Paradise or Oblivion
Paradise or Oblivion is a documentary created by The Venus Project. This documentary details the root causes of the systemic value disorders and detrimental symptoms caused by our current established system.
This video presentation advocates a new socio-economic system, which is updated to present-day knowledge, featuring the life-long work of Social Engineer, Futurist, Inventor and Industrial Designer Jacque Fresco, which he calls a Resource-Based Economy.
The film details the need to outgrow the dated and inefficient methods of politics, law, business, or any other "establishment" notions of human affairs, and use the methods of science, combined with high technology, to provide for the needs of all the world's people.
It is not based on the opinions of the political and financial elite or on illusionary so-called democracies, but on maintaining a dynamic equilibrium with the planet that could ultimately provide abundance for all people.
Paradise or Oblivion, by The Venus Project, introduces the viewer to a more appropriate value system that would be required to enable this caring and holistic approach to benefit human civilization.
This alternative surpasses the need for a monetary-based, controlled, and scarcity-oriented environment, which we find ourselves in today.
This is NOT the "major motion picture" that The Venus Project is working towards but rather is a documentary to introduce the aims and proposals to new people. Related: Future By Design.
Directed by: Roxanne Meadows
Eating pie in the sky in your ivory tower. The bottleneck is coming and no earth-based science is going to stop it. In ~30 years, if you survive you and yours will be "living" in the worst Walking Dead episode you can think of, sans Walkers... probably. Try VHEMT if your scared.
The big fault: there is evil in people, you can change their circumstances but can you remove pride? Coveting?...see the problem is spiritual, is internal. Jesus called it sin, if you do not address man's inherent tendency toward evil, nothing will work.
Sin has its source, is Satan, once he is removed, we can leave peacefully.
It's in your Bible. Read it.
Well said. The evil that men do lives on and on. Greed and irresponsible use of science got H. superiors I & II and the archaic H. sapiens from sub-Saharan Africa to this point and there is not enough time left to suddenly get responsible. There are at least 5 giant garbage patches that get bigger every day to show that and that isn't even the worst of it. There's stuff in the ground that WILL EVENTUALLY break open an POW!!! The survivors of the bottleneck will just be traipsing through the woods one day in a couple hundred years and stumble across long forgotten wastes and POW!!! another bottleneck or extinction
This could ONLY work IF every child in every family was raised with these goals in mind. Even then, you would have non-conformists, people who will not accept this norm. Where is their place in this society? People who live on the street are not there for lack of money alone. The underlying issues need to be addressed. This would take at least 3 generations.
There is a flawed issue here. Carrying Capacities are not fixed. With planning, ingenuity, and much labor, they can be adjusted or even made abundant, you never need to worry about it in a lifetime. The Universe itself is expanding and what really needs to be done is to plug into the Master who we call God the Almighty. The wise men have been in awe with Creation and many discovered the Creator to safety. These wise people discover who they are and where they are going. What good will this Venus project accomplish if it can only address what has been made temporary by design? These people will be surprised to learn that once upon a time these technologies and perhaps even better than what people can accomplish in several lifetimes as the project proposes have existed long before mankind started as an improved primate species.
I pity the project planners who articulate this effort. I just hope that he acknowledges the Truth that he will soon leave as he came. There is nothing permanent here and that to live means to change. Like he has aged, so will all living things. The Earth, the Sun and much of the Universe all move and change and will one day leave as it arrived. Perhaps civilization will be reset too. And archaeological evidence point them out, scattered in the regions of the Earth. That would be an easy fate of this project too if it fails to learn the Truth.
Communism was also good in theory. Capitalism is flawed at least 90%, but this is how we humans roll. Only few humans can think of bigger picture, most people think just of themselves. This is how this capitalism thing is here to stay... till we ruin most of the nature and world with it.
The key and essential element is the capacity to create a socio-economic system which is sustainable in as much as it spans the generations. The message must be carried forward beyond our average life span. It would be very satisfying to reside in this Utopia, but there would be some human elements which would wish to defy it, for humanity is frail and inconsistent. So the work that has to be done consists of the robustity of our own psyches and the stability and resolution required to make the change to unity. Can this be possible. That is the question. Past examples, the Egyptian and the Roman empires - far more organised than is generally realised and yet they are gone into dust. And in an abundant and sustainable society the question of population will present itself and will have to be resolved in a humanitarian manner. A lovely concept which will be very difficult to sustain.
With humans in charge of this "new socio-economic system", it is bound to fail. Humans are bound to get cut up in greed and power. "Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely", whoever is in charge will mess it up. Just take a look at any autocratic government or country that tried socialism...
start with personal responsibility and minimize our individual carbon footprint. step 1.... GO VEGAN!
Start with population reduction or at least restriction for now.
Yes, that would be a good long-term objective. But what can we do right now to achieve it? For instance, we could start by making birth control available to all who want it. This would have an almost immediate impact in poorer countries and communities.
Its just so simple.
I think Birth control and Abortion should be as accessible as going to the drive thru at McDonald's. Also Euthanasia should be legalized for ALL people. Not just terminally ill Patients . At least at first anyway. Some people think this way of thinking is immoral, but tell me, what is more logical, thinning the Herd, or total extinction of Humans because of the unwillingness to check themselves as far as pollution and overpopulation is concerned. ? ( Thinning the Herd .??? .. which we have no problem with for living and breathing animals AFTER we Humans take away 'their' habitats )
Tell me ONE Thing that Humans have done good for the Planet that we didnt create ourselves. Yea. Like that !
. . . You can judge a Civilization . . by the way it treats its Animals.!
Who would you restrict first? Poor people in 3rd world countries do not consume resources. Do you think we should start out our population control with rich white men?
so, I commented but do not see any eviden ce that the comment was received -
Where should we start with population control? Poor people from 3rd world countries do not consume resources. Perhaps we should consider rich white men?
One thing I can not comprehend is how intelligent human beings think self destruction is a way to go...and the irony is that they believe in survival of the fittest. Explain yourself? Either you are an evolutionists or a Deep ecologist, but both of them do not make sense!
Excellent. Just a wonderful, rational, way to look at a problem and solve it for everyone. We never had to live the way we have been forced to live. We do not have to accept the current disastrous, environment destroying economic model. We CAN LEAVE.
In order to solve a problem, the true aspects or characteristics of that problem must be identified ...or you will be solving a problem that doesn't exist or doesn't really need solving.
Mr. Fresco has made a new larger problem, much like those he criticizes. He has made assumptions on your behalf: That most of you will want to live next to each other in apartments. That of course is required to make his system efficient.
The long ago reason people moved from the countryside agriculture economy to cities was for economic reasons. If crops failed (due to weather, insects, ...) but taxes still due or there wasn't enough land to support the grown children, divorce, or similar.
Who would want to live next to someone else if they could have more elbow room, their own garden, their own play and exercise area and equipment that someone else hasn't sweated on?
In Mr. Fresco's vision, while the fortunate ones have everything provided to them and they get to pursue whatever interests them, who are going to be the less fortunate ones who keep the system functioning? Things break. Any mechanism will need maintenance and/or repair.
Even if it is theoretically possible to automate most things, that would not happen immediately or even quickly since food doesn't magically arrive on the shelves without a fair amount of human input. Who is going to spend all those hours farming and fixing sewer pipes and fixing robots and fixing people in the hospitals he mentioned, when there is no incentive to do so?
In reality we have a resource based economy. It is just that it is controlled by nefarious bankster families for their own power and greed. How do you unwind that? How do you clear out their minions in government?
In order to accomplish Mr. Fresco's vision, "the people" would have to get off their lazy backsides to see to it themselves that incorruptible wise decent capable competent people were representing them. Which would require that same lazy minded public to see to it many of those good candidates were running for all offices from all political groups, so no matter who the lazy minded or bankster govt school major media indoctrinated propagandized voters voted for, someone good would get in. We have enough people these days to enable single term limits for all offices.
Simply by getting better representation, most of the problems caused by the banksters via their minions (all those mentioned in this documentary such as scarcity, war, etc.) would be eliminated in short order.
However, the incentive for some to find work in repairing what breaks and to grow food and to work in hospitals would remain. Nikola Tesla type energy technologies would be allowed to replace the polluting energy forced upon us by those bankster families which own those resources.
Covering the planet in solar cells and wind turbines that wear out is not that brilliant or sustainable either.
Many of the problems would be solved without creating new ones with Mr. Fresco's misinterpretations of what the cause of the problems are.
He has simply created a Globalist Socialist system in which the identification of the causes of problems and solutions to them are highly questionable and therefore ripe for failure or abuse by the nefarious types.
The problem is us. Too lazy minded, too self centered and selfish, to spend a very small amount of time we waste anyway, to see to it we have better representation. If we gathered together to review the majority of the population for good wise people to represent us in government and not give them the chance to turn bad; like being too long in government tends to cause... Then the banksters would not be able to prevent us from creating a much better world.
It is the banksters who cause war for power and profit. They encourage the sheikhs to keep propagandizing and emotionalizing their jihadis and same for the USA and Israel. They encourage friction and distrust where ever they can. Between USA and Russia for instance.
It is said that no one wins with war. Not true, the banksters win big. They are the cause of most of the problems we face, second only to our own lazy minds.
What @Jesper says is true, in that if you let your ego rule you, you will be distracted with your self centered selfish desires rather than what is really good and satisfying. It is difficult to wake up to any truth when you are controlled by your ego. It is your job to learn to control it rather than it you. When will you begin that necessary task?
Yes, egoism or solepsism is a wild beast that needs to be kept on a short leash. If we don't rein in the banksters and oligarchs like Trump, the next and maybe the last disaster is sure to happen, it's only a quetion of time.
100% on point.
i would always help fix minor things and help drive students to sports events at my kids school, in return they would keep my kids in aftercare for free, if i would run late picking them up. I believe in a barter system, but I believe its highly corruptable.
How's this:
2hrs outdoor work + 2hrs indoor work = 24hrs of shelter
1hr in work = 24hrs gas
1hr out work = 24hrs electricity...etc..
Geo, hurray! someone has finally addressed the problem as it really is. We have the power to control what's happening - we're ruled by the evil among us. We give them that power through complacency and laziness, and oblivion, and each generation seems to get worse (or easily brainwashed because they expect more to be handed more than they give). We let others, like the UN who do not hold our same desires for our nation, control our skies, poisoning us, weather warfare...and the push for socialism (everyone should have the same, even if they don't want to work). Complacency, like the frog in boiling water has ruined us until we wake up in a hell we never wanted. NO to Agenda 21 and 2030!
After reading all JAY's and NAY's in the comments; Work on dissolving your ego, THATS IT! All views of futures -like the one presented in this documentary- made up at whatever time in history are like fata morgana's, it will never be precisely what we predict or hope. Paradoxically we need it to get this kind of discussion going, but it doesn't really matter given the NOW, and NOW is all we have. What WE, and more precise, YOU (but i see you is me and me is you. We are ONE.) need is personal growth and dissolving the ever wanting EGO. Work on dissolving your ego first. So speak the truth, clear your blockages and set yourself free from fears and undermining detrimental values. You will become a conscious being, free of fear and the biggest potiential possible, i advice you to go for it! Nothing Else Matters, just you waking up. Once you're awake, you will wake up to your purpose and the universe will work with you and will do the rest, through you. Then, The rest will be history... You could start with reading Eckhart Tolle, A New Earth, and start with what's in your environment. Thinking BIG means thinking for YOURSELF - in a non-egoic way that paradoxically is hard to understand if you're not 'awake' to it yet.. Trust me, yourself and all of us.. OK, and a little hurry please, Work on it and we will be rewarded! :)
Nearly all the problems of the world could have been averted by simply placing the value of well-being above profit. Humanity always knew that and chose the Low road.
And thats because of the dominance of ego. The always wanting ego. See infinity and dissolve the ego. Read Eckhart Tolle.
How does vanity conform and integrate with this new way? Or the 6 other human pathologies?
Work on dissolving your ego. Read Eckhart Tolle.
Scarcity oriented enviornment ... really the stores are brimming with goods.Maybe in Venezuela or North Korea are there shortages but anywhere in the west is filled with goods. He lost me on the introduction!
Sell this to a tribesman or woman living in the Amazon. Spoken from a '1st plus' world. Probably wellmeaning but utterly unworkable.
This is totalitarianism. Basically forcing people to adapt a technological lifestyle.
New World Order propaganda.
It's a beautiful Utopia! You gotta be dumb as hell to fall for this stuff.
Go watch THX1138 if you want to see what these loony's utopia really looks like. Even if the movie is extremely dated, it's way more believable than this fantasy they are selling you.
This has been discussed to death. Humanity is incapable of saving itself. AI will save us.
AI will not save us. Why? It will put many humans who are jobless, on the street, and they will feel lost. Huge trends are now in the making. Perhaps we can feel even more worthless when machines can do our jobs. We're people who have either a work ethic, or lay as hell.
Really!
Blindgiest! This vision is a lovely fantasy but forgets how we got here to begin with!
It forgets the most basic characteristic of human nature - we can't handle power.
Yet if you removed every single member of our corrupt present governments right down to the grass roots, someone will see the gaping hole & think to themselves "I can fill that hole & get power & prestige & even fortune for myself!"
