The Right to Roam
6.96
Ratings: 6.96/10 from 26 users.
Unwanted, marginalised, defiant - the Roma people have become the target of governments across Europe.
In France and Italy they have been thrown out in their thousands - accused of illegally overstaying their welcome and blamed for increases in crime.
They say that in their countries of origin they are victims of discrimination - a minority with few opportunities.
They are now taking advantage of European Union laws that allow freedom of travel to all European citizens - looking West to find a better life, yet reluctant to adapt to Western ways.
The Roma issue has now been forced on EU policy makers - they have to find a balance between the growing hostility and the rights of the Roma.
I moved to Spain eight years ago with an open mind and I knew very little about gypsies. Over my time here, what I've seen and the stories that other Spaniards have shared, unfortunately leaves me with a very poor opinion about them. Yeah, sure, there is a tax paying, law-abiding contingent, but for the most part very few people want to have anything to do with them. Teachers tell me that many of their gypsy students only come for the required days so that they may collect the money assigned to them in an initiative to integrate them. The stories make you shake your head: a newly wedded 13 year old gypsy girl informing her 9 year old classmates on what she and her husband did before going to bed last night. They do collect recycling materials, which I thought was a little bit redeeming, until I found out that they will deliberately set fire to the recycling bins just to spite other disputing groups of gypsies. Sorry, folks, but the blame does not fall on the government...In this documentary there's a woman who has 10 kids? Sorry, but I have no sympathy for anyone this day and age who sets out to do that, especially in such poor living conditions. That is downright irresponsible.
One needs empathy (not sympathy) to understand the problems and suffering of the Roma people. They have been marginalised people and left outside of developing society for hundreds of years. Marginalised people live in fear and as an instinctive response of self preservation, stay together away from the people who despise them. If they are treated with love and accepted by society, get opportunity to receive education and for earning a respectable livelihood, these societies will see a marked change within one generation. It is known that there is an inverse proportion between education and affluence, and fertility. The more of the Roma people come into the mainstream and join in earning their livelihood, the births will reduce. Before holding these poor nomads responsible for their condition, those who had and have the power and resources to do something for them have not done a thing not are doing anything. Actually the people and their governments are acting irresponsible.
While working in a restaurant I had a table of gypsies at my table, weird! They wanted everything for free. The father got caught "peeing" in the restroom >>>All over the walls. The children were obviously not schooled, Sad.
give them some borrowed land make them sign contract, teach them how to farm so that they can grow produce locally and organically in that way they would have no excuse to not being able to feed their family and they would have contributed to society.
Note that almost every Romani man in the documentary had a cigarette in his hand and yet bemoaned the inability to feed their families.
These people need help, and their main resources should be their own brethren who have apparently made it out of poverty, and who have the means to help, but who ignore the ones who continue to suffer in order to maintain their own rich lifestyles. Their lack of education and ability to empathize is due to lack of motivation. Education is needed much more than sending them out of the country and may lead to the Roma becoming better citizens.
These're doings of the jews whose hate Muslims and have turned this world into a discriminating,segregating society globally influencing their ideology.They're everywhere and this exactly is what was tried to get eliminated in the 1940s but unfortunately is resurfacing.
Hmmm. Well I agree that there is too much elitism in the Jewish people. But I hardly think that another Hitler is the answer!=^)
before i used to think european countires r developed as america, england, canada.. while they themselves r moving to america, england, canada, australia to get a better life so y do u treat others like that... europeans r creating the same problem to other deveploed country wat roma ppl r said to be doin to them?
They are -constantly- trying rob everyone in all the busy areas of Paris, always in groups and mostly children, it really ruins the nice atmosphere Paris used to have as you seriously have to be on guard. When I lived in Milan the camp behind the main cemetery was a hot spot for pedophiles as the Roma actually pimp out their children as young as 6 or 7 to predators like it's no big deal... They live in utter poverty but all they want is to have a bunch of children they literally -can't- take care of... I don't get it. Very hard topic to tackle. I feel bad for them but their culture and values seem too different to ever integrate. I mean this problem is literally hundreds of years old...
Yes, how sad. The "Roma people" are being discriminated.
All I have always seen about the Roma's in various countries in Europe is that is not part of their Gypsy culture/lifestyle to work - obviously they have no intention to find decent work in Romania or France, wherever they go. What they can do is steal, rob and rape - there have been numerous rape reports in Milan and area performed by "Romanians" of Gypsy origin.
I will not sympathize with someone who decides to b be a parasite to society, has the (lack of) decency to pretend that they're handicap or sedate their babies with opium(that's what Gypsy mothers begging in the streets of Poland used to do) to get more money off honest working people. Get a job, for God's sake! Mercy is for those who really need it, who are sick and hopeless but not for those who just choose to live a bum's life.
enslaved up till 1850, discriminated till 1930, sent to siberia, transnistria or death camps till 1945, discriminated again under communism, discriminated again after the fall of communism. You try getting a job when no employee wants to hire you for the color of your skin. You try getting a job when you can barely read because your teachers treated you like scum. **** off you *****. Stop talking if you know nothing about the topic.
Well, tough issue. Racism always increases when a country has economic problems. It's a funny way of blaming the poorest people about our own problems, and it's what France and Italy are doing in a certain way.
Minorities are an easy target. Maybe the parties that rule in France and Italy will win the next election.
Most gypsies or other minorities don't want to integrate into the Society, but the're not guilty for the global crisis or for the fact that I don't have a job.
It's hard to find a solution about it, but I think France and Italy are not in the right direction.
Need to Check your facts: Romas Along with Jews were persecuted, segregated and placed in encampments to be followed by extermination by Hitler's Nazis with the help of very ordinary citizens in Germany. as Strange, that you would scapegoat Italy as the source - hmmmm!
WWII was over 65 years ago. This stuff is happening now.
I was robbed by Gypsies in Dublin--2 men & 2 small children. The men broke into our rental car while we were checking into a hotel. They stole our suitcases & hung our camera bags around the children's necks. In recent years, Ireland has cracked down on the Roma population and the result is less crime & cleaner cities/towns. These people are loyal unto themselves. They are not interested in becoming a productive part of any society. They do not want to immigrate legally, work legitimately or pay taxes. I have no pity for them and I do not blame France & Italy for wishing to be rid of them.
You guys are doing this to weaker Muslims all over the world.Killing them in their own countries and taking their resources by force and discriminating overseas.Now,if analyzed properly,you guys look like jokes of your own policies.
