressed otherwise...I'd say it's not just an gray area, it's getting realy dark at times. ;)
I'm with Sadie on this, why should there be limits on being curious to all that people do, or have to do. It does not mean that anyone has to follow any examples. Right?
I'm just sayin.
@Sadie
Hey, got a few pre-op friends and I've spoken to post-ops. This is what I've heard, not sure how accurate it is haven't talked about it in awhile.
M to F actually works out pretty well as far as sexual enjoyment, you can basically make the v*gina out of the p*nis by turning it inside out and other things that would make most men very uncomfortable to think about. F to M is much more difficult, expensive and still doesn't work very well. There is a way to basically enlarge the c*itoris to form a small, semi functional p*nis. Or they can use a strip of skin (from the arm usually) to form a p*nis that needs to be artificially hardened for sex and doesn't have much sensation.
For the deepened voice hormone therapy works wonders, it also helps grow body hair and muscle tone.
The website replaced the P word and the V word with asterisks!
How a****y retentive is that!!
@Sadie
I have read about female to male surgeries (probably old news now) where the p*nis is literally manufactured from the sensory skin of the v*gina. However, erection must be artificially maintained using a rod that is inserted into the false p*nis.
You are right that male to female is easier (they said so, not me) because the outer skin of the p*nis becomes the lining of the manufactured v*gina. Artificial lubrication must be used for sex.
Apparently, both M to F and F to M patients enjoy all the sensation they experienced before the surgery! I am sure there have been significant developments in the procedure since the articles I have read on the subject.
I am a heterosexual male who is simply interested in how the surgery is accomplished. I know that the costs, both monetary and psychological, are formidable with this procedure and many who desire it must live without ever having the opportunity. As for those who are appalled by the topic, lighten up, because there are far more obnoxious events in the world that fill the news everyday.
@ Ez
Thats ok EZ! I totally understand and accept what you say. Everybody has their limits I suppose! - I wonder when I will reach the end of my curiosity? I seem to be getting hungrier and hungrier for anything that I need to know (or dont need to know for that matter!) Sade x
@ Sadie
I have no idea, and want it to stay that way. We have finally found the end of my curiosity I suppose. No offense intended to anyone, I swear.
well this was a fascinating documentary - broadly covering just about everything about 'trans'-
Some parts of it I have seen before but I dont know where. I thought the first bloke (the one that lived in san Franscisco) was very very attractive, it was just his voice that gave him away! - or maybe its just me being pernicky? Isnt there some way that the voice could be 'deepened' in these cases? I also think that in Male-Female changes, the hands are a give away, as is the 'adams apple' oh and also the big feet.
It must be a lot harder to change women into Men - how would the genitalia turn out?
and on both cases (ie Women-Men-Women) do the sex organs work? _ duh I know that procreation is not an option - Im just wondering about enjoyment!