And to deny that basic fact is the other basic characteristic of human nature - naivety & stupidity.
Wow!
This doc got more arguments (posts) than a religious one, hot dog!
Now that's saying something!
But like the one up there said, you can lead a donkey to understanding, but, ya cant make him think. He will just argue all the reasons not to.
This is fantastic. There is only one piece missing - the people! With all of our strengths, weaknesses, virtues and vices... Unfortunately, I have an easy time to imagine utter destruction of humankind, while the scenario presented in the video is next to impossible to appear in my mind given human nature. Hope I'm just limited and wrong with all heart.
Yes, there is a basic flaw in the way the system has evolved: It gives free rein to egomaniacs, sociopaths and psychopaths such as Hitler and Stalin. And if we don't fix it pdq, humanity's chances of surviving to see the next century, let alone millennium are very slim indeed.
Everyone should just be given everything they need, and to be able to do everything they want. No work anymore, just thinking about what can be done better. This can be done with technology. This way it will become paradise, white science-fiction buildings everywhere and lots of fruit and water. Challenges and school for everyone. Hospitals everywhere it is needed. Everyone will become nice people this way and there will be no war anymore, just happy and smiling. :) :) :) ! ! !
Me n my brother talk about social structuring a lot n we both have a similar view. Right now their are fewer jobs than people and yet its seen as though everyone should have a job. But at the same time people we are automating masses of jobs with the technology to automate more. And employed or not people waste land in their gardens decorating them with flowers rather than growing food. Everyone's job should be in permaculture unless someone with the right aptitude decides they want to become a scientist or doctor. People who choose to make or have a difference in life... We'll call them professionals. We don't need governance we need administration supporting transit of excesses and deficiencies of certain food stocks to certain areas, transport, education and health care. Ever watched Eureka? If so why isn't there towns like that? Law enforcement could and should go back to Alfred the greats 'outlaw' method since it would largely be redundant and would be a communal effort guided by elected sheriffs. Fire fighting could also be communal as it has been in the past with certain people trained like home guard since technologies that actually exist but not used suppress fires well enough alone. Schooling for children could be done at home online with parental guidance with help from a professional when needed.
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Hope is what drives people in society to progress and this documentary is giving hope! We all need to stop thinking in FEAR, be open to new ideas, and most importantly share these ideas and possibilities with others.
what an inspiring movie. I loved it.
Venus project is just an dream, how an earth they put their megalomaniac theory to practice ..
Unfortunately I HAVE to agree :(
:) well drugs first, be it pot, alcohol or whatever you like. The use of/demand for/supply of would destroy the balance of a resource based economy, since the desire for them could be used for *trade*. It's not a long leap to see that sex can and will fall into the same category. Trade would be the deathnail of TVP. If they are restricted or denied, the outside world (the non TVP) will be happy to supply the market demand within the TVP, leading to bans of contact with the outside world. Hence I say the TVP model would have to be implemented all at once, so as not to be corrupted by anything from outisde it. On sex (trade aside), there are many reasons why adultery would not disappear. Crimes of passion, and jealous reprisals would therefore also not just go away. So the 'no need for law' in Jacques mind is an overly optimistic one as far as I can see, simply because of sex.
I've been meaning to write a fictional story about life in a TVP world for some time now. I love the idea, but it's got biiiiiig holes. I often wondered why they don't just get on with creating a realworld prototype, but thought experiments tend to lead me to the conclusion that it has to happen all at once all over the world or not at all - not grow out of city cells sprouting up. That ain't likely to happen in a world of property rights. I don't want to go on and on about the whys and wherefors, but if you are wondering how I came to my conclusions/opinion about all or nothing, two problematic concepts sprang to mind that topple TVP before it begins. Sex and drugs. I will happily debate these issues in the context of TVP, in the hope of getting past them, if anyone's interested.
much as I enjoyed the near Utopian life those same "two problematic concepts' came to me as well. Your thoughts?
It seem like Fresco is involved with the 2014 Olympic in Sochi by the look of their planned venues.
1i
The practicalities of his system seem a bit...illogical. He just said, "we must achieve a level of production so high, that scarcity ceases to exist", and I nearly fell out of my chair laughing.
I seen this before it;s not what you think it is. It;s the NEW WORLD ORDER putting us all into built up city's. For us that are left over from the new world orders plan to wipe out 95% of the people on the planet and the survivors will be put in to the new city's no you will not be aloud out when ever you feel like it only the rich will be outside the city's living the good life we will be scanned for every think we do say go or buy. SO WE WILL STILL BE SLAVES. And once more something you should all know most of the history of the world we have been told is a lie < they have been putting blinders on us all it's time to wake up stop watching the brainwashing tools of the media and watch out for tv shows and movies that have hidden agendas.The coming collapses of the world is being done on purpose LOOK THOUGH THE LIES AND WAKE UP
Can't wait for nature to take over, it's coming whether you like it or not. We can not keep living how we are, thank God. Come on America I reckon you guys will lead the way and F$%# up first. Well done guys only thing you've done that is right.
It's funny to me how some people make fun of ideas like this and call it "utopian" and "far-fetched". You never know if you don't even try.
What I think is utopian and far-fetched about it is believing that it would not simply revert back to what inspired it the moment fearless leader kicks the bucket.
No matter how hard it is, it is worth it and necessary.
I share the utopian views of the Venus Project and have dreamt of this since I was a child. However, as I matured, my optimism was replaced by cynicism. I don't believe culture can be easily changed. How would you convince a religious fundamentalist for whom terrorism is a way of life, or a war fighter who just wants to fight, that they should abandon their ways? How do you cause the wealthy elitists or political powermongers from pursuing their selfish ways? I continue to dream, as those of the Venus Project (and many others throughout the world) do, of the day when this reality is possible, but I fail to see how to get there from where we are. I'm sure that if all the worlds' military budgets were channeled into mutually beneficial programs we could make progress towards that end, but the world's culture does not easily change (if at all). The Venus Project needs to think less about how it could be, and think more about how it could be done. Jacque Fresco's Resource-Based Economy is a wonderful idea which cannot be accepted and supported by enough of the world's population to make it possible.
Brian Dady is right. All the things talked about are truly wonderful...wich is precisely why they can never be acheived on any significant scale. Humans are simply far too stupid, greedy and shortsighted to ever ALLOW such a world to exist
I don't think you should be cynical. I'm guessing you're in the Baby Boomer generation, or nearly so. A generation of dreamers and schemers, full of lofty pie-in-the-sky ideals impossible to realize. I think your parents' generation filled you with an ideal of transformation and possibility (they felt it was possible because they'd achieved much transformation of the society themselves) which simply went too far, the amount of change possible in a single generation is limited. This created disappointment, followed by cynicism. The end result is that after consuming the resources left by your parent's generation - in your optimistic phase - you began to devour the resources of generations to follow, out of cynicism. You leave behind a shattered civilization haunted by the ghosts of your dreams. So much more was possible, but I think it still is.
Truly, there was never good reason to despair. It's the turtle that wins the race. Slow and steady is the way forward. We took what was practical out of your dreams and advanced these things a long way (sexism, racism, the environment, etc). But missing from your dreams was any practical critique of power, it seems as if it's all pie-in-the-sky or bust. I guess, that abuses of power were not yet being felt around the kitchen table, so, it was not conceptualized fully, as it was not a severe, urgent concern.
The generation that follows mine, seems now to be trying to construct that practical critique ... necessity being the mother of invention. One hopes they get it right this time.
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The Rothschild's in Israel will never let this happen, greed is a disease that there is no cure for.
Yes, if we don't clip the wings of the Rothchilds, the Trumps and other egomaniacs by raising taxes on the super rich, humanity's chances of survival are very small indeed.
P29, where do you get all that pessimism from? We're living in the age of reason; humanity has never had it so good, or can you look back in histroy and say you'd prefer living in the Middle Ages, or in some other period in history?
Hope no one takes it as offence
Read some of your comments and suprised how far manny of you went from the main and so important subject in childish quarells. Im shure that all of us can realize that the society as it is today was not made and is still not today for a common man, but for a few with wealth and power. Wheather we embrace this system that is proposed by venus or some else, the definite point is that we need to find one, new one. Are you religious or not, whatever your belives are, as a human being you must have total discust about the whole world situation and yet you forget that we are the ones who empowered the few to make decidions in our behalf, and so is our responibility to make this wright, for us and for our children. Instead of making silly agruments, think, and make sugestions, talk constructively about making a change.
I'm not religious but if you read the Bible, things aint changed much. If you can understand it all, you will find some of the answers to todays problems.
"( ...) if you read the Bible (...) you will find some of the answers to todays problems. "
Such as?
Like.. we shouldn't be killing and raping each others kids. Because humans are far to stupid to figure that out on their own.. it's clearly the bible that taught us that.
Oh wait.. they did WHAT in the bible again?
I'm not religious but i do understand why we need it . >> It is the only book that says we are made in gods image therefore we are not just cattle to be micro chip;t and led to salter
We need to do make a quantumn leap in our intelligence to make it work.
...Is there a mute button in this blog?
"... Trolls will be Trolls ..." - Old Chinese proverb
@Placeboaddict,
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Grown azz man, please sit back down. Hush up now. Thank you.
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Your a coward, no man would write such trash, to someone he does not know. No, I do not represent TVP or TZM, but what you still have not grasped, is that these are idea's, that transcend just organizations, millions of people agree with me. The only people I refer to when i say ignorant, are people like you, don't get angry at the word, just means you have more to learn, as we all do. So, to whom it may apply, learn more about the world around you. Stop running in circles.
Best regards, Brainst0rm.
Who calls themselves grown azz man, if they don't drive a pick-up truck? Are you kidding me?
Look at how emotional you all get. Its too funny. You have nothing but praises and insults... sounds like a pretty good religion to me. You're a joke who can't recognize one kind of propaganda from another, god forbid you should ever think a thought of your own.
Why are all Americans so ******* stupid, like dogs chasing one stick after the next. Good luck with that brainstorm of yours... it's more likely a draft with a slight trickle.
I'm not ignorant, I'm objective - throwing yourself in the arms of a guy with a pretty garden, doesn't amount to much I'm sorry. Sure millions are with your r*tarded ***, but if right is in numbers, why are we even having this discussion.
Sit the back down now, stop wasting words.
YOUTUBE... Jacque Fresco Part 1 of 11 ....great!
This man is inspiring and his views are commendable. I hope our society and humanity can come to realize that more happiness, safety and prosperity will be gotten in peace not thru war.
check out on youtube- Jacque Fresco-Questions, Participation-Aug 7, 2011
Douglas Mallette
youtube our technical reality
"The problem i see in description of the Venus Project, is that there's no information at all. I'm sorry, but the guy has been working on it for 30 years, and has till only come up with some models and drawings. That just won't swing. Everyone is equal is all he has got, which obviously is not the case, otherwise you cannot govern, and i a society someone has to do so."
THIS IS ENTIRELY IGNORANT ASSUMPTIONS.
Very intriguing concept, but how do you account for human flaws such as a close mind, being unmotivated and/or lazy, greed (regardless of basic needs being met), malice, etc. and the big one, religion and differences of belief?
CHECK OUT THE VENUS PROJECT DOT COM FAQ
Thinking about this when I was 13 now I am 50 We need to get on with it
FINALLY
@DMT2012,
sure, I hope you'll have the courage and maturity to have an open mind, be able to take critical constructive criticism, and not judge others you don't know over the internet based on their opinions and statements. I was pointing out to you that telling people to research the "pineal gland" was unproductive among other things, you resorted to personal attacks. This has got to be annoying to anyone reading, watching us back and forth, that's why I'm gonna give it a rest. I've experienced plenty, and continue to, everyday, I'm a grown azz man BTW.
Sorry to SeeUat Videos for the crapst0rm, it happens when strong opinions fly around, I'll refrain from posting anymore, best regards.
In reference to "ungrip" the film available here on SeeUat Videos, I should clarify, from my suggestion of watching it, like all information, you have to filter alot of the speculation, my only reason for mentioning was, for the material that references, documents like your birth certificate, SSN, and other identifiers of you as a human, as the states proof of you as an asset, or property of the corporate state. It can explain in better detail than I have the patience for here, how this works. How the laws of the land infringe upon our basic human rights, and how we waiver them by accepting the system.
Most of the material in "ungrip" is also available, from Jordan Maxwell's documentary "The Naked Truth", and others by him, as the film maker of ungrip admits, alot of his material, is just re-iteration of some of jordan's work.
Hope this helps, best regards.
I warmed up a little to Jacque after checking his resume. The idea still strikes me as hot air, and as a bit of a designers tinkering project. His heart is in it though, and that makes it credible.
There's couple of major flaws in his perception of human nature, and the whole notion of resource based economy. He wouldn't have to guts, to get the population down to a sustainable number.We are already way above, what his ideas would be able to carry. Who and how are gonna be a bad guys in this scenario? The other noticeable idea he has, is that everybody is somehow absolutely equal and good. This is a bold statement about any animal.
Honestly, i wish this could be done. Trouble is, i wish santa would still bring me my exact wishes for Christmas. Take a lesson from Sci-Fi instead, when this rock is mined out, we continue to the next. Its much more realistic.