Another piece of politically correct bs.Cry me a river! These people have to help themselves first. They avoid any legal decent work, and education. They are a nuissance at best to any host country because their values and way of life are incompatible with that of a modern society.. this is a well known fact to anyone who ever lived anywhere near them. They are just not interested in working and bettering themselves. Preserve yourr culture, language, heritage - by all means. But if you continue to consider work degrading and stealing, begging etc. As the only means you could ever support yourselves Then don't complain about discrimination because it is a result ofyour own behavior.
lakhotason, Mr. Wong and Mr. dmxi, please get inform and tell the people the truth. I being in the EU and what the Romans said is the truth. Here in the USA we have a huge problem with illegal immigrants. I Am Latino and I can't be call racist. my concern is the future of my country the USA. Now the truth about this illegal immigration is the culture of corruption in our government. The ruling class control the Main Stream Media and Washington corrupt politicians that refused to enforce our immigration laws, since George W. Bush this is going on, now Obama is another puppet that is worse than Bush and on the 2012 election none of the candidates will stand for the country's constitution or the rule of law but Dr. Ron Paul but, the Main Stream news media demise Dr. Paul by lying and deceiving the American people. By the way we love Canada and the US will never do any thing to damage our relationship.
God Bless and get inform so you can tell the truth to the people.
as a canadian i just want to tell you because most americans dont know....we dislike americans...(cant say hate thats not canadian like) but u obviously turned hardcore american bashing mexicans when ur a latino gimme a break buddy....ademas estoy seguro q no hablas espanol tio
Mark Fiori, regarding illegal aliens, it is not hate or racism I Am Latino and I love Mexicans and other Latinos. The point is the rule of law, our sovereignty and our Constitution. The Mexican Government enforce their laws and do not allow illegals in Mexico, I know this because I live for many years in Laredo Texas and Del Rio, Texas, and visited Mexico many times, they will fine you or jail you if you over stay in their country. Now I come to the USA in 1958 from Peru But you are right I Am 100% American Citizen and I will not betray the USA like many idiots that we have in our country.
Mark tambien hablo español muy bien, mucha gente tiene la idea de por que uno nacio en un pais que no es EE.UU debe ser loyal to el pais de su origen, y esto no debe de ser haci. Uno tiene que ser leal al pais donde es ciudadano y donde vive, se educo y vive con su familia. Yo soy testigo que la gente que biene de Mexico, el unico amor que tienen es el dinero que ganan en los EE.UU para mandar a su gente en Mexico. Nosotros que tenemos nuestra familia aqui, tenemos que defender nuestros derechos y el futuro de nuestro pais.
Que Dios te bendiga y te dea la intelegencia de entender este problema de imigracion ilegal y el multiculturismo que esta destruyendo Europa y los EE.UU.
your right....as a canadian with a low population and endless land we need more immigrants in order to excel as a country.....after living in laredo as you said im sure you have witnessed it firsthand and have an unbiased opinion being latino
FranciscoCanales, Some of us like Canada and Canadians in general, and, some of us Don't. The Canadian person replying to you is likely not going to understand someone of your depth. It almost seems as though he wants you to stay in some pre-assigned category such as 'member of race nation'. Pretty sad that people cannot recognize the righteous difference between nation state and 'race nation'. I bet said Canadian is not representative of all in his opinion, but, just rather the crowd he associates with and listens to. I think you may have unknowingly thrown some pearls before swine (but, that was before you knew the personal character of the individual you were conversing with). As far as the Roma, I hope opportunities will go to those among them that might wish to rise to a more integral way of life.
We have the same problem here in the USA, We have Mexicans that want to take over the Southwest of the country and many other nationalities that want to implant their way into our culture do not want to learn the language nor our culture. Multiculturalism do not work, it cost the country billions of Dollars and American jobs; but the elite of globalization continue to push their agenda to provide cheap labor for their cronies.
eh buddy easy on the mexicanos FRANCISCO!!!!
easy on the mexicanos..... Francisco Canales hmmm wonder where you could be from
The average net monthly salary in Romania is $488 as of Dec 2011. If one knew one could legally go beg in Paris or Rome and make possibly twice as much if not more just by playing music in the street....who knows what one would do in such situation.
I hear begging in the busy street of Vancouver will make you close to $100 a day.
az
Nobody respectable who earns a salary in Romania, even minimum wage, would ever resort to begging, except maybe in some extraordinary situation, and definitely wouldn't travel abroad to do it.
The Gypsy issue is much more complex than just being about money.
I know you are right, i appologize for my comment, it turned around and hit me right in the face. I was actually trying to defend the Roma but my wording was ill written.
az
100 a day ! too bad canada would kick me out after some time because i don't have the right visum/permit ....
Europe is tired of these people and the rest of the rubbish who flock to our cities. This reporter himself is biased against Europe despite living and making a good living here, perhaps he ought to offer a suggestion on where they should live, like Romania for example. Most of us don't care any more because the problems continue endlessly with little to show for the oceans of cash poured into this nightmare. Europe cannot solve the unsolvable.
the solution resides in every thinking human being.the first step has been made through world-wide conection via the internet where information roams freely!the second step needs attention which derives from a global denominator which in history mainly consisted out of pain,hunger & other sufferings!rarely did humans bond to change the world when there was comfort to be lost ,except in the sixties & they failed !
and the misspell buy is kind of appropriate.
I am debating if I should ignore Wong. Lol. Did he just say give everyone nukes to deter a US infused nuclear war? Carnage !! By no means I am a fan of US having nuclear weapons or any country for that matter of fact. But giving North Korea nuclear weapons would be epic. EPIC. Wong, you keep missing the letter 'R' in your name. It should be Wrong. Did you also just go from being pro-capitalist to communist in a day? I am suddenly fascinated by your intelligence..!
I am being objective. The US is the most dangerous country in the planet with a long history of territorial expansion, genocide, war mongering, invasion, massacring people, setting up puppet governments, continuing imperial expansion, and killing elected leaders. I think someone need to nuke Washington for the sake of humanity. The US rule the world by fear, and military power alone. That is a fact.
@phillip wong,
What do you think any other country with great power, money, military would be doing?
Today is the US turn, tomorrow some other power will be dominant. That is the game, and always have been.
If we just hypothetically give all US "strengths" to China or Korea, what do you think how they will behave? Do you think they will just sleep or they will try to territorially and imperially expand, kill elected leaders, invade, set up puppet governments etc.
They will do the exact same thing, and maybe more. So no, you're not being objective. You just want power shift, not a real solution. And you want that by wishing the exact same thing (what US is doing right now) to happen... but in reverse.
You just cry how US is bad, but you really don't have any substantial answer of why is that or how it can be resolved.
Another US propaganda used to justify tyranny by the US. It is promoted as the dominate paradigm in political Science, and international relation in US universities. What is known as the "realist" view of international relation. There were too many regional powers and empires in history that don 't fit with this Hobbian view of international relations.