---> "(...) He wouldn't have to guts, to get the population down to a sustainable number.(...)"
- We don't have to control the population dramatically to sustain a global population. With general education and providing general welfare and entertainment automatically people have less children.
Evidence -> Check Europe's decreasing population. Check undeveloped countries' population.
---> "The other noticeable idea he has, is that everybody is somehow absolutely equal and good. This is a bold statement about any animal."
- Indeed everybody is equal. if you count everybody with a close genetical properties as human. In this case there is no difference left.
No one is above anybody. Differentiating people because of their bank account or language they speak is ridiculous.
There is no good or bad, he states it clearly. All is in relation to one culture's perspective. He speaks about sustainability.
Personally this is what I believe as well.
There is no good idea or bad idea. Or pure good or bad. If it helps surviving our race and keeps it prosper then that idea or technology is relevant and useful. That is the only important thing.
----> "Honestly, i wish this could be done. Trouble is, i wish santa would still bring me my exact wishes for Christmas. Take a lesson from Sci-Fi instead, when this rock is mined out, we continue to the next. Its much more realistic."
- This rock (Earth) is gonna be mined and left sooner or later. this is a fact. If not the human race is gonna be extinct. Fact as well.
But if you don't maintain this planet for a couple of hundred/ thousand years. The human (or later posthuman) race is going to be extinct sooner than it could leave this rock. (Take a lesson from sci-fi yourself as well)
So the only logical course of action is to apply a sort of Res. Based. Economy. If not Fresco's version than something similar.
New World Order for hippies.
america spent $288 million dollars on world war II. today that would be equivalent of 5 trillion. the iraq war over 3 trillion spent. we could focus our efforts and transform the entire world in 5 years if you think about the state of our production technology and develpmental capabilitys. if we look at the new ipad and imagine if each aspect of society was developed with the same advancement as a ipad we could free humanity and start to repair the environment this is what is possible. a RBE is the next step in evolution.
What's RBR?
@ProudinUS
The biggest thing that Dr. King did was to take the violence through frustration and turn it into meaningful change. In doing so, he allowed other members of the Afro-American communities to step forward and become leaders by being role models that are proud of their accomplishments, instead of sitting quietly in the background. I agree that it is the Rosa Parks that are the true heroes of the civil rights movement, but without Dr. King they would have been isolated acts of defiance instead of the momentum-building pushes that kept it going toward fruition.
I just think most of this film is ridiculous and I would not want to live in any of those monotonously modern cities that were modeled. Of course i believe in the humanistic visions and ideals in the film...ending greed, access to resources, end racism, poverty, war, etc...Of course that's the right direction we should be heading in. The film though, doesn't give hardly any specifics on how that can be achieved. The philosophy of humanism and resource abundance is repeated several times but even the simple question of what to do with all the old cities is not addressed. Matter of fact, the film states that refurbishing or updating old cities is not the approach we should take. Rather, we should build completely new cities. Where would the old ones go? How would we dispose of all that material? What about all of this abundance that we'd have? If you want a camera, you get a camera. Would we end up having the same or more trash if that were the case? What about regional individuality and personality. All the cities looked the same with slight variations. What about people who don't want to be artists, intellectuals, or scientists? There was just too much idealism without any specific explanation. On average, i think in pretty idealistic terms when i think of changes to the world. But, cities in my mind look nothing like this and the approach suggested by this film is a bit wacky.
good to hear your concerns TVP website has a FAQ with 107 questions with full answers to these concerns and others .
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I just think most of this film is ridiculous and I would not want to live in any of those monotonously modern cities that were modeled.
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beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I think they look just fine, but if you paid attention, you would have noticed Jacque mention that, his idea's and other details can be changed according to demand.
If you think the models presented are monotonous, I could also say that living in a plan square house is much more monotonous(the current standard). These structure have curves, and other details, mainly meant to be architecturally an improvement for bad weather, and structural integrity, among other reasons I may or may not be aware of.
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but even the simple question of what to do with all the old cities is not addressed.
Matter of fact, the film states that refurbishing or updating old cities is not the approach we should take. Rather, we should build completely new cities. Where would the old ones go? How would we dispose of all that material?
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yep, there not addressed, I think I remember him saying, it has to all be revamped, because the current city structures are crumbling, and are based on designs that are not sustainable. Still, I'd assume, that a lot of REUSE, and RECYCLING(of building materials) will occur, because this would be the most efficient and economical(resource economy, not money) practice, still this is one question that is not answered. The documentary is only 40 minutes long, do you expect all of the planets problems, and proposed solutions, to be explained in that amount of time. Its a utopian expectation. I wouldn't discount the whole film, because of a minor detail.
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What about regional individuality and personality. All the cities looked the same with slight variations. What about people who don't want to be artists, intellectuals, or scientists?
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Again, like many here, your not using your imagination. Certainly, white is the most reflective color against sunlight, and hence, a cooler living environment, so that is why all the structures are colored white(also other technologies that are attached to the outside of the buildings). Still I see no reason why the inside of the living quarters could not be customized. That should be enough to express your individuality. It is IMHO very lame in today's society to use your home's outside, as an expression of who you are, I think it is more important to be able to do that on the inside, where you actually live. Some people may disagree, so be it, this is not a real problem, compared to the real issues we face today.
About people who don't want to be artists, intellectuals, and scientists, those people can do anything that interests them, this should be an obvious answer, did you think something different? I think your just not able to imaging a world where your not subservient to the state, so you expect some form of limitation to be imposed to anyone who isn't a artist, scientist, or intellectual. Break out of the paradigm.
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There was just too much idealism without any specific explanation. On average, i think in pretty idealistic terms when i think of changes to the world. But, cities in my mind look nothing like this and the approach suggested by this film is a bit wacky.
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idealism, I think is when you expect a perfectly laid out plan, with just a documentary, again, I say, that is utopian. It has to start somewhere, with idea's, and when people can agree that this film, and others that advocate for a RBE, are correct and beneficial to the planet, and ourselves, then we can work on the technical details, without the limitation of our current monetary system.
Wacky, well, I'll leave that to you, as it's your opinion, and I can't really answer to it in any sensible way.
best regards, brainst0rm.
You put a lot of emphasis on the housing of this project??? That's the least of the problems, and not even that is half-way thought through.
The man who came up with this, is not an engineer, politician, poet, or god. He is a bloody designer drawing pictures. He still lives in his hippie hideout, trying to change the world.
I thought comments on a documentary like this, would reap some interesting comments. But i find it to be exactly as eccentric, has Christians doing telling everyone how the world works.
Is one both holistic and christian at the same time? In my honest opinion, it seems like a substitution for people marginally smart enough to see through the Santa/God-hoax, but not bright enough to understand the basic principles of the natural world (hint: its logical).
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The man who came up with this, is not an engineer, politician, poet, or god. He is a bloody designer drawing pictures. He still lives in his hippie hideout, trying to change the world.
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he certainly is skilled in engineering concepts and subjects, if you mean that he has no degree, maybe so, that changes nothing, and discounts nothing, argument here is null. This is a credential's attack, doesn't stand on it''s own two feet.
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I thought comments on a documentary like this, would reap some interesting comments. But i find it to be exactly as eccentric, has Christians doing telling everyone how the world works.
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Certainly your entitled to that opinion, but difference between christians, and science telling people how the world works is, one of these entities have reproducible data/evidence and one doesn't, and requires absolute faith.
IMHO, you may want to scroll down to some of my comments below, they have plenty of food for thought, that may be able to change your current world perspective.
First of all for most of your comments.
-- What????
To make any sort of statements is usually beneficent if you could support it with some facts/ theories or at least some logical theories.
---> bloody engineers do make drawings. You gonna be surprised they even "play" with computers to make digital drawings as well.
What do you think what was the Hoover Dam before they built it?
- Yes it was a Bloody drawing. The same with bridges, churches and space shuttles as well...
----> Housing is not a problem?
Where are you from? I mean which Planet?...
- Housing is indeed one of the biggest problem in this society.
Housing in general is directly connected to:
- Dept,- money - work - commuting - stress - pollution - energy consumption
- Basis of creating communities and related problems (crowd, ghettos etc)
- Directly connected to health issues. (damp, allergy, radioactivity, pollution, noise)
- One of the biggest factor in producing green house gases. (heating, commuting, electricity, construction)
I've been through two random fanboys before you, and you're also amazingly regurgitating the exact same views, as can be found in the FAQ.
Why are you even writing? You to, have no thoughts to call your own. Reading your own comment, what logical theories do you feel you provide? You are not even answering the question posed in my comments, only defending your hippie mate.
You say everyone is indeed equal? There's nothing in this doc or in the FAQ, on how the social structure will be executed in this new world(order). So please don't begin the nothing all over again. The population characteristics of current societies, can obviously not be compared to one so radically changed. More silly big thoughts.
Just link me the FAQ. Please.
PS. when we are headed of the planet, how many do you think will fit in the craft? The entire race? Let's see how total equality holds op :-)
Down hippies, Down! I'm out, and surely not coming back to this rats nest, at least other threads have hippies who can think independently.
" when we are headed of the planet, how many do you think will fit in the craft? The entire race? Let's see how total equality holds op :-)"
By the time our civilization reaches that technological level to leave the planet for a better world (or for a colony ship) there will be plenty of space for everyone to leave whoever wants to leave.
We are talking about thousands of years.
The problem is we are "stucked" here together for the next couple of hundred years. So we better work out something how the entire race can live together in peace.
And not because I'm a bloody hippy or something.
Because that is the only logical way of living to maximise the chances of survival.
Calling everyone a hippy whoever refuses to be extinct just does not make sense. Think about Albert Einstein, Carl Sagan, David Attenborough, Stephen Hawking etc.. They both share the same view about this, but clearly they were not hippies.
You know, I'm at a turning point in my life. For ten years I have tried to convince people that we are on a runaway train heading for disaster. That we needed to pull the emergency brake with everything we had. They wouldnt listen. People don't WANT to listen. They don't want to hear that we are on a collision course with the limits of our finite planet. I tried to explain to people that it's not money they need to live, but only food, water and oxygen. Nobody listens. So I'm planning of getting out of this society. I really don't want anything to do with the ongoing systematic destruction of our recources and genocide of animal species. Currently I'm learning how to live in harmony with nature, how to built a completely self-sustainable settlement, somewhere far far away from this civilisation. I'm learning how to live from the forest, as our ancestors did a long time ago. And, despite of what I have read somewhere in the comments, this is NOT difficult, or hard. It just has to be learned. Read books. Man, I'm just so tired of struggling, working my ass of for a minimum wage, which doesnt even pay for everything I need. The stress of diciding which bills to pay, as I cannot pay them all. This society of debt-slavery is just sickening to me I hate it with every fiber of my body. I'm going away, but before I do, I will go noticed. I will get as many loans and credit cards as I can, get as many debts as I can, just to screw them over. Because in my opinion, if there is anyone to blame, it's the financial institutes. And I know, that one person's debt isn't going to take them down one bit, but I hope many will follow me. Personally I don't think people will, because of the mass brain-washing they inflict on the people, but one cannot give op hope ;)
Minimalism ‘is’ the way to go. When you join a civilized group you give up certain rights and freedoms for services provided by division of labor, and when those services do not match those rights and freedoms you sacrificed, it is time to move on.
I find your train of thought very valid, however if we have many people splitting like that people that don't have their needs met will invade and kill to get what their missing. I completely understand and go through the exact same situations myself and I ponder those options too.
Hey man, thanks for sharing your comments. There are a lot of people who feel exactly the same way. I'm waiting for the day when people will get together and build entire communities outside of the current system. Everyone may start from scratch, though at least as truly free human beings. Until then, just know that there are many many more who are in the situation you're in and we're all spiritually connected. Everyone feels each other's pain. It's more than time that we all get together to DO SOMETHING. Once people start getting up their feet to organize, collaborate and help each other, nobody will need to be reliant on living in the current system. Hope dies last and the time will come soon when all this nonsense that people call lives will end. Future generations will look back and pity the past-world for the way supposed 'leaders' led an entire civilization to the brink of oblivion. Changes for the better are coming, guaranteed!!!
your feelings are shared by many frizzle, thanks for your comment, it seems to come straight from the heart. One suggestion before you decide to get off the grid, certainly screwing over the financial institutions sounds like the least you could do for the misery they cause humanity, but something even more powerful that you could do, also.
At this point, it sounds like you don't have alot to lose (kids?, other dependants) I mean this in the mental state sense, as well as the family you owe a responsibility to sense. We've all got lots to lose, but objects/possessions don't make us who we are, they don't define us(just a point I like to make). So I was thinking, before you embark, you could first sustain a little longer, and get as many family, friends, etc, etc to join you.
I say this because one, doing this as a group unit, garners more attention. This is good, the news media can't ignore(black out) masses of people looking for self sustenance and actual independence from a structured state, instead a self helping and cooperating in a community, without the use of MONEY.
Another reason, and the most important, of why I suggest you get as many people as you can to join you, is because, you'll need the help, surviving on your own, anywhere in the world, is very difficult.