@phillip wong,
Well, as I can see, whatever is said, you interpret it as US propaganda used to justify tyranny by the US.
I'm not an American, never been to USA. Also never said that what USA is doing now is right. So, I guess I don't justify US tyranny.
Are you sure you're getting the right comments? You can reread them anytime.
kind of ironic as the US is comprised of and made buy Europe's "Manifest Destiny Quest". What you are writing about started long before the US was formed. Sad and true.
Guess you will.
Oh you've got a real bad problem here Comrade. I may be wrong but little ol' me sees a discrepancy here. What you are saying now doesn't line up to what you said yesterday (so to speak).
So let us hear the Party line again.
Really, darn! I guess we have to nuke everyone.
Just Washington? I seem to recall other geographic locations but then again I may just have a faulty memory. Damnedest thing that memory. Let me check your past comments and I'll get back to you.
No. You said use them. All anyone need do is look at your comments.
I do see you're still carrying that little red book.
I recommend nuking Washington for obvious reasons.
What is "carrying that little red book" even mean? I believe in social justices, fairness, and the believe that anyone( anywhere) should be able to climb the social-economic ladder out of poverty. If this means I am a communist, then so be it.
Now suddenly and without warning this is about the USA vs The Peoples Republic of China. Simply amazing and seriously confounding to the Roma.
Now.. just imagine if they were/are black?
Don't get all upset, Dermot. If you get upset about perceived prejudices you might just start throwing around stereotypes and prejudices of your own, like that people from Kentucky are Neanderthals and that all right wing people are close minded fascists. Let's be real for a minute, my friend.
This isn't a perfect world that we live in, but making the best out of what we have and taking the opportunities we are granted is something that everyone can do.
You can look at everything that's happened and France and deduce that the Roma are unfairly discriminated against. But when you look around Europe and at countries where the gypsies may legally live, work,have rights to free health care and education, you're going to see that gypsies that want to be a part of the system and play by the rules aren't having problems doing so. I think that you need to find out more about these integration problems and the gypsy culture in general, to me it seems like you are poorly informed.
I feel sincere sadness for the gypsy children who are forced out onto the streets and being trafficked for profits, that really makes me sick. If you still think I'm a dickhead, well, whatever.
i wonder why they weren't granted a little piece of land in the sun in a foreign country ,without asking the 'natives' if it would be OK ,after being persecuted,beaten & 'gassed ' in kz's? no lobby i guess.......
They have been granted lots of pieces of land under the sun in many places. Which they then in no time turned into a garbage belt! And the Palestine people already got screwed over once, they not gonna take these in too haha!
sir,i believe you haven't fully understood which message i have tried to convey .
you idiots! these aren't Roma people... wtf is that?
they are called rroms or better... gypsies. they are never settling anywhere, they live like animals, they do not want to work, also they're very violent... my oppinion is to make a free community of theirs...
i know it's utopia now(no profit) but maybe someday....
You dont like gypsies, you dont like Romas...but you're glad we beat the Nazi's. ...?
I have a lot of sympathy for the less fortunate people of this world, but I would love to see these people who want to extend help to gypsies actually give it a try. While you are giving them a helping hand they will steal your watch, your wallet and anything else that they can get under their skirts. It's obvious that the people who are sympathetic to gypsies have never met one and to put the blame on anyone but the gypsies is just wrong. If they wanted to be a part of European society they could actually send their kids to school or show some respect for other cultures, but everyone knows that they choose to live the way they do and that gypsies only interact with non-gypsies in order to steal from them. If it wasn't this way, then people wouldn't hate them and not want them around, but too bad, it's the way it is because that's the way the gypsies have made it.
Gypsies are that way because of systemic/institutional racism from the outside world over centuries. They have no mean by which to climb the social-economic latter. Any type of change needs to be institutional, and pervasive.
pure truth!
You say you have sympathy Bcjachacha...but it doesnt sound like it. In fact your statement is more venomous than all the other comments
You said in your statement '' While you are giving them a helping hand they will steal your watch, your wallet and anything else that they can get under their skirts''. WTF....This is the small minded prejudice knuckle dragging freak opinion that belongs deep in the bible belts of kentucky. You have no sympathy. Admit this at least. You couldnt give a flying f--k man. Just join some right wing party an keep your small minded opinion to yourself. I can take that a majority of the people on this are right wing people, but you are trying to make people read your ridiculous statement by say 'Sympathy'. Go on and reply, but dont do it unless you express the 'sympathy' you feel. I know you cant.
For the record these people of Pakistani origin are called gypsies/gitanes/tigani. Roma is the capital city of Italy. Rroma is not a word.
Rroma is a word and is one of the accepted spellings of the word Roma, which has nothing to do with a city or place of origin. It's the accepted term for a section of the ethnic group known as Romani.
I didn't know that.
Always good to learn!...also i searched on Google and found a super interesting site: rroma dot org
az
@fonbindelhofas
it's sad that people consider that education
@all who talk about education (me to)
it dosnt mean that educated person wears suit and works in some criminal corporation, education is to learn things, think independently, learn how to sustain yourself and your family, how to grow food, how not to get fooled by others, adapt to new conditions... thats education, sad that its not in western scools:(
i,ve got a question,,DO THEY(ROMAS)LIKE BLACK PEOPLE????????????
in what way?
If they are thieves, it's because nobody will give them a job. It's kind of catch 22 isn't it. Thieve or starve. Tough decision. And we always remember the thieves. And if we think they are thieves we aren't going to give them jobs. And what are they supposed to think? Why should we care for you, nobody has ever given a shite about us. After years of persecution I would imagine it would be something like that. Then there's organized crime, who exploit them, who have many of them under their thumb. Who give them know choice except maybe to run away. I doubt if anyone here has spoken to or attempted to get know them. There was another group in Europe, they were the Jews. Hated everywhere before the second world war. So easy to scapegoat.
I think it's a problem for all of Europe. Education is the key to help them out of poverty. Poverty is the villain and organized crime. They need options opportunity hope not to be kicked around or exterminated. What are we if we believe the latter?
Many of us do not know that These people have nothing to do with Romania...................They were from India and they left India in 7th century CE to fight the muslim aggression but nobody knows that why they did not came back again to india but instead kept moving west.
They were prosecuted and tortured all over the world and the it still continues today.Even after centuries of so called civilisation the settlers hate the Nomads.
The discrimination and prejudice in these comments is disgusting, and is exactly the thing the Roma face every day, along with forced sterilization, denial of education, removal from any place they COULD potentially settle down, oppression, deprivation of basic human rights, and blame for others' fear. How are they supposed to "go back to their country" when they have none in the first place? They were dispersed hundreds, some say over a thousand, years ago, and to this day, ignorance of who they are and where they come from and why they are in this situation in the first place is more common than the truth.