I'll admit though, your idea of disconnecting from the grid could work(temporarily), but their are holes. One big issue with this is, land ownership in today's world society, you'll have to spot out and locate a position on the map, where no state, or entity has ownership of land you propose to settle on, otherwise, prepare to be assaulted, our modern day planet requires that you have documentation of all your possessions, as well as a paper that says, that the state, or whoever is the law maker of the land says you can settle on said land. Of-course, an option is to prepare your self and colony group with weapons to defend yourselves with. You know what the likely outcome would be though, you'd be murdered. If your peaceful, and have a non-violent approach, you'll be removed by force anyway, so one way or another, this idea of going off the grid "COMPLETELY" is very difficult to achieve, and this is assuming you have a very large group. Our current power structure, or elites who control our society, among other things, will not allow this. WE THE PEOPLE, give the elites, and the laws, and the conditions they create, the power to do so. The only way out is for the overwhelming majority of the population worldwide to resist, refuse, and reject the system that empower our owners. The first step would be, for the majority of humans to ungrip the idea of personal ownership of "things" or items, and most importantly, abandon/boycott use of MONEY(destroy the banking industrial complex). Then, and only then could removing yourself from the grid be possible(it may work for a little while, but eventually, someone will have an interest in the land you settle in, and take it, instead of sharing it, and using it together).
This is my 2 cents.
Caption: Failed in society: blame everyone, get out quick.
Sure living off the fat of the land isn't hard. But neither is getting a grip, and getting a better job. I'm pretty sure you'll find a way to make it difficult, or at least blame bad weather.
Loser. Sorry but... no not really.
Don't forget to activate your pineal gland on your way out.
this comment is so sick, and I hear it over and over by people just like you, that are stuck in the matrix, and can't get out mentally. He did not fail in society, the society failed him. Yes, he should blame everyone, or atleast people such as yourself, that can't actually visualize a concept, or even understands how your current world functions, it's inefficiencies, and it's impending collapse. This is not fear mongering, this is the state of times right now. From the looks of it, your doing just fine in this system, so why would you think it needs changing, but it's your ignorance, or what you don't see that makes many want to leave and live on their own, they feel ostracized by society, they feel stratified and abused by the Patriarchal(or Matriarcal) domination, .
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Sure living off the fat of the land isn't hard. But neither is getting a grip, and getting a better job. I'm pretty sure you'll find a way to make it difficult, or at least blame bad weather.
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Theirs too many false here, where to start, living off the land is not easy, you need knowledge about farming, as well as technology to assist in that process, do you even know what it takes nowadays to feed the enormous population in the U.S., it's another unsustainable system, that will collapse, and many undeserving(no one is) victims will perish from starvation, unless we can solve the issue before it reaches critical mass, and then failure.
Getting a better job involves going to school, and that involves getting new loans, did you not read, he said he doesn't have enough to pay his current bills. How are you so sure, that a higher paying job will be available for him, that's what I mean by ignorance. You expect that everyone person that is part of the population will have an opportunity at a high paying job, you do not realize, the majority are unskilled laborers, or even worse, laborers with plenty of skills, but over competition in their area for their particular skill, this leaves them with very low chances of getting a job. That's the way this system works for most, and that is, its a lottery. It all depends on your locality, and population size, as well as the economic systems current condition. I should add, the important bit here is, if the COST OF LIVING where affordable, meaning someone who works minimum wage could live under a roof, and feed them selves, you wouldn't hear what you claim is, complaining. This complaining is the least someone who is poor or struggling could do to let people know, this system doesn't work.
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Don't forget to activate your pineal gland on your way out.
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I see you've jumped the bandwagon of shroom fans here at SeeUat Videos, sure, get high, it'll solve frizzle's problem real soon(*sarcasm).
I'll try and stop by every couple days and respond to questions and concerns. As you know, we all need money to sustain(work), but maybe one day, I can do something that actually matters. If you've watched the film, and you feel comfortable answering people's questions, please register, and post responses, as this helps the movement. Thanks.
@mantid, @Adam Young
you expect every one of your concerns to be answered without putting in any effort at all. I'm not being condescending, just my observation, from your questions.
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would you scrub toilets, clean windows, shovel garbage or work in a noisy factory for free every day ? cause somebodies gonna have to.
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The assumption is, "cause somebodies gonna have to.", and this is where your wrong. People have to in our current system because MONEY would have to be invested to automate this task to machines, and develop a system, where all waste is aggregated and dealt with in an efficient and sustainable way. So instead of invest in *new technologies to facilitate waste disposal, we use the same infrastructure that is crumbling, and hasn't been updated in nearly 100 years depending on the municipality. Point here is, the monetary system is the stagnater here, no one would have to, if we used our technology for good, instead of destruction and entertainment.
About the noise, it costs the manufacturer of equipment and the company employing you more MONEY to invest in silent equipment, so they cut corners, and you go deaf after many years as a result. This loss of hearing was the result of your employer valuing his bottom line more than your hearing.
scrub toilets, clean windows, shovel garbage, can all be automated by machines, so that you as a human being can actually use your time, life, brain, resources, everything.... for something you actually have an interest in. Someones life should not be wasted shoveling garbage, that shows a lack progress by our society, and you should NOT accept it. Instead you/we all should look for solutions, or atleast if your not skilled in solving that problem, you may want to advocate for changes, in anyway you can.
I think the problem is, you both aren't thinking in terms of the future, your asking questions that pertain to right now, and the idea's presented in this film, and others, assume, that a RBE would be in effect. Otherwise, these idea's are impossible under the monetary system.
Are there holes/problems in some of these idea's, yes, but their only problems in the context of the monetary system, it is a choke hold, and we can't breath.
To answer your question directly, the answer is YES, I definitely would, ofcourse, I'd assume some things, first, I'd participate, especially if it's needed during the transition to machines doing this meaningless task. You make it sound though as if, I'd be working long hours, this is not the case, because since their is no wage being payed, I am not obligated to work extended hours, (I am not a WAGE SLAVE) and or multiple days. A rotation system can be developed, so that you can shovel garbage only once a week(if enough people participate, this could turn into just 1 visit a month). I'd put in 10 hours no problem. I must note though, a full transition would take all my lifetime to complete(assuming this, I have no data of course), so I'd be doing this for the sake of humanity surviving, and being able to not only self sustain, and have our needs met, but thrive. I'd still have plenty of time to do things that interest me. Bottom line here is, volunteerism.
The transitional period will/would be the most difficult, and that will be the test of all time.
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It seems as if no one will address those problems, and those very important problems.
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this comment isn't helpful, it seems antagonist, nonetheless, I tried in the time I have to answer the questions, not as well as I could, but good enough.
good day sirs
-delete this, it was a bad reply-
And another interesting thing to point out: The collective brain (or w/e it is called) However you look at the system, human civilization is somewhat a Hive Mind itself, comparable to that of ants. (there has been a new BBC Horizon Doc on this issue) Collective thinking changes society as a whole, and every individual act as nothing more than a signal of ''yes'' or ''no'' on every issue. Just like a computer program of 1 or 0. Or a neural input in the brain.
If you see life and society this way, that alone is a reason why every one person's choice counts, and every one person's conviction must be followed until the end. The collective mind will always choose the path that has the higher number of people following it. I'm not talking about the ''democracy institution'' but it's mere nature's way of proceeding with this choice making system in the brain (or neural net / massive parallel computing) that somehow is what ''democracy'' should look like.
Point is:
Don't be afraid to lose your vote, but prepare to do whatever it takes to prove your point. Convincing others however is not part of the plan, as it often just polarizes people with different opinions. Respect them for making their choices, but do what you got to do to make your opinion count in a ballot or in the streets or simply in the grocery. If everyone keeps that in mind, it would already be a first step towards a better world no ? :P
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And another interesting thing to point out: The collective brain (or w/e it is called) However you look at the system, human civilization is somewhat a Hive Mind itself, comparable to that of ants. (there has been a new BBC Horizon Doc on this issue) Collective thinking changes society as a whole, and every individual act as nothing more than a signal of ''yes'' or ''no'' on every issue. Just like a computer program of 1 or 0. Or a neural input in the brain.
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I like your analysis, something I've thought about my self right here.
Everyone's convictions count, unless those convictions are unfounded, and irrationally arrived at. These convictions for many people are learned as part of the development process of the human. So, if the human had a bad experience with say a lizard, or roaches, that human will be mentally predisposed(severity varies), and hate lizards or roaches their whole live's (*unless their desensitized and/or re-educated, that the lizard and roach are harmless*). Their disposition may be, kill all lizards, or kill all roaches, because this is the conviction they have in their hearts, but it doesn't mean it's logical.
I like lizards, like little t-rex juniors : - )
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Convincing others however is not part of the plan, as it often just polarizes people with different opinions.
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yes, it polarizes, but someone has to have sustainability in mind, as well as the agenda of betterment of humanity as a whole, not in fractions. The idea's I'm talking about advocate the opposite of polarization, unification. So ultimately, IMHO, the ones causing polarization are.......... let's not point fingers : - ), that definitely causes polarization. Anyway, it goes both ways, but if that human is open minded, than no polarization should occur. Just the physically/mentally exhausting process of *withdrwal, that is homeostasis being challenged.
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Respect them for making their choices, but do what you got to do to make your opinion count in a ballot or in the streets or simply in the grocery. If everyone keeps that in mind, it would already be a first step towards a better world no ?
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respect them, absolutely, why not, but the problem currently is that popular belief and society is based on a corrupt system(inherently, because it's artificial), so most the information they receive is also corrupt, hence everyone who is force to take part manifest it, some more than others. The vote sounds like an great idea, and indeed, eventually, this democracy could actually function, but it desperately needs an informed public. Otherwise, the public will vote for things that detriment themselves.
Perfect example is the RNC primaries in U.S.A., the American people are voting for a ken doll, they believe anything and everything, and don't use their critical thinking facilities (IMHO). Same for the current president, it was popular culture that got him in, but most that voted, did ignorantly(I mean this word in a neutral way, as in they where not informed enough to make the choice, but they did anyway). Nonetheless, it's all an illusion to make you think your indeed witnessing democracy, but this is a fallacy.
I like what your posting, because I can tell, your actually thinking, not just commenting. : - )
hey hey, that was some good points you make there, and thanks for the compliment ^^.
And yeh, Critical mass does involve followers, in both sides of any stance on any subject. Of course the system we live in does perpetrate this constant feed of what you call corrupt information or misinformation or this ''system based / propaganda info that hooks people within said system''. Somehow people need to snap out of that. Of course, just spreading it to families and cells is quite slow indeed. And media will help, and here's where internet and social media come in handy. Leaderless people fighting for a goal and idea. I do not know if what happened in Egypt ended in a success for what i'm trying to point out, but : Is it the first time a massive movement came out with no one really taking lead in the movement?
Facebook/Twitter or Internet in general *as medium of communication* may yet play more a bigger role in connecting what i associate with this collective mind idea. At least, I perceive it as a symptom or manifestation of the idea.
Another thing: Slactivism, I would like to know what you or anyone think about slactivism. It might be a first step in becoming ''activist'' or awared citizen, but seeing the Kony 2012 campaign going massive was quite impressive (though i'm not fan of that) then the following week it completely came crashing down and 2 weeks later it is forgotten and almost no one talks about it anymore (?). But inherently some people just don't do much about that afterwards and it's difficult to change that. I don't know if in the end that is something killing movements or something that actually helps
Meh, thing is, being aware like you are or myself (or many here on SeeUat Videos) or to discuss about issues like sustainability and the Venus Project requires lots of information gathering. And that comes with a curiosity and long thought process that eventually brought us (maybe) to find SeeUat Videos from this massive thing called the Internet and to click play on this video. I just believe that we need to encourage as many people to follow this thought process through their own initiative, guide them and let them decide to watch this video instead of just: Dude, you gotta watch this video, turn off your bloody ''FOX News/any whatever crap is on TV''. They might watch it, and then don't give a crap because they weren't ready... no?
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Concerning the lizard part, nice way to put it, but i think even though their convictions are irrationnal, it is a slippery slope as to judge who's conviction is irrational or who's isn't. Wouldn't the majority of the population (theoretically) overwhelm the few who are irrational? The problem in this system we live in is that it isn't real democracy* (again referring to the neural idea of democracy and not the political structure and institution) since these few people who have this ''irrational'' have somewhat a large priority (lobby and power of influence and possibility to silence other views) IMO that's the core corruption in our system.
Maybe what is needed (radical suggestion here) is to silence MEDIA institutions (destroy the illusion of credibility given to ''specialists'' and basic psychological mind influencing tactics used by Media) (Yes this suggestion does mean BA'N'NING all form of advertisement) replacing it by citizen journalism or community and consumer reviews... yet Propagating a way to process this information (which would mean the thought process i talked about above---which in brief: open-mindedness caused consequently by thorough critical thinking -or anything similar-)
For example: Setting up a platform or video codec so that every person in this world with a video cam can upload whatever movie he makes and have an equal share of being viewed (the initial Youtube) and let the community decide what is worth watching from what's not.
IS MORE VALUABLE than spreading one story or video.
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Ok ok,
I know i don't have much structure in what i wrote here, so just think of it as food for thought. But I'd like feedback on those ideas though ^^.
structure is fine my friend, no problem, I can grasp your idea's without any difficulty on my end.
About "Slactivism", yes this is the phenomena I see when people donate to charity, that whole, I've made multi-billion's every year exploiting a people, or resource, or a monopoly, and so to enhance their public image, and maybe even help their inner conscience, they donate millions(only a small % of their income) to feel better. (i.e. microsoft)
You can apply the same scenario to smaller scale income bracket people. Somewhere in their head though, I don't know if they realize, charity is NOT A SOLUTION, but merely a bandage for a gaping bleeding wound, that requires stitches, and healing.
I'd say though, that most activists qualify for the label, slactavist, as being obligated to take part in the monetary system for survival, there is never enough time to fully immerse yourself in campaigning your cause. Hence, when you say, they lose interest, it makes sense, because they have higher(in their mind, and the societies) priorities.
Those priorities are usually related to making more money.
About the egypt/syria fiasco, I honestly don't know how that would have ended, their's a few scenario's that play out in my mind, of the three, only one looks good. Anyway though, because of the intervention by the U.S.A., we'll never know how they would have handled their revolution(maybe another one could happen in the future, who know's?).
One point I'd like to put out there, from some of what I've gathered on US foreign policy thus far (history), if we invade, and or assist/intervene, it usually means, we want access, and acquisition of a local resource. In today's age, that is black gold(petrol). It's usually not for humanitarian reasons, if that we're the case, their are numerous examples of human right's violations all over the world, especially in africa, but not a peep or sign of interest by U.S. policy makers, congress, and/or other institutions/states.
Reason why the Kony 2012 propaganda failed, was because many the very african people, as well as african U.S. citizens we're vehemently against an invasion of their country. Especially since the guy(antagonist, villain) was conveniently missing, no one knows where he is, perfect scapegoat, one that doesn't exist, so no verification needed.
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Meh, thing is, being aware like you are or myself (or many here on SeeUat Videos) or to discuss about issues like sustainability and the Venus Project requires lots of information gathering. And that comes with a curiosity and long thought process that eventually brought us (maybe) to find SeeUat Videos from this massive thing called the Internet and to click play on this video. I just believe that we need to encourage as many people to follow this thought process through their own initiative, guide them and let them decide to watch this video instead of just: Dude, you gotta watch this video, turn off your bloody ''FOX News/any whatever crap is on TV''. They might watch it, and then don't give a crap because they weren't ready... no?
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I agree completely, it is an information vector like any other, and is limited in that only people who look for it, will follow the path, and eventually, will find it. Certainly, the mainstream media has an upper hand in this information battle(their clearly winning). Hence I can see why, Jacque Fresco, want's to take this mainstream, otherwise, these idea's may never stand a chance of seeing the light of day.
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Concerning the lizard part, nice way to put it, but i think even though their convictions are irrationnal, it is a slippery slope as to judge who's conviction is irrational or who's isn't. Wouldn't the majority of the population (theoretically) overwhelm the few who are irrational?
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It could be a slippery slope, if the people who make the judgement's are wrong((or arrive at an poor conclusion/answer), that's why I assume that the judgements are made by the human collective, not the head of state, or a few elites that are in power.
Of-course, some convictions(illogical, or non-beneficial to our human counterparts, and even other earthlings) that people have will have to be ignored, especially, if said conviction does not HARM or INFRINGE anyone and their basic human rights, but instead is just harmless(to others), like OCD, certainly a mental disorder that over time may be corrected given the right treatment/therapy, but that harms no one except, the victim themselves. I hope you get what I'm saying here, some people, because of their convictions, are a harm to others around them, while others are a harm to themselves. The ones with convictions that harm others around them, should be helped first. Problem is, if said irrational beliefs/convictions are spread wide enough, it will become the norm, and as you say, this is a judgement, I just turn it into a manageable judgement.
At some point, humanity has to make judgements, this is IMHO, the way we arrive to decisions, based on cause and effect, and observations of the world around us. That's just my way of looking at it.
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Maybe what is needed (radical suggestion here) is to silence MEDIA institutions (destroy the illusion of credibility given to ''specialists'' and basic psychological mind influencing tactics used by Media) (Yes this suggestion does mean BA'N'NING all form of advertisement) replacing it by citizen journalism or community and consumer reviews... yet Propagating a way to process this information (which would mean the thought process i talked about above---which in brief: open-mindedness caused consequently by thorough critical thinking -or anything similar-)
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That all sounds very good, assuming, there was no longer any need for a monetary system to make profit, and as you know, that's not possible. About discrediting, or destroying the false credibility specialists, and mass media icons have, that sounds like a plausible plan towards a truly informed public. We all have our works cut out for us though, as doing any of that would require complete collapse of the current system. I do think though, that an alternative would be, the citizens, through volunteerism, very much like the open source software community, establish a set of broadcasting networks, where they control the information flow, away from the corporate state, instead like you say, citizen journalism or community and consumer reviews. I've heard of people who work with satellite boxes that receive FTA(Free To Air) signals talk about this, but still, nothing has happened on that front yet. Such a proposition will require a large amount of support, from the right people, and countries. We'll see, maybe in my lifetime.....
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For example: Setting up a platform or video codec so that every person in this world with a video cam can upload whatever movie he makes and have an equal share of being viewed (the initial Youtube) and let the community decide what is worth watching from what's not.
IS MORE VALUABLE than spreading one story or video.
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Sound like another voting platform, certainly sounds good, you know it reminds me though, of the times I go to youtube, I almost never find good material and or informed opinion, it's almost always, an idiot, with a webcam. This is what I mean, when I say, people who are NOT informed on a said subject, should not comment, if they do, they should state, hey, this is IMHO, and may be inaccurate......but this is very rarely the case. It's a side effect, of the over blown ego's all over the world, and to me, the most obnoxious of all, is when someone has been shown, that their opinion on a subject was %100 wrong, yet, their ego won't let their own mind learn and understand.
I'd say for sure though, that youtube desperately needs some competition, especially a non-profit one.
about such a platform being more useful, than just one video, and or message, such as just this video alone. I agree, the problem is, this video contains more accuracy, than what most people(who are subject to popular culture), are able to produce, their whole lives. This is of-course IMHO.
It won't do if people are just ''ready'' for change. People NEED to change themselves first, then the new whatchamacallit society will by itself become reality.
Waiting for a new system to come and adopting it won't help much if people retain the same way of looking at the world as they do now.
IMO the best way is to promote this new world by adopting those values yourselves in your daily life and by transmitting this way of living/thinking to people around you, which in turn encourages them to change themselves. It's a ground up process, not a Top-Down thing.
Change ourselves, change the world. Not the other way around, but hey, that's just my humble baseless opinion.
Yes, that's an important step for sure, being the change you want to see in the world. Problem with this is, it's difficult since we are all forced to participate in the monetary system (dependency).
Boycott doesn't work if only you(or your family) decide to stop using paper bills, precious metals, and other creations of the monetary system(scarce resources, some artificial, some not). Sure you *may be able to* convince your family members, but there comes a disconnect because your just one family, or cell.
My point is, I don't believe IMO that informing *just* those around you would actually achieve CRITICAL MASS, and that is necessary for any change to ever happen.
An example would be, your family stops using a popular product because it causes long term damage to your body. Problem is, that product is popular, and everyone is ignorant of this information. So, unless NOT using this product becomes popular, your family, and the people around you(if they agree with you), are still a minority. They, the group, won't affect change, but there are exceptions to this. That is, if your family is famous, and get T.V. coverage, then they will have a chance at becoming influential, otherwise, its statistically unlikely IMO.
Much of what I just stated in the previous paragraph is subject to variability, since news reporter's, new's editors, writers, and other influential people are part of family units(a cultural creation), and there is an idea based on what I'm describing, its called "six degrees of seperation", many that study topology, math...(and others) are trying to come up with an answer to this idea. There is a docu somewhere on SeeUat Videos that goes over some of it(I can't recall the name though).
That is why popular media, and other forms of electronic communication are useful for effectively relaying this information to more than just your family unit or just the people you come into contact with , although, not everyone has access to computer, internet, T.V., etc, etc, so word of mouth would be the last line of communication for those people.
BTW, I mostly agree with you, best regards.
skimming over the comments, I've noticed that generally, the substance of the comment is inversely proportional to its length.
Why not?
It's pretty difficult to make big corporations get out of the way, and improve our welfare instead of increasing their profits.
Yes, if we don't clip the wings of the oligarchs, civilization's chances of survival are very small indeed
would you scrub toilets, clean windows, shovel garbage or work in a noisy factory for free every day ? cause somebodies gonna have to.
It seems as if no one will address those problems, and those very important problems.
millions of people all over the world are ready for a true change, freedom for all.
Yes, and a good way to get things moving would be to raise taxes on the super rich. Because basically, what we have now is a monarchy rebranded as capitalism.
In my opinion Jacque Fresco has found the ideal young man to carry his vision after his death, it certainly would not be Roxanne Meadows who is not an orator. The parting of TZM and TVP reminds me of a controlling dad and a rambunctious son, Peter Joseph. I think Joseph will take the influence he has had from Fresco and take it to new heights, actually he has. TZM is mainly in the hands of the populace, which is what is needed. Fresco has been a great teacher of his philosophy for him. Fresco is also a great thinker and architect but i still don't see that side of the project as a feasable replacement overnight...over a century either. We can change a mentality almost overnight with the right message, but we can't change the physicallity of cities the same way.
From Wiki: "Throughout his life Fresco has been labeled a "dreamer, an eccentric, an utopian, an idealist, a crackpot, a charlatan, yet, concurrently, a genius, a prophet, and a visionary. Some feel that his vision is impractical, idealistic, and/or borderline science fiction. These attitudes continue today across some Web sites. Even further, some claims have labeled him a cult leader due to his figurehead status in The Zeitgeist Movement. Others accuse him of affiliations with conspirators of a New World Order.Fresco dismisses these accusations.
I'd say!
I have enjoyed watching this doc, exchanging ideas on the subject, and learning more about the view.
In due time, we shall see what comes out of this. As i said earlier may be one day a movie will change the world. Some have but just by inches, we need something that will change the world by candela unit.
az
I guess we'll just have to wait and see what the future will bring for humanity.
I have never studied Dr. King extensively but, I think he was a courageous and well spoken man devoted to a moral cause. I grew up in the southeastern U.S., in Alabama in fact, and ended up getting married to a black woman. So, I know first hand the kind of prejudice, backward, and intolerant culture he was trying to over come. Its of course much better now than in Dr. Kings time but, it is still unbelievably bad. One thing i admired the most about Dr. King was that he never let his personal ego or pride get in the way of what he was trying to accomplish for all people. There were many times when those that opposed him tried to make the movement about him, his education or motive for doing what he was doing. But, Dr.King never lost sight of his goal and always acted in service of it. I also admired his commitment to non-violent, respectful civil disobedience even in the face of the horrible violence and disrespect visited upon himself and his followers. I have no way of knowing what he was like as a person, other than through his work, but he seemed like an honorable, decent man to me.
Hey Waldo, yes Dr. King was a great man. But do you think maybe he was too much of a leader for the black community. What I mean by that is every black person in America stood behind HIM and HIS strength..not really finding their own. Hero's are made when little, long lasting, deeds are done. LIke a little old black lady ,out of the blue, saying she can sit anywhere on the bus she wanted....that's a heroic moment that will always be remembered. Dr King had beautiful intentions and was one h*ll of a man but if you look back at his era. There's alot of violence after every time he spoke. And awesome speaches he certainly gave...just like Lincoln...JFK...Malcolm X...ect
good way to look at it also
I agree very much with you. I see jacque fresco as a similar man to Martin Luther King jr. he is trying to create freedom for all races all genders all people. I hope I don't offend you I mean it in a positive way jacque has stated the importance of people like mr. king. and feels we need to develop them ideas even further for humanity.here is a quote by jacque related to this topic "There are no Negro problems, or Polish problems, or Jewish problems, or Greek problems, or women’s problems…there are HUMAN problems"I like talking with you and hearing your opinion on things.
LOL, I have to jump in.
Waldo has a point. Change is brought about an individual's change in mindset. Mindset is determined by what a person must do to adapt except in the case of a psychopath. They are just adaptable actors. Re-education makes as much sense as "no child left behind". Reality is that the world is full of stupid. The education system does not make stupid smart, but it does deprive society of genius. Bore a genius and and he/she will not develope into a success.
I had hoped the present economic downturn would shake up the status quo and we would see positive change such as more efficient xportation etc. The system has been rigged so that it resists change. Cash for clunkers means that more gas guzzlers are out on the roads. I non-productive consumer who lost his job is now on welfare/unemployment/indigent care. The overfinanced made homeless are now in a rent controlled apartment. Give them bread and circuses.
MLK accomplished what no one had before him in this country. He was also a hypocrite like all "men of god". He borrowed from the tale of Moses leading the israelis out of Egypt, and yet he ignored the books of the bible Joshua and Judges in which the israelis went into the land of milk and honey and "slew" every man, woman and child- GENOCIDE! He tried to make the analogy of their slavery to the American slaves but history (not biblical history) says that the Egyptians expelled the israelis like the republicans want to expel the Mexicans. I guess now we will have to contend with a Mexican Moses with his magic stall.
How is this not New World Order?
there is not one thing similar between the two that should be obvious
There's nothing but similarities.