There is some solace, at least, in the knowledge that their plight is becoming more well known, and that human rights organizations are beginning to stand up for them as a people deserving of equal rights and considerations, despite what the ignorant masses might think.
I vehemently agree with a lot of what you state. And I used to be one with the opinion that 'educate' them and there won't be any poverty to lead to crime.
But that would mean, they get educated only to turn back into the 'educated' French/Italian officials who are adamant on driving them out instead !!
In other words, our brand of education propagates 'Lets get rich, and join the other middle class. Look out for yourself alone, greed is shamelessly acceptable'
Just something to bear in mind....
There are a lot of hateful comments about the Roma. It seems that people like to hate on "the other" and that makes them feel better about their own lives in which they live as slaves to capitalism. The amount of money and land being stolen by global corporations is billions of times greater than anything the Roma ever stole, but the executives of global corporations wear nice suits and drive nice cars, so people don't hate them, they want to BE one of them.
Having being mugged (by a Roma, ironically) before, it's a traumatizing experience. Yeah, you can say, "oh look at those MNCs and all the land they stole in Ethiopia!" but, then again, it's a far more personal experience to be mugged, by anyone, but especially by people who are perceived as being "natural thieves".
If enough people WITHIN a society know someone who has been mugged by a Roma or feel uncomfortable around them, regardless of what statistics or crime data actually says, the idea that they're a "social parasite" (which is a horrible term, but really, that's how Europeans talk about them) will perpetuate.
@TonyIII
most of the people are perfectly happy about open borders, what do you mean? enouth with walls, if u like em keep em in US:P walls do not solve anything
The European Union is clearly anti-European. No sovereign country can survive with out borders. This documentary insists on packaging open-borders as "human rights".
i bet if you put younger romans in other environment with some decent education and other morals, and wipe all the crap they been trained to, i bet situation would radicaly change in one or two generations. its all about environment and stupid medieval traditions
i live in houston texas n america and gypsies are the worst...hate is a strong word and i hate gypsies....they are born into a family that teaches them how to steal/scam from society anywhere they go. they come into stores asking to use your phone and they dial a 1888 number that cost the caller 30 bucks,they go into stores to case them with children and old people needing to use the restroom only to come and steal everything you have, they set up tarot reading places that are store fronts for drugs..these are facts by the way not opinion, word of advice when you see a family wearing jean ankle skirts or of romanian origin watch out they go fom city to city scamming and stealing from everyone.
And yet everything that big corporations steal from your paycheck and commit the most heinous crimes in nature and in science, in the name of capitalism is absolutely nodded upon by everyone who thinks like you? Why because you are probably employed by one and enjoy temporary privileges the kind that a slave animal receives at the end of an arduous task; and to then look at the 'unfortunate' and claim they are a menace. Please be concerned about bigger picture and root causes for such and all relevant issues, for on this website your words will be shred to bits and tatters, as people are very informed here.
We have become numb to real problems, a gypsy stealing 30$ from your phone account, is relevantly insignificant as opposed to what form of oppression and economic/social turmoil must exist in Romania to drive them out in hoards where they don't have a life to return to. I don't even want to get into the subject of helplessly deteriorating ecology that we have come to inadvertently support in every nation, to support a convenience we shouldn't be enjoying. It would be far less harmful to the earth if we all survived like packs of gypsies occasionally scamming another social circle, than giving into capitalism = greed.
A unit of life, is a unit of life. None more than a unit, none less. So if the gypsy scams you, is because you fell prey to his street genius. Just like you would succumb to an intelligent animal in the forest had we been living in the wilderness.
Sorry if my comments are harsh, but you seem like an imbecile.
Don 't worry so much. With hard work, enterprise, and willingness to take risk, things will change. The problem is not capitalism. The problem is not enough of capitalism for the marginalized.
"The problem is not capitalism. The problem is not enough of capitalism for the marginalized."
No, this problem along with most others in society is absolutely caused by capitalism. For anyone to accrue wealth, someone else has to suffer. It's like a game of musical chairs, and when the music stops, someone's left out in the cold. That's the nature of the beast.
Don't ask me how any of this gets fixed, as I really don't know, but at least being honest about the underlying problems in society, would be a start.
I want to dispute "some else has to suffer" part, because, no one else forced you( or this "someone else") to do anything. If you have a crapy job, then that is because you don 't have a set of skills that someone need, or in demand by the society.
The why's and wherefore's of who it happens too, are incidental. The point is, it's built into the system, so it's always going to happen. Capitalism is by it's very nature intrinsically unfair, and for it to "succeed" some people will be made to suffer.
I really can't be arsed writing a verbose essay on the inherent abuses built into capitalism and the fractional reserve banking system, but there are a wealth of documentaries on this site, that make it all very clear. But I will say this....when you deposit some money into a bank account, and receive interest on your savings, that interest payment doesn't come from the banks profits. Instead, it's chiselled off people poorer than you, and their life is made ever harder due to spiralling debt.
How can that ever be an equitable basis for any society? In fact, it actually worsens the one thing that you suggested capitalism would cure. It would just pass it further down the chain, creating an even lower underclass of paupers.
Sorry, but you have a misunderstanding of how the economy works. Yes, money is created out of "debt". This is why people borrow money to create "product, and services" to make a profit, and repay the bank. This system works great. In the case of modern western countries, all those money is directed at consumption, and nothing is left over for capital investment. In other words, capitalism only work when people invest in capital( human, or technology). Since US education is crap, so much of human capital investment comes from imported talents.
I would agree that capitalism is unfair but then all other economic systems are also unfair because they are imposed from above. Only capitalism will spring up on its own. It always has and always will. It is a free system and a person is free to participate or not. If you wish to live your life as a card carrying socialist in a capitalist economy, have at it. There is nothing to stop you. You can't say the same for other economies. Just try being a capitalist in North Korea. I know its an extreme example but it does underline my point.
As far as banks paying interest, well yes. And the same for the banks charging interest. Its not chiseling. A person pays interest for the use of another person's money. A person pays for the use of a hotel room, a rental car, a seat on a airplane. There's no difference.
I invest small amounts in micro-loans and I collect interest on these loans and sometimes the rate seems extreme (12-30%). But these loans are on such a small scale ($25 - $100) that the actual interest itself is low in dollar amounts. But these small loans to impoverished people are more effective in providing clean water. jobs, and medical care than any national or international aid effort. I haven't chiseled these people, I've given them a badly needed means to better their life - by using capitalism.
I must criticize your statement that 12-30% interest on $25-100 is low -- it is relative. To the people you are lending to, that is not pocket change.