This whole video seems like a trow back, to communist and New World Order - sales pitches. It serves you a bundle of dreamy solutions to all problems, but in the end, is likely to be comprised by power structures very similar to the ones we already have. But historically you don't get that info up front, funny how that works.
Pure Orson Wells-nightmare scenario, put into a neat package for this ignorant generation. I'm guessing you have to look up Orson Wells to get that.
Are you even listening to what he is saying? Really listening? "The brain has no mechanism for discrimination, except experience"... Sooo... How do explain every activist, artist or radical politician who broke with society norms ever? Sorry, this is pure holistic ranting.
Some of the points i do find valid. But there's to much trash in between. There's not a single idea in there, about how this plan could ever be imposed on a global basis. And that's where the similarities with New Word Order gets freaky. They have everything politically and realistically in place, but they do not have the hearts and minds of the peoples. This will soften people up, to the general idea of a one government world.
I read your other posts, of which there a suspiciously many. You are obviously a fanboy, give it a rest man. A piece of advice : Never be a fan/fanatic/religious about anything - It blinds you by removing your objectivity.
nothing you said here is useful, or correct, or accurate, I think you should give it a rest. I've read most of what you have relating to the past atrocities of communism, and socialism, as well as orson wells material. It has NOTHING to do with these idea's, you and a whole Alex Jones groupie club continue to make comments exactly like this, and it's tiresome to someone who actually is awake, open-minded, and has a little more optimism then you.
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I read your other posts, of which there a suspiciously many. You are obviously a fanboy, give it a rest man. A piece of advice : Never be a fan/fanatic/religious about anything - It blinds you by removing your objectivity.
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hahaha! seriously ironic here, I was going to write the same almost exact statement to you, but I'll just quote you.
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Are you even listening to what he is saying? Really listening? "The brain has no mechanism for discrimination, except experience"... Sooo... How do explain every activist, artist or radical politician who broke with society norms ever? Sorry, this is pure holistic ranting.
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Again, this shows that your indeed not listening, or at minimum, not understanding what he's trying to say, it's in a different context than what your talking about. By experience, he means that in our society, we LEARN what we discriminate against, it's learned, it is NOT inherently built into our physical biology, so a nazi baby is no different from a french baby. In other words, this load of horse manure you call human nature, is a falsehood, it doesn't exist in reality, instead, it's imagined by you, and you even manifest this negative, abhorrent idea in the world around you. So, yes, the brain has no mechanism for discrimination is an accurate assessment, your born a blank slate, and your programmed by your environment to discriminate. Hope this clears that up.
You are too much fun to read. Rather like religious folk, trying to explain away reality.
Like i commented earlier, your amount of posts gives you away. Don't be a fanboy, never go full-retard, and never ever try siding-with-right when being insulting. Obviously you have plenty to learn yourself, so why point that out in others? You strike me as someone, with bundles of utterly useless knowledge, looking for somewhere to put it to use. You are doing it, in the least elegant way possible, and I'm sure most readers won't be drawn to your cause as a consequence.
Running away never solved anything. Society has no single governing rule, it a free-for-all with plenty of possibilities. If you can't acknowledge that, then you have run spectacularly out of ideas or just lost hope. In either case, its not my problem. I totally agree upon the system being flawed, its blindingly obvious, but nevertheless its the system we've inherited. If everyone who noticed this fact, turns and runs, how is it ever truly going to change? Society needs conscious minds, to stimulate change from the inside.
What does feeding the US population, have remotely to do with this guy, wanting to read a book and run off into the back country? Please stick to the point. If he is a strong enough learner to pull that off, why shouldn't he be able to teach himself almost any new skill? You say the problem is caused by a too large amount of unskilled workers, in a particular area. That i can agree with, but i cannot agree with that simply making it impossible, at least if you still have enough youth left to run into the wild. We can also agree upon the minimum wage, being set by someone who never tried living off it.
I'm stuck in the matrix yes, i was born here, and I'm staying for the duration. You repeatedly talk about ignorance, and closed minds, but you insult a drug user for being one, how does that work? A little easy don't you think?. Dearest person, please call Guinness, you might be the record holder for biggest hypocrite. It wouldn't surprise me one bit, if you turn out to be racist as well.
I'm no Alex Jones fan, and never will be. The man is crazy. New World Order is not an idea of his, but a expression used to describe how the world is moving towards a single government, which has been happening at least the last 60 years. The problem i see in description of the Venus Project, is that there's no information at all. I'm sorry, but the guy has been working on it for 30 years, and has till only come up with some models and drawings. That just won't swing. Everyone is equal is all he has got, which obviously is not the case, otherwise you cannot govern, and i a society someone has to do so.
In none of your post, do you actually provide any information or value, but purely refute any comments and call people disagreeing dumb. I hope you do not represent TVP in any official fashion, otherwise there should be taken steps to shut you down.
Grown azz man, please sit back down. Hush up now. Thank you.
try wiki jacque fresco before assumming he just "makes drawings"
There's no money!!!
And technology is used for good not evil!!!
I've watched all Jacque Frescos documentarys and love them all.And the things he creates is able to be done know,he leaves room for tecnology we have not got yet.But all the things he speaks of can be done know with current technology.It's greed I feal is the reason we are not there yet,some people are raised to belive they should be above others in wealth and other aspects of life.Insead of having everthing they need in abundance for them and everyone else.If we don't all die in a nucular war caused by greed or other things people have been brainwashed to belive there entire lifes.Like MR Fresco said we will be look at by future generations as far from humain,as a hole we will be seen as evil.Even though there are at least as many good people as bad the bad seem to controll the powerfull positions that send other trhat have been brainwashed into unessasary wars for money oil all because of greed and the unwillingness to change.Things like the Venus Project,Zeitgeist,and a thing I've read recently Wavevolution amoung others can make life much better for everyone.All are great ideas and all could be used to better life for humains and all animals on earth.I also belive people most anyway will be far from lazy and work to make the world even better because of new ideas and technology.All humains except the people that get rich off others deaths in wars and theft of countrys resourses want an end to all wars and wqorld suffering.And there are much much more people that hate wars and the evil we see than the people that love it because of the money they make,and all these people now exactly how they are no need to name them or there organizations because they and every day more people know exactly how you are.The 7 billion plus people will put aside the things we've been brainwashed into beliveing that seperates us and finnaly stand as one the humain race.It's not so much race no more that actually seperates people as rich and poor.And there is about 1% of the population that is considerd rich or elite 1%.It will eventually come to an end eather through none violent protest or the death of millions when the end the 7 billion will win.The people in the militarys most know they are not close to the 1% they are just like the people they are being orderd to kill.And most I belive will in the end stand with the worlds citizens.The sooner we make life for everyone better the sooner we can put aside the differences that make one group dislike another like race and religion,that the 1% loves to use to seperate us and they usde so many different things they trick people into doing their dirty work mudering each other.We are all different and thats good and people have the right to belive what they chose as long as it don't hurt others.If this change don't happen we will one day destroy the world and the reasourses that can make this possible.We already are destroying the world and it's preventable if we use tecnology and get rige of greed by supplying everyone with what they need.
Yes!, you got it at last.
Thank you, and I'm with you in this.
Yay! Fantastic! Thanks SeeUat Videos for adding Paradise or oblivion here!! #PoO #TVP #RBE
what's PoO?
az
go to TVP website there is FAQ with 107 questions and answers all concerns expressed here are addressed and more.
"I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal."
I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia, the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.
I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.
I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.
I have a dream today!
I have a dream that one day, down in Alabama, with its vicious racists, with its governor having his lips dripping with the words of "interposition" and "nullification" -- one day right there in Alabama little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers.
I have a dream today!
I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, and every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight; "and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed and all flesh shall see it together." - Martin Luther King jr.
In the long term, there will no longer be any white boys or girls, because we'll all just look swarthier and look and feel healthier. That's how evolution works. Just give it time.
A lot of people posting on this topic are Poisoning the well, setting up strawmen , and a whole list of fallacies relating to the topic at hand. The fact is if we are talking about the same topic on here those people would be offering their alternative to a RBE addressing the issues of redesigning society in a holistic way.
Daar John:
Sorry, but I had to start off this way---
Starting over; there are different ways to approach problem solving. The american way is to spend 10% of the time defining the problem and 90% solving it. The Japanese have a different approach. 90% is spent defining the problem and 10% still fixes it. Which society is the most efficient. Which society exists with the minimum raw materials? Case closed! Sweet dreams.
the Japanese are amazing people
Yes, they are. Just like most Asian cultures. A lot of unity and disipline to their culture!
Who or what is RBE?
John Lennon sang imagine~ a utopia~ and he was shot down. We are doomed, surrounded by psychopaths (Watch: "I Am Fishhead: Are Corporate Leaders Psychopaths?") and being medicated by by big pharma with happy pills which produce more psychopaths.
I am a certified tree farmer. Why? Because it is the right thing to do. It damned sure isn't for the money. This renewable resource is downgraded by industry and private landowners who high grade our private and public lands for profit. I could have gotten gov't money for my plantations (30% cost share) but i would have had to spend three times as much to establish them. I would have had to use herbicides systemically destroying biodiversity. The multinationals lobby for this system. The irony is that the political party that backs them is anti-gay and the chemicals, many of which are pseudo estrogen compounds are responsible for the gay revolution and the extremely high rate of breast cancer.(see the article in Nature titled "Genetic Mutations in Riverine Mammals of the Columbia River Basin" circa !996/97.) Correlate the patent date of Benlate and the beginning of the gay revol. Get a spray card for the use of restricted chemicals and watch the "educational" film as required. Our nations water supply test positive for Benlate and Carbamate~ all of it.
MIT just published a study which says our economic system can't last beyond 2030. They have modeled all conceivable scenarios and the end is near. What is not questioned is can it last that long. Fools in their ruts think they can cache enough guns and ammo to survive a fall and take what they need to survive. They merely make themselves targets. Good luck y'all!
Thats such great information, thankyou, good luck to you to sir.
I must make a correction to the reference I made to the journal Nature. The title of the paper was Mutation of Sexual Body Parts of Riverine Mammals of the Columbia River Basin. The arthur lists 15 or more pseudo estrogen compounds. These are agri-chemicals that have binding sites like estrogen. I xstrapolated the consequences. How many times can you roll the dice and not come up snake eyes? Bare in mind Monsanto owns the patent for Benelate, trade name Benlate. Peace, TR
PS; All papers submitted to journals are subject to peer review.
I beleive that there is valuable insight to this documentary that would benifit everyone who views it. Our current ways of life are on a dead end course.
I became aware when I was young, that the only reason one thinks the way they do, is by accident of birth. Your religion, your political views, your diet, your opinions, hatreds and loves. All due to your environment, and what you learn from it, or fail to learn from it.
I believe that where mankind went wrong, was when we all agreed that a little yellow rock, was worth more than everything else. We became willing to live for it and die for it. It has done more to damage our perceptions and value of life around the globe than anything else in the history of man.
Money isn't fair. And, money isn't even backed by gold anymore! Yet we kill over monopoly money?
My time should not be more financially valuable than yours. Yet this is the foundation of civilizations? Any child knows that if you play monopoly it will always end with one person holding all the money. There is more blind luck to the game than skill. And you can't even play if you have no money. And once you aquire enough money, nobody can stop you. Game over. That's where we are headed.
The powers behind our world governing ways of life, governments and religions, are the bankers. The powers over all of us working class around the world, have put a dollar amount on your worth.
It sickens me to see anyone profit from war. It saddens me to see religious fanatics endorse war. However, it devestates me to know that world wide, more people are so unhappy that they are more willing to kill themselves by suicide, than the total of all casulties of wars and murders combined. Rather than try and survive in this unfair out of control, self destructive world we all live in.
The only thing I know is, that when you speak of honesty and fairness in any debate between two sides, you almost always will end up with both sides turning against you.
I have wondered for a long time now, where are the wise and fair adults in the world? Why are they not heard? Why do we listen and follow corrupt leaders, unless we want to be like them and obtain what they have.
Unless you have gold, or appear to be finacially well off in this world, nobody will listen to you.
If you're not interested in material gains, you're unselfish, generous and fair, You will be an outcast, no matter what wisdom or knowledge you may hold that could make this a better world.
No one will listen to logic or reason it seems if you advocate love, respect and fairness. Most will only see you as a dreamer. Some will say that you're sick, a bum or a loser.
At the end of the day, most will have more important issues to dream about. A new car, bigger home, what celebrities are wearing, what team won or how to kill the terrorists that want to ruin our wonderfully material way of life.
I have only one suggestion that could ever help save the world. Everybody, please just grow up. Be fair and hurt no one.
Yep, it is wonderful life. Full of wonder. All thanks to that little yellow rock.
This interview link shows how TZM has tried over and over again to come to an agreement with TVP in order to keep going with their merger.
The answer is no, our way or no way.
Is TVP promoting world union????
az
I think your focusing on the grapevine gossip, and not the message, also, I think at this point that your honestly just opposing anything to do with this docu, just because it opposes your comfort zone. Maybe its homeostasis, not sure. I already stated, yes, both parties are n disagreement, but only about a very miniscule and meaningless thing. I think you purposely attempting to discredit and kill the idea's in this film, by bringing up the fiasco/gossip. It's information spin, just like fox news, and the other corporate owned media. Just my observation. Otherwise, if your just skeptical that said ideas will be implemented, that's a fair, and also pessimistic position. Everyone said the wright brothers would create no such flying machine, but they proved everyone(including many in the academic community) wrong.
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.
Margaret Mead -
Sorry @Achems for putting links on my comments and creating work for you...can i have a secret pass? I promise i'll be a good girl!
az
Links are on, will watch them also!
I would much prefer Damanhur.
The first thing that popped into my mind was why it's a modern interpretation of Atlantis.
i thought that too...same layout of cities as is thought Atlantis was.
az
I must have a more sinister mind, I thought Logans Run :/
Ah yes, Logans Run...the girl with the very short skirt.
Short skirts and a push up bra, simplest yet most effective form of mind control known to woman kind, even the Mighty fall ;)
I always want to ask this guy "What about areas of the inhabited Earth that aren't politely tropical? What about deserts and mountainous regions, how will the city grid adapt to these unproductive and unmountable lands? And what about our existing city layouts? Is it energy efficient to blast them all to rubble to rebuild them in logical geometric plans?" It IS a very desirable future and I think he is right in that we are capable of improving our efficiency in design and dissemination. What I haven't heard is any ideas about the Transition from our current system..
Sitting here idly thinking about the mayhem of the big switch, that part might be fun. Then what. A spiderweb of sameness all over the planet. Think I would rather be out in the woods, away from the suffocating order of the new cities. If I forget everything that has been said here and look again at the man and his plan, the more creepy it feels. The grand idea is not so bad, the devil is in the detail. As for the man, I'm sure he had the best intentions when he started but I can't shake the image of an obsessive model rail enthusiast, the sort that writes life stories for the tiny plastic people ;)
Right, the vision that I get is a race of "overweight human robots" Reminds me of the animated movie "Wall-E", programmed to be the same in their boring thoughts and actions, no aspirations to better themselves, for what? everything is paid for, you will be told what to watch, what to think, and believe me there would be dire consequences for those that wander from the fray, for one thing they will turn off your embedded chip.
Alas most humans have to have someone with more power to tell them what is good for them, "might is right"!
Reminds me of the boring heaven that the religee's so aspire to, with all their Harps and such.
Heaven, no thanks! I'll be knocking on Old Nicks door, I hear that's where the party is. Rather have total anarchy. You know me Razor, can't stop being a bad girl ;) This is the absolute opposite of freedom, it's slavery in sheep's clothing.
Invincible ignorance fallacy
I know your just kidding, but seriously, people believe the crap your posting. AI robots controlling your daily life, and a RFID chip in your arm. Just listen to Alex Jones radio show, and you'll hear him clamor over and over about this, constantly ranting, and whoring his emotions for the listeners, and gaining more sensationalist attention.
Also, I've noticed you used this word "religee's" alot, is this meant to be tolerant of said deity believers. Maybe it's funny to those that have a sense of humor, but some just see it as disrespectful. My 2 cents.
Also, might is right, complete horse manure. You mean all humans are useless tools that can't think for themselves, and arrive to answers to problems, because their not scientists, or, their not atheist. I'm not putting words in your mouth, just using examples to see if this is indeed what you mean by:
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Alas most humans have to have someone with more power to tell them what is good for them, "might is right"!
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Actually my comment also stands, with an addition, there is a New World Order coming, no matter how much I and others are against it! It is a given!
There is currently mayhem, it just hasn't reached your doorstep, and if your being sarcastic with saying it will be fun, we'll see when those with nothing harm you for your resources.
We have a spiderweb of sameness right now, do you ever watch t.v. and see the drones, these people are vessels of there culture/enviroment, but express nothing new, nothing that hasn't been done before. Singers all sounding the same, movies continue to use the same plots and subjects. Sorry, but its the limitations of this system that chains us down from being creative, instead we're too busy to be creative(busy being profitable, and making money). The reason the entertainment industry as well as all currently exist is to profit, not be artistically unique and expressive.
You could be in the woods if you like, but would you attempt to survive alone, lets hope not, because being out in the woods is harder than it sounds without the right tools, and resources. As far as the layout plans for these cities, sustainability is in mind here, meaning, there will be tree's, and plant life, everywhere. Might I add, we currently use wood to build houses, so if your happy with the current technology, those woods you want to go to, won't have anywhere the amount of tree's they currently have, as the population grows, more wood needs to be consumed for housing. Some food for thought.
I'm not a fan of the scale models either, mainly because they look to scifi (hence, utopian) , ofcourse, their design is based on efficient/improved aerodynamics, and energy efficiency in mind, not tree murder.
About feeling creepy, I don't understand why you feel that way. I remember when I once took a tour of a new fancy gated community. They had a trailer, and inside, there was a scale model of their houses, with different styles, and configurations, and to give potential buyers an idea of what the properties looked like before actually going to a tour. Doesn't seem creepy to me. Also, he is just one man, if you don't like the styles, or some other detail, he said, these ideas can be adapted, and changes according to human demand.
Another mental paradigm that many humans nowadays are stuck on, is the idea of leaders. Who said he would command everything, this is not communism, everyone together as a collective would collaborate, and assist in making decisions, yes, maybe an actual democracy would be possible, not the complete lie and fallacy we have today, where most humans think they have free will, "freedom", fair voting, democracy, but an actual democracy(every living quarter could have voting machines built right in). There is a caveat to this though, decisions that involve a particular skill set to be required should not be diluted by uninformed people of said skill set. So, for example, if the central datacenter dome requires some security updates, its not appropriate that people that know nothing about said subject have a say. Some think this is unfair, but no, its logical.
I would still prefer the adventure in the woods. My previous comment stands. :)
I hope I didn't come off as rude either Azilda, I just saw that you made statements on these threads about your doubts of these ideas, and I thought maybe I could clarify some details about said ideas. no respect lost by me, but the links you posted we pretty ridiculous.
@John Jacquard,
I understand your response, but you have to be as neutral as possible if your going to get your message though (if at least a small % of it). We're all human, and get frustrated.
best regards
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I personally think you guys march to the beat of a different drummer.
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@Achems_Razor,
I'd be proud to admit that, yes, I do march differently, it takes courage to go against the status quo (as well as refuse to be part of the structure your born in, (fit into the mold)), and not decay the arguments made in this film. I'm just saying, that some people are posting BS (whether on purpose, or honestly), that comes from uninformed opinion (i'm not saying to stop this, its fine if most people where critical thinkers, unfortunately, not so), atleast, with informed opinion, I have some food for thought, instead, all I see here is pessimism and closed minds(no matter how much you refute it). And newcomers to this information are discouraged from breaking out of there mental paradigm. Ahh well, it was worth a try. I'll think though that, giving people the chance to comment on documentaries and give their 2 cents is very cool.
best regards
Thanks vlatko, and the support staff.
No one has been rude to me. John expressed his impatience bordering on anger, the one to have felt it is himself. I have no reason to dislike him or dislike you. I agree more with you and him than not, it is with the plan of the project i'm not resonating.
I'd like to sit with you with a cup of tea and chat about non-status quo. I bet i could get you to raise your eyebrows a couple times.
az
@brainst0rm:
You are coming across with your verbage as polite and cool, so I have no problem reading your posts even though I may not agree with them, and none of your posts were deleted, you presented no ad hominem attacks. So do not take my comments to heart.
@John Jacquard....you lost respect in me? You better get prepared if this vision is to ever be put in motion.
All i did is look on the internet for about one hour and found a few videos and there are many more, some perhaps even uglier.
If this vision is ever to become a reality or something similar, one thing people are going to have to put aside is their feelings and emotions and lack of respect for different opinions.
You will be faced with people of all walks of life, from all countries, with mentality you have never witnessed with your own eyes, people that are presently in jail, governement officials that are cheating for a living and much more variety of beings.
You dream of unity, start here...unite with people different than you. Stay passionate about the goal but don't ever forget that you will have to swallow before you talk.
I never direct anything to you personaly, i openly write about my doubts.
az
...people that are presently in jail! WTF! Well that does it for me.see ya. :-)
Jails, strip clubs, lawyer offices, Jerry Springer, gutter punk, nuns, evangelists, bingo cheaters....a nice melting pot that will test the philanthropic attitude of many.
I can't wait!
also...a joke a day makes the mouth wrinkles deeper. If you keep it up, i'll need plastic surgery.
az
HAha ha, I'll try my best Az. To be honest with ya, 1/2 the time I'm really not trying to be funny...I'm really that stupid! :-)
I was checking out one of the housing units on YouTube..yuck!! That has to be improved, ugly as sin. I dont mind using a dome and looking for good functionality but this thing is ugly.
Some more thoughts, for step #1 of the transition to RBE, people need to BOYCOTT and REFUSE the dollar bill, that would remove the differential advantage(through artificial debt) that the bank has on humans. This among other things. Ofcourse, I am aware that said proposal would leave people in the current system without the necessities for life, that's why I must emphasize, this needs to be a gradual, and safe transition to RBE, meaning people first need to gain their nutritional "freedom"(word subject to alot of interpretation) through self sustenance, then, and ONLY then can we safely transition to RBE. Hope this clarifies things for some people. If I have anymore thoughts about this, or related material, I'll try to chime in and post.
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It doesn't eliminate all major problems, it creates one - how to get there from here without everything going wrong in the switch over. What about all the poorer countries, barely able to feed themselves. Where do they suddenly get the resources from to jump in, or do we continue to exploit places like Africa to build this eden for ourselves first. We can't suddenly make ourselves able to feed and cloth them, give them the freedoms we will have without someone taking advantage of their position in the meantime. The logistics alone would be next to impossible and any system with people involved is open to error and corruption.
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@John Jacquard, I feel your pain.
@dewflirt
I also understand peoples concerns, as most expect all the problems addressed in the films to answered and laid out perfectly(talk about utopian expectations, and they call us utopians). As far as I am aware, the scientific data and research required to get these things done have not been completed. In our current system, the only people contributing to build physics, and engineering models (among the other systems, i.e. biology) in computer and in scale models for the RBE are/would be volunteers, and this would be in their spare time. I heard that 1 person from NASA was going to volunteer some of their time, so that sounds promising. But my point is, people first need to be willing to UNDERSTAND such a system(conceptually), and then ACCEPT it, and hopefully CONTRIBUTE towards achievement of said system. This is STEP #1, then we could begin working out the technical details. I for one will volunteer my skills to such a cause, who wouldn't, if they actually know what is at stake.
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It doesn't eliminate all major problems, it creates one - how to get there from here without everything going wrong in the switch over.
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yep, the transition(if there is one) will be possibly be a bloody/violent one, I don't have an happy response to this, as its very possible that Stuff will Hit The Fan. I will say though, that it doesn't have to be this way if the idea's in this film become popular, and certain talk radio pundits, would STFU, a peaceful transition is possible.
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What about all the poorer countries, barely able to feed themselves. Where do they suddenly get the resources from to jump in, or do we continue to exploit places like Africa to build this eden for ourselves first. We can't suddenly make ourselves able to feed and cloth them, give them the freedoms we will have without someone taking advantage of their position in the meantime.
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About the poorer countries not having resources, thats just wrong, every square inch of land is a resource we can engineer to provide for its inhabitants(all earthlings). The problem with poorer countries is education, and lack of farming technologies(or the people to teach them how to self sustain during the transition), in some places its against the law to self sustain(grow your own food). Another problem with ALL COUNTRIES, and the biggest of all, currently is CORRUPTION. Since capitalism teaches to acquire resources, and continuously consume, it makes sense that government officials all over the world can be bribed, and therein lies some of the reasons why slavery and oppression are alive and well today. The real reason why other "poorer"(in whatever way you mean it) are poor is because, they don't COOPERATE with each other, instead they HORDE their hectares of land and crop, and don't work the land TOGETHER.
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The logistics alone would be next to impossible and any system with people involved is open to error and corruption.
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what you state is exactly what TZM and TVP intend to acknowledge, present to the human race, and eventually, SOLVE. This is why technology is presented in the films, because this mostly remove human fallibility, and thats important when dealing with human life. Ask usps how they deliver millions of packages daily without too many problems(yes, there not perfect, but humans right the shipping address, weather happens, etc, etc), thats logistics, and its a system like any other.
@ whomever it applies to
I should add for you socialism and communism experts, none of those said systems have ever actually been implemented in their pure intended form(marx text, or lenin revolution), especially not socialism, korea has communism down pretty well, but I support none of these systems personally (some may argue about socialism, but this is my opinion). Also, Capitalism has yet to be implemented in its purest form, because as far as I know, the FREE MARKET(whatever that means) hasn't been given the chance to operate as theologists like Adam Smith point out with there statements like "invisible hand of the market", you have to base this whole current system on FAITH, NOT SCIENCE or LOGIC. Point here is, what is proposed in these films is NOTHING to do with these previously incorrectly implemented systems. During there implementation, NO SCIENCE(real science, not people twisting the words of charles darwin) was involved, as well as an actual sustainable plan, because these concepts of sustainability weren't in existence. This is why these aberrations of the past happened. That is no reason to kill new ideas, times change, and with change 'CAN' come improvement.