I am not criticizing your investment into mirco-loans, I think that is a great idea, but play a thought-game with me if you please:
Why could you not just lend the $25-100? Why expect anything in return other than the personal satisfaction of helping someone who really needs it. This can be interpreted as naive depending on your definition of success.
Considering the ins and outs of micro-loans 12 - 30% interest is quite fair and reasonable. You'll have to go to Microplace and read why this is so. It's a long story.
As far as personal satisfaction I receive that also, but this is a business deal too (as it should be). It has the effect of putting the borrower on an equal footing with me. Much better than offering free loans. Charity by any other name is at its base level a means of lording over another because he is dependent on you. Neither I or the borrower want this type of relationship.
Very interesting, I will have to look into that further. I only just learned about this the other day, so I don't know much about it. Thanks for the info.
Cheers!
My interest on my savings comes from a big company that pays the bank to borrow my money for some time.
But you are wright we should forbid poor people to take a loan in order to try and set up a business. That would be a good thing so they would never end up in debt.....
Really? Try explaining that to someone who was born poor and desolate African country where 'Rich' European countries or USA endorse the stealing Govt's who steal resources (oil, gold, diamonds, food, space) only to sell it off, so your westernized palette can be amused... or Capitalism sneaking yet another buck coz you keep buying their ****.
Try telling Xokuku that if he was born in a place torn apart by civil war, its his fault to not have a skill set to get your highly intellectually satisfying job. Remember, Intelligence is all-inclusive, You have to factor your good fortune in. Without which you are biased, and science by definition is never biased.
And I am saying this outside of whatever conversation your having with 'whitey'; this is for your response to Earthwinger
I don 't understand you. Are you telling me that it is wrong to sell a country 's national resources? Explain to me who is actually being "exploited"? I really want to know.
Lets use the example of mining. So, a country from the US wants to exploit a mine in Kenya. The company goes to the country, built roads, schools, and other infrastructures. The company also hire local people. Now, those local people themselves would have to spend money on things like housing, food, appliances, cars etc... These other things also create jobs! Since, everyone is working, there need to have supermarkets, hair cuter, restaurants etc which also create jobs. There need to be accountants, doctors, and lawyers which also now have jobs. Capitalism can work. The problem with capitalism is western countries spend more than they have. Not a lot of people are creating values( products, and service).
@phillip you are naive procapitasist, most likely retired older guy from GB, and whats with the wong? u buy yourself an asian? u just dont get it..."The company goes to the country, built roads,
schools, and other infrastructures." this lold me:) u truly believe that?
"If you have a crapy job, then that is because you don 't have a set of skills that someone need, or in demand by the society." and this statement is so ignorant and so far far away from truth:( cant get anymore wrong:(
p.s. this is unralated to doc
I don 't know if US companies build roads, and schools, but I read that Chinese companies do. No, I am not a old guy. I am a young Chinese guy from silicon valley, south bay, ca working as an engineer. No, I don 't think it is ignorant. It is just matter of supply, and demand within the labor market. So, the labor market is tough. I read about Apple engineers hating their jobs. Capitalism is no fun. It is tough, but it is the best system there is. There is no alternative economic system.
"There is no alternative economic system." another FAIL statement;)
No, capitalism can work. With hard work, strong family values, or community values, focus on education, and risk taking. Once marginalized people/society are economically well off.
Lol that sounds ret**ded. Who is doing what with the hard work? What are strong family and community values? What is the focus of education? Are we educating to work? Play? Think? And Risk taking... What the **** does that even entail. Are we all driving cars around 100 miles an hour? We Skydive to work? WTF. And then you jump in at the end with some 'conclusion' even though you brought us to no conclusions at all.
I have no problem with answering you, but it seems you ask it in such an ass-hol* way. It is as if I kill your family, or something.
There are certain values that work really really well with capitalism. You can think of family/community values is what shape social norms, and ultimately microeconomic behaviors that translates to macroeconomic trends. Here are some examples:
Hard work, as oppose to laziness( This serve at least two purpose. This means individual players within the economy will out of pure self-interest, equip itself with a set of marketable skills. It means the market tend toward low unemployment rate, which means the full potential of the nation is where it should be).
Education by "itself" don 't mean that much to national economies( Like having everyone earn a phd). Education only helps the economy, indirectly from its contribution to goods, and services, or production of goods, and services. So if a person earns a ph.d in software engineering. Its service( dollar value, wage) it produced in a year is part of the economy. The computer program( how much money earned, and how many unit it was sold , what is his contribution) are part of the national economy.
"Risk taking" is an cultural attribute that translates to the "dynamism" of the national economy. This means investing in capital( human, or capital goods) where it is most productive( ie: profitable).
"innovative" economy translates to how capitals are allocated toward high risk,high tech, new industries. Like VC investing.
"It is as if I kill your family, or something." I'm sorry but is this not the same phillip wong who proposed just that?
I distinctly remember your position of giving nukes to the enemies of America and her allies. Not only giving the nukes but using the nukes to kill the population of those countries.
I'm a little confused Comrade. What exactly is your position?
I never said I want to nuke the US. I recommended that giving nukes to every country in the world( both "allies", and "enemies" whatever that means) might be a good strategy to deter the greatest, and most powerful terrorist state in the world, USA from destroying the world.
"I distinctly remember your position of giving nukes to the enemies of America and her allies."
This is a sick joke, right? The US have no allies. The US rule the world using military power, media propaganda, and puppet governments. You think the Koreans, and the Japanese like Americans? Just look at the reaction between a FTA between Korea, and US in the Korea public. Japan consider the US forces in Japan an occupying force. The existential fear of Canadians that Canada become another state of America. For most of times, most of the allies in the middle east are puppets of the US. The US an imperial empire.
It is wrong to sell a country's national resources, if only a portion if at all goes in to uplifting the citizens standard of living and only the top govt. officials pocket the profit. It is wrong to sell the national resources if you are pushing communities and tribes out of the land to mine upon by sheer force. It is wrong to sell national resources to countries who will only benefit massively and keep the unfair capitalistic economy alive. It is wrong to sell a nation's resources if you are destroying ecosystems even if you are planting infrastructure and what not - because this will only benefit human beings. DO NOT tell me this does not happen. Don't you see a problem with the blatantly inherent self-indulgence in human beings thinking that economy should grow, standard of living should increase --> it all leads to a damaging a deteriorating and fragile ecosystem, in the name of perpetual growth economy, jobs and food for every(human)one. Capitalism can work - for a blink of an eye. 300 years is nothing compared to the billions of years evolution has taken to get to this point. Or even compared to the millions of years it takes for fossil fuels (which power all capitalism) to get here. And we waste it both away in a matter of moments.. Keep creating your products and roads and cars and supermarkets and jobs.
If a country cannot exploit its national resources, is it really wealth? Wealth are the products, and services consumed within a country. If Congo have a lot of oil, and they can 't use it in producing goods, and services. What good is it?
I think your example indicates not so much the bad of capitalism, but the bad of corrupted governments setup by the west. It is a type of neo-colonialism where western governments bribe corrupt officials in foreign countries in the form of aid, and oil revenue.
@ phillip Wong
You write the following : "Capitalism can work. The problem with capitalism is western countries spend more than they have. Not a lot of people are creating values( products, and service). "
If it is just capitalism, u always end up with a non-productive collapsed society as infinite growth in a finite world is not possible.
Then further: here in Europe our more social free-market system is under pressure cause of the inferior low cost products flooding in (mostly illegally btw) from mainly China. Another problem is that our universities get flooded by Chinese and other immigrant students due to the fact that my gov. and therefore my taxes pay most of the tuition fees. (do mind only little of those manage to graduate though).
Our debts don't come from the fact we don't create value, cause we do. (and asian markets are solely based on copying that knowledge). But the immense debts are rooted in our humanism and liberal laws. For example, concerning this docu, every Roma family in Belgium gets unemployment money, child support money, etc. and those can't be taken away with people having children below 18. This is also why north africans and arabs massively flood in here and go breed like bunnies (as soon as u have a child born on Belgian soil you get regulated and can't be expelled anymore). The newest trend is north americans flooding in (which has a higher national debt than any third world country, go figure). All this, and this alone is what explains the massive government debts in most western EU nations, despite the fact that i now pay 56 %, YES U READ THAT RIGHT FIFTY SIX PERCENT of my wage, on taxes. However we got no people living on the streets or no people with no healthinsurance, so that beats the American capitalism in my view.
Or to say it all in a blunt way: something like BMW might have parts assembled cheaply in china, they still are and will be for long time to come, engineered here. And in the us their free capitalism got them Dodges and what not that no one wants to drive here as it's also crappy quality. Your pro capitalist rantings and explanations as to why the west is indebted make no sense at all. In fact u have no idea what you are blabbing about. Socialists make Porsches, capitalists make crappy Hummers. Better get you knowledge from books and an education rather than crappy internet fora! Greetings, Kris, Brussels, Belgium.
It is really baffling. This is a documentary about a uniquely European problem and you find it necessary to bash America, who has nothing to do with this situation at all.
Say what you will about America, we know how to assimilate different cultures into our society. It hasn't always been easy but we tend to get the job done.
No sir, the problem is not America's it is yours and I do wish you would quit whining about America and take a look in the mirror.
''Say what you will about America, we know how to assimilate different cultures into our society. It hasn't always been easy but we tend to get the job done.''
i beg to differ !
Well then tell me your differences. I will not belittle or mock you.
just by your choice of command & the generous offer to not ridicule my reply obviously gives me insight to your mindset regarding how the US is a beacon of light to the world, how perfectly the US assimilate (resistance is futile!) & 'got the job done' .well,if one sit's on the greener side it could be easy to believe that & those unthankful coloured people, that left blood to gain basic rights & the chance of equal education, would not let that assimilation happen as it was planned for them,i guess.
your multi-cultured america only exists on a piece of paper. it changed from open to social,cultural & economic segregation.
only a non affected person can deny that something isn't working.
please excuse me if i have misunderstood you.i would be glad to learn from my misconception.
Contrary to what you say dmxi, I do not think a multi-cultured America exists only on paper. To be blunt, America exists only because it is multicultural. We are not called the Great Melting Pot for no reason. We are a nation of immigrants and solely of immigrants. That of itself displays our national character.
Propagandized by the US media for nice PR. The US actions speak by itself.
There's that Party line I've been waiting for. Chairman Mao would be proud of you.
If I had a choice, I much prefer the nationalist government( now in Taiwan) to rule all of China.
You mean (gasp) a US ally? Sorry you've already nuked them.
by the way your tone you use with mr.wong is full of stereotypes! (comrade,little red book waving,etc............)
You know, Canada is thinking about nuking uncle Sam. In order to prevent this situation, the US better nuke Canada first. What do you think?
Please. Have at least some semblance of intelligence about yourself.
Let me get this straight. You called me a "communist" even when I said I am not. You suggest I am a fanatic that wants to nuke everyone in the US. You are obviously playing a childish mind game with me, so why should I take you seriously? You are a joker to me. I don 't response seriously because you are not being serious in the first place. Now, got back to playing your little delusional mind games where "communists" Chinese are trying to take over the world...lol What a joke.
Wait a minute Phillip. YOU are the one who said he wished to nuke the US not me. All that needs to be done is check your comments.
if that were true & just by demagogic balance,the phenomenon 'obama' should've been possible at least 60 years ago,but it wasn't due to obvious reasons like acceptance !to observers it seems more like letting cheap labour in so the master can rest his feet !without economic slavery the whole illusion would crumble on it's footsteps.
very much like rome!but when that happens i would find no satisfaction with sneering: ''i told you so!''
If by "if that were true" you are saying that America is not a nation of immigrants I will not respond to that absurdity.
I do find one thing curious though. It is you and not I who is speaking in racial stereotypes. Perhaps you are correct in one thing - one of us here is a racist.
you haven't understood my message,obviously !read again & come back to me when you have & then please explain to me how 'stereotyping' functions !maybe i'll learn something about absurdity?!
and your are free to implement silly accusations like rascist or anti-semitic when you feel insecure.
I didn't accuse anyone of being racist - you did. Also I am not the least bit insecure, after all, did I not ask you openly and I might add politely to state your differences.
Only an insecure person would respond to an invitation to discuss differences by lashing out with tired platitudes and tedious language.
excuse me...........WHAT?what are you rambling about?please tell me what problem you have with my views given in my comments, which you have clearly not understood or let's leave it at that,as you seem to be uptight & easily distracted .again.....read the comments & if you can't spot sarcasm ,i can't help you !
just two quotes that show that you contradict yourself:
''Perhaps you are correct in one thing - one of us here is a racist.''
''I didn't accuse anyone of being racist - you did.''
huh?????????
Here's a little story that may help to clear up your confusion. Now stay with me here but if you need me to slow down just let me know.
It's kind of like turkey hunting. When you want to catch a turkey you use a turkey call because only a turkey will respond to a turkey call. Now if you wish to catch a racist then you need to use a racist call. Well I used a racist call and guess what I caught. I didn't call you a racist, I said one of us was a racist. That was the call and it was you who answered to it.
Trapped like a fat rat I would say.
sir,you evade the discussion with infantile anecdotes which leads me to the conclusion that further conversation is futile.i wish you a pleasant whatever daytime you are just enjoying & wish you all the best for your future.
Sorry dmxi, we'll have to end it here. I find no pleasure in a battle of wits with an unarmed man.
how old are you ???
By looking at his comments, he said he has a son. His son is dating. So, my best guess to his age is a number between 40 to 60. This puts him growing up in the 50s to 70s where war mongering, communist containment, and the whole "US v.s them" mentality is typical.
Well if your guess is correct, then it would also put me among those who took to the streets in defiance of my government. That would mean I stopped an illegal war, brought down a President and forced my government to extend equal rights and equal protection for all citizens regardless of race, creed, or color. That ever cross your narrow mind?
From your references to Mao, communist, and those "little red" books, plus the fact that you grew up in the 50s, or 60s.. It makes perfect sense to me why you call me a "communist", or how I make "Mao pride" to insult me. If I hear a dog. Feels like a dog. It is probably a dog.
And that dog might just take a plug out of your a$$. My use of Red baiting was purely to mimic your America bashing. Of course that went right over your head. I was also mimicking dmxi's race baiting and that of course went way over his head.
In essence, I was giving both of you a taste of your own medicine. Sorry the irony was lost on the two of you.
In other words, you can 't respond with anything meaningful, so called me a "red commie" .... Do you really not see the stupidity in calling me a "commie"?.... I am the one here advocating free markets, and power of self-interest capitalism to left societies out of poverty.
Do you not see the stupidity in saying you want to kill people?
Lakhotason, are you here all day long? I honestly don 't think killing people are that bad if they are bad people to begin with.
And I suppose YOU get to decide who is good or who is bad. Kind of like a thermonuclear Santa Claus.
Lak, your turn to have someone wondering what you do all day long. lol
Thermonuclear Santa Claus...good one!
az
Well the past few days I've been testing my portable solar system and next week I'll be using it in the wilderness when some friends and I try to locate the Imnaha wolf pack.
What a lazy, worthless American I am.
Wow! super. Will you ever make a presentation of your journeys, photos, film clips...ect...do you have a web site?
az
Let's see. The answers to your questions are no, no, no, and no.
I do what I do for the sheer enjoyment of it. Otherwise it would become a job. God forbid.
While travelling in my car through Mexico and Guatemala 3 winters ago, i took along a series of portraits of Africa i had enlarged and painted over. I distributed these 12"x 36" photographs for free to several hostels and to people i met along the way. It wasn't a job, it wasn't to make money, it was to share my love of art.
Now i know that this old man from Burkina Faso, this vibrant woman
from Ghana, this young beautiful lady from Mali is on a wall somewhere looking straight into the eyes of many many people.
By the way all these photographs were taken with the acceptance of the people.
If any of you would wish to receive one, i have a few more to give away...tell me why and i will send you one.
az
Oh I give my stuff away too. I even traded 10 photos for a week's stay in a hostel in Arizona on my last trip.
Photographing people on the street is always a tricky thing for me. I always feel I'm stealing something from them. I don't want to ask permission because their knowledge of the action changes the picture.
Let me think about it and maybe we can swap photos.
I would think that for every piece of work I sell, I must give away 5. It's easy enough to be strict with the adults but when some sticky little kid comes over with a handful of change it all goes wrong for me. Can't resist them. I rarely keep anything I make, I find a finished thing gets between me and the next one. Also like to leave little dolls in trees at the park and watching to see if anyone is sneaky enough to take them. Thrill a minute, my life! Don't worry about taking photos on the street, they should be flattered :)
The fact that i travelled very slowly, 6months each time (twice) through part of West Africa (where the photographs were taken) many of those photographs were taken while staying with people.
I like to carry balloons, i blow them with water and play soccer with kids in the street, great fun especially when they blow on someone's foot.
One of my grand pleasure is when i get to talk with an old man and he accepts having his picture taken afterwards. They don't know how to fake a smile with "cheese", they are way too natural for that.
az
Nothing worse than a fake smile, they always end up too cheesy. I like a good honest face, don't really like makeup that much. Do love tattoos though, and decorative scarring on dark skin. Very beautiful :)
I just can't sell my photographs. It would be like selling my soul. The owner of the hostel threatened to toss me out if I didn't take the deal and let him give me back the money I had paid to stay there. You keep giving away your work dewflirt. That's the thing to do. I'm proud of you. I'll let the Red Hot Chili Peppers speak for me -
"Give it away, give it away, give it away now."
We're getting a little far afield from subject of the documentary.
That's a wonderful way to do business, people value things differently and you're pictures were worth that to him. Just watching my 17 yo daughter plodding through her college work and it occurred to me that you and Az would be very useful. You do photography, Az for her french and who shall be for philosophy ?
Don't ask me about philosophy. I have no respect for philosophy. Az is a photographer too. Can you say "governess"?
Actually my girl seems to have taken to philosophy like a duck to water, but then to her it is just a new way to argue! I like Az too much for that, maybe finishing school would be better. My posh granddad used to say that children should be seen and not heard and should not speak unless spoken to. Don't think he meant me but I am beginning to see his point!
You know, this conversation would fit right in with "Everything is a Remix". I don't claim copyright on my photographs nor do I watermark them. Any one is free to use them for his own purpose.
same here...although i have done exhibitions where i sold photographs. When i first presented the series of Africa in Montreal, there were 40 on the walls and none had a price on the night of the vernissage. A woman wanted to buy three and i couldn't get my head wrapped around a price. My whole family was there going come on come on...So i said 300 each, she said ok. I thought three hundred because it represented a perfect triangle. And it paid for the 40 mirrors that were hanging between each photos...and the wine!
az
The artists here might consider finding some way to 'give away' their art to Romas so that they may sell it instead of having to steal what others have labored for. Maybe, a grass roots foundation?
I have a vision( or objective) of how I want the world to be, and steps I need to take to lead me to my vision.
Your vision appears to be kill the people you don't agree with. That's not a vision, that's a nightmare.
What you should be doing less is trying to be an internet warrior online 24/7. You should try volunteering, and better the world the right way. Seriously, you are here 24/7. That is no healthy.
Says who? Are you scientifically published on that?
lol
az
No, I spend a fair amount of time here when I am at home but then I'm away from home as much as I am here. I just spent two hours
walking in a windstorm and loving every second of it. What have you been doing the past two hours, working for someone who's telling you to do this and do that? That really, really no healthy.
I hope you reread this thread and realize how your message comes across.
Hitler had a vision similar to what you are saying here.
az
Where do you get that it is a fact that I grew up in the 50's or 60's. I never said that.
Look, buddy, don 't blame me for the ****** state of your welfare countries, and your lack of economic know how. The ****** state of EU countries are due to the fact there is a common currency. Obviously, Germany benefited, while Greece did not in the last 10 years. Also, the social democratic states in Europe was never going to be sustainable. Even Germany, and France( the strongest of the European countries) have high debt to GDP ratio. Why? It is not because of cheap Chinese products, but because your countries save so little.
You said "Asian markets like to copy". So, Germany, and France did not copy anyone? Don 't forget, the industrial revolution began in England, and was later spread( ie: copy) by the the Germans, and French. So, maybe you want to say Asians are not creative, never mind the fact that China was the largest, and most advanced economy for the last 18 of 20 centuries until England had their industrial revolution for sometime. China is still a developing country, but if you compare more developed east Asian economies: S Korea, Japan, Taiwan, or the "tigers" they are very innovative. Obviously much more so than any equivalent European state. Europeans only get to dominate in areas where Asians were prevented from competing. While Europe expand their economies using debt, and consumption; more advanced East Asian countries expending production, and market shares all over the world.
I don 't know about European higher education, but Chinese national in the US have to pay full tuition. That 's equivalent to about 50,000 per years for a private undergraduate education at USC. They are not using any tax payer money at all.
'For anyone to accrue wealth, someone else has to suffer. It's like a game of musical chairs, and when the music stops, someone's left out in the cold. That's the nature of the beast.'
No thats just nature. The plant will not grow completely because it will be eaten, the rabit will serve the fox that is on his turn shot by a man who on his turn will host some desease etc. everything feeds on everything. It's normal, I used to live a lott in nature. It is normal, not a problem.
we should live like gypsies? buy some scrap metal or take it and sell it for some profit. buy some flowers and sell them for some profit.
with profit buy something bigger and sell for a bigger profit and so on. Well that is the system that is called our capitalist economy... But because some companies do bad things every person who buys and sells something is evil.
If that same mentality we can conclude that all gypsies must be evil since there are even a lott who do bad things.
About your respect for 'street genius' I hope you will experience some 'street genius' soon. And I'm really curious untill when you will respect it. Also if someone jumps you in a dark alley and is so smart to cut your throat so you don't witness you will be a 'fan' of his smartness?
dob, thanks for taking aim at some of the more ridiculous assertions and embedded assumptions. Good job.
@fonbindelhofas Totally agree with you...their way of life doesn't fit with our way of life...for example in the city i live the local counselor had built apartment's for them, but in one year they burnt them down and brought animals in the flats to live with them.
the problem with no easy answers, and no easy escape goats, i live in France for some years now and i see roma people alot, mainly at the roadsides, w8ing for red lights to "clean" car windows, and there are alot of posible honest work, poor people from Africa and other countys are doing just fine, gardening, cleaning, construction... whatever but work and opportunities are there... its just i havent heard of a single roma person working any of those jobs. dont get me wrong, i love every single human being, but the reason of poverty is roma people themselfs. the old way of life is not posible anymore, evolve or perish:( thats the truth of nature. they MUST change theyr culture, not nececery to western standarts, but change must happen...
p.s. have u seen any garden or greenhouse in the slums? food dosnt fall from sky:/
I'm from romania and i'm sorry but i don't think deporting them back here would solve anything...nobody likes them here either...education is what could save these people in my opinion...not pushing them around from one country to another
All governments are starting to feel the pressure and are beginning to break down. (too many people and not enough stuff ect.) Theres no solution but we still have to try...
I must say, that while I am frequently appalled with some European attitudes on Eastern Europeans (I live in Switzerland), the fact that the Roma are living on illegal land for illegal amounts of time fully justifies deportation in my eyes. I don't see why it should be so controversial that Sarkozy decided to enforce an already standing law.
messed up.
You have seen what houses they have in Romania , palaces they construct.
I hope all Western countries close the doors on these types of people. Your country sucks? Too bad. Change it yourself. Then you can have your own place in the world. Don't come to the West whining, begging, stealing. Fkn bums.
I guess your ancestors are at least colonialist or maybe nazi? They did the robing and mass murders of entire continents so that you can now live in a "wealthy western country" and blame the Roma people.
@drinker69
with that attitude we never would have settled North America many of the settlers were escaping persecution and looking for a better life. while i don't fully understand their plight or their effect (negative or positive) on the areas they settle. i would not make a sweeping claim about an entire people based on one documentary.
@ over the edge
Yes, the settlers got better life's and escaped persecution of the old world in America, and the result of that was almost total extermination of the native people of America. Immigration isn't always as good as it seems, huh?
Take a closer look. These people don't give two unflushed sh*ts abut anything other than themselves. All this story does is show that in plain view. They rob, steal, lie, beg or if the adults can't do that they get the kids to. They don't give another 3 unflushed turds how they live at all. They only make out they are annoyed or suffering to get the governments handouts. Wherever the hell they are living that is. Watch in the documentary. One lady, who probably has 12 kids, throws some garbage right where she is standing. They live like pigs. You think if you or your family was interacting with these people they wouldn't have issues? Think again. They'd steal your sh*t and probably get violent if you confronted them. I've seen it in the UK by other gypsies. They want to live that way. Fine. Just don't expect the citizens of the countries they occupy to pay for it. How about they gather up all the gold teeth the adults have in one of these 'villages' and put in some decent plumbing so your f--kin kids don't get sick. Better yet. Turn them straight around and march them back to Romania. Its their problem.
you're blunt but straight to the point .I could never understand how moving into someone else's country is going to make things better esp when you're bringing down the community go home and use the energy you use here and make it better there .sure a few of you will die but it builds character plus you get to be buried next to grandma . Here on the west coast of America we have a "slight" infestation problem so I know very well the pain of having unwanted illegal immigrants.
And yet your ancestors were never immigrants? Get over yourself...
Icky Thump:
'Why don't you kick yourself out, you're an immigrant too !!' - Jack White of the White Stripes.
You might have an inkling of a point, when you mention moving won't (exactly) solve the problem... but when you use the word 'infestation' - thats too hard for me to resist my retort. Maybe all the 'west coast' flora and fauna said the same when your ancestors showed up for exploitation.
No my ancestors were slaves I dont know what they did before that , I do know that everybody is discriminated against . it was hard work 30 or 40 yrs ago just to be able to vote let alone to sit where you wanted . I dont like it when someone else comes in thru the back door expecting easy acceptance it dont work that way
This is funny, empathy comes out of self-interest in that fact fortunes can reverse itself. The aggressor becomes victim.
Did you get that from a fortune cookie?
No, but from the observation of a crying man begging before his legs are smashed by hammer. Your "fortune cookie" comment is not acceptable. Trust me, racism is a bad idea in so many ways. This also the reason no one want to hire whitey in silicon valley. Don 't expect empathy, or fairness when no one helps you.
nice 1