Like Matt Kukowski at the start of this thread said:
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(Negative comment here) == Decay
(Positive comment here) == Creativity
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I couldn't agree more.
Let's do something different for a minute. You state your concerns with the TVP plan and we'll see what we have to say about them.
az
wald0- please give me your alternative to the system we have today.the system would need to account for these things, meeting human needs,housing ,preventing corruption,education,goods and services, utilization and monitoring of the earth's resources,solving current problems leading us to extinction.
i come here and give you my support of RBE system. if you disagree, please give me your equivalent. then we will be having the same conversation.
See what i mean, see how defensive and petty you have become simply because I raised a concern about TVP. I think I made it very plain that i do suport TVP and prefer it to the present system. I also made it very plain that there are serious issues that we must overcome before TVP can be a reality. You want to dismiss those issues as irrelevant while at the same time admitting the TVP web site is all about re-education aimed toward a value shift. So which is it, is it irrelevant or is it a large enough obstacle that you guys have dedicated an entire portion of the movement to it, namely re-education in order to bring about a value shift? If it is important, which at this point is fairly obvious, what makes you guys think simple re-education will achieve it? And finally, No- it isn't your job or duty to convince people of anything but, you have certainly spent a great deal of time and effort on just this forum trying to do just that haven't you. Now when I try and explain the most successful way to go about that you call it manipulation. Well, call it what you will- you would have more success the way I explained it to you. However, if it means more to you to be able to insult and belittle people while insisting you are so knowledgeable and well informed on the subject as to be beyond possible error- knock yourself out. What hapenned to letting science be the guide and overcoming human nature? You are acting according to human nature, argueing in an inefficient manner, and closing your mind to any other point of view. See how easy it is to fall into instinctual human nature, even when you are argueing against it?
go to TVP website and look at FAQ there are 107 questions with the answers that cover all concerns here and others as well.
I wish you good luck
what are your views on Martin Luther King jr. ?
can i ask what your thoughts are on TZM, Peter Joseph and TZM's new direction with the coming of Beyond The Pale?
az
=can i ask what your thoughts are on TZM, Peter Joseph and TZM's new direction with the coming of Beyond The Pale?
az=
=Peter's films are an important step in informing the general public of these important issues, and the impact they have on society while still being able to put an artistic expression in them as a film maker and musician .Peter has an incredible talent as a public speaker and articulates his ideas well in regards to a systems approach applied to a RBE.I do see why Jacque feels like Peter leaves out important aspects regarding peoples' values and the impact society has on people today.The other part to an RBE is people cannot just jump in with the programming they have had by this environment this is what jacque means by "re-education".When an individual comes out of the military they have to be prepaired for civilian life de-briefed they call it , or when someone is coming out of prison they have to be prepared for society.If someone is going to be an astronaut they need to go through these steps before going in that environment.Jacque has a incredible ability to view the larger picture. when he was a safety engineer in his twenties he did more for areonuatics then the entire history before that.this is one example amoung many for what he has already contributed to society. He has spent over 70 years perfecting TVP and it would take anyone a while to understand the whole thing.I appreciate both TVP and TZM for their contributions on developing a society for the future in which problems are eliminated in the design itself and helping humanity evolve so we do not go extinct. I only hope things work out in the future so that all humans can experience a positive environment that nutures and creates peace.To see us go extinct is the biggest waste I can imagine.
I had to laugh...Jacque Fresco was born on March 13th...just like me. i'll read up his wiki file.
az
LOL nice
wald0- lets get something straight here. It is not my job to prove anything to anyone. I have spent 6 years daily researching the most important elements relating to issues as these, so I could have a valid view on such matters.I talk to people everyday about these things and help where I can but If they did that research they would get there too. NOTHING in these areas are opinion based.researching the state of the world ,the systems and disciplines related to social environment science.psychology,biology,Environmental science,study of systems, genetics,anthropology, etc. the process is not opinion based, the material is not opinion based. TVP is not opinion based. I found out about RBE years after i was involved in the research then i examined everything they are about before arriving at my opinion on it.which is yes I want to live in a world that addresses problems, and in regards to how people eat drink live that's their choice they get that because they are living, they don't have to bow down to have their needs met. in regards to "government" TVP has all information about the earth monitored so society can reflect natural law.people in RBE will have thousands more choices everything you have now and add thousands if you want to spend every tuesday teaching your children about how science works you can go grab the materials to show them experiments or build engines or teach them how to plant food and how nature works.I have posted links below that explain everything and I have explained everything TVP is only different from what we have now in the ways desrcibed a lot of things don't apply like things opinion based it is the same process if we were to put man on mars you look at the planet and it's resources look at the carrying capacity look at how much food they need? did we put a mcdonalds in space and banks for nasa? or do we give then their needs? do they have to spend money while they are in orbit to eat a dehydrated apple?
The Venus Project and the Zeitgeist Project remind me of a couple who decided to split up because of irreconciliable differences.
A video called: Why did The Venus Project part ways with The Zeitgeist Movement.
Together they were reaching a wide audience, people came to associate the two as one. The parting created a set back for both.
the union of two beautiful inspirations
can create 1 masterpiece
or destroy two masterpieces in progress
consider doing things alone
on your magnum opus
before inviting an assistant
consider your assistant if you have 1
1i plus 1i may equal 3
while i1 plus i1 may equal 0
benefit from the skills and willingness
talent and creativity of people you love
let them gain from yours in response
associate in harmony
disassociate the same way
and remember
sunflower and beans can grow well together
az
An other question is how many people live on the Venus project grounds? Couldn't find that info anywhere, number of employees and such. ON most videos there are no people walking around, no people sitting at desk, no obvious employees or participants other than groups of visitors, there must be quite a few gardeners though, the grounds look manicured.
what i find interesting is that this idea focuses on resources,behavior and science. but when those of us not yet convinced ask for scientific evidence,how behavior is to be changed or how those resources will be made abundant. we are either told that they will with no actual facts to back that up, we don't know enough.look it up for ourselves , change the subject, or point out flaws in the current system. that is infuriating. if you want a scientific revolution how about you go about it scientifically. that means trying to falsify a claim, asking questions,answering others questions,testing,observing and providing answers based in demonstrable facts. it is sad that i have to say what i say to the religious here but. you are making a claim i just don't believe it. the burden of proof is on you.
Jacque Fresco often says on his videos that he does not have the credential and that is why US big boys don't pay attention to him. On an old interview with Larry King WTVJ 1974, he is introduced as Doctor Fresco and a line of credentials is presented.
On his website under Jacque Fresco resume, he is presented as a social engineer. I wasn't sure what that meant exactly so i googled (sorry to those who dislike google): "is understood to mean the art of manipulating people into performing actions or divulging confidential information. While it is similar to a confidence trick or simple fraud, it is typically trickery or deception for the purpose of information gathering, fraud, or computer system access; in most cases the attacker never comes face-to-face with the victims. *Social engineering* as an act of psychological manipulation had previously been associated with the social sciences, but its usage has caught on among computer professionals.
I am not one to think that you have to have a formal education to have a voice but i know the big boys like that stamped paper. If he came out as what he is not in the 70's, this may be the reason he is being ignored by US corporation. It appears as if those who pay attention to him are average Joe and Jane who are tired of the world we live in or journalists in far away lands.
I may be entirely wrong....tell me if so.
az
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Jacque Fresco often says on his videos that he does not have the credential and that is why US big boys don't pay attention to him. On an old interview with Larry King WTVJ 1974, he is introduced as Doctor Fresco and a line of credentials is presented.
On his website under Jacque Fresco resume, he is presented as a social engineer. I wasn't sure what that meant exactly so i googled (sorry to those who dislike google): "is understood to mean the art of manipulating people into performing actions or divulging confidential information. While it is similar to a confidence trick or simple fraud, it is typically trickery or deception for the purpose of information gathering, fraud, or computer system access; in most cases the attacker never comes face-to-face with the victims. *Social engineering* as an act of psychological manipulation had previously been associated with the social sciences, but its usage has caught on among computer professionals.
I am not one to think that you have to have a formal education to have a voice but i know the big boys like that stamped paper. If he came out as what he is not in the 70's, this may be the reason he is being ignored by US corporation. It appears as if those who pay attention to him are average Joe and Jane who are tired of the world we live in or journalists in far away lands.
I may be entirely wrong....tell me if so.
az
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@Azilda, google is great for retrieving information, but like most/all information, its subject to interpretation, and the previous experience of the reader. The definition for social engineer that you got comes from "Information Security", which involves a would be attacker attempting to get an organizations employee(s) to divulge sensitive information, that can be used to infiltrate said organization(among other things). The title of "social engineer" that Jacque Fresco identifies with is very different, society is a SYSTEM, therefor, this system like any other, biological or not, can be "engineered". This change can be for our benefit, or the benefit
of a few.
come on serious? social engineering TVP is redesigning society which is our social structure that is what is meant by it common sense. there are so many disciplines envolved . to do this IN the system you would have to go to college for 80 years or so to be "qualified" that is what he meant by credentials
@Wald0.."I will say this though you guys' enthusiasm and hunger for something different, something fair and just, is inspiring"
thats what Im talking about. if the initial spark is strong enough it will spread like a wild fire
What can work in favor for The Venus Project is that we live in a time where anything can be sold via the interet, one can reach out across the world in a day.
It reminds me of The Blair Witch Project, a movie that was made with 60,000 and gross $250,000,000. Of course they have nothing in common other than the fact that The Blair Witch Project would never have reached so many people and create such curiosity without it's ad campaign that was launched on the net many months before it came out.
I just had a look at The Venus Project site once again, they show to have 16,834 subscribers, that's nothing. Here on SeeUat Videos there are 160,000. If they want to attrack more attention they have to show that people care, with numbers.
The project shows a lot of good ideas but it fails to show support and appears to be an educative boardgame by Jacque Fresco and Roxanne Meadows.
az
TVP is doing things in steps, they have to educate people first. we have to have a value change, otherwise we would corrupt the new city coming from the current environment.capitalism started it's collapse about a decade ago and slowly but surely is on a path of self destruction due built in mechanisms such as inflation and perpetual growth irrespective of goods.you can see this throughout the world with bail outs and national debts and prices. although society trys to pass it off like it's possible for economy bounce back. it can't they don't want panic, but in 5 years or so if we are in the same system they will have to form a police state by military force due to people losing their jobs homes cars everything this is just the way it is the bankers knew these early on and when it would happen, that is why they are buying up land corporations and institutions like fema camps if wish this wasn't so but my time in the military taught me these things then I expanded on them. look at statistics out there.
TVP is doing this now so when millions of people lose faith in this system we can design one where it is impossible to corrupt like RBE. they are making a motion picture that will depict life in RBE and help people to see we not only can do it we really don't have a choice
He needs Saatchi & Saatchi :)
For a group who claims that peace in the world is a possibility, it is sort of disconnected to see that they could not achieve that with their only partner The Zeitgeist Mouvement...no matter who's fault it was. It's always the other guy's fault!
az
Like magnets repelling each other ;)
What's the difference between a duck?
very easy to make assumptions like that when you know nothing of their relationship together during that time what they said or did at each other's houses who knows whatit is about I wasn't there but i'm surely not going to make assumptions based what I cannot possibly know
As i said...how can two mergers decide to split (no matter what the reason was) when the goal of The Venus Project is to unite the world knowing that there are zillions of reasons to fight every day between the countries.
I don't need to know exactly what happened, i see the result. It didn't work small scale but he thinks it is possible to do it big scale.
Let me ask you, do you have any concern at all with TVP? any?
az
I wondered the same thing you said right above this.I have one disagreement with TVP and that is in regards to spirituality. jacque is a atheist , I'm not I have talked to you previously about my specific spiritual beliefs.
I have been advocating a different way of life for as long as i have been an adult. I not only have talked about a different way of life, i have lived and continue to live a different way of life.
I couldn't care less how you believe in God, what should that be to me, why should i mind, why should anyone feel their spirituality like others, why should anyone want others to think like them?
I will say it again, I DO AGREE with much of what his philosophy is and the main subject i go along with is when he talks about education for the mass.
His experience with TZM shows me that he is not ready to make a change himself, that doesn't take away some of his work. His work is like a baton that will be passed on to someone else who may or may not elevate it to fruition.
There are a lot of unanswered questions, may be we don't need to answer them...who knows? May be his dream movie will be made by James Cameron and all of a sudden the world will catch the wave. until then...i and many others will ask questions, will have opinions, will doubt.
Are you ready to let go? I have already let go of what most people are attached to. Does it come with insecurities? yes especially the fact that i don't see too many people around me doing the same.
I know we need people who talk to convince others, but people who do convince more.
az
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For a group who claims that peace in the world is a possibility, it is sort of disconnected to see that they could not achieve that with their only partner The Zeitgeist Mouvement...no matter who's fault it was. It's always the other guy's fault!
az
========>
This was a let down for many following the movement, and the project. My conclusion was, Jacque's ego (other guys fault ; - )) was to blame. But on the other hand, theists who watched the first zeitgeist film we're in an angry frenzy after the Acharya S material (and the multimillion film views). So on Jacque's interview on that radio show, after being confronted about it, didn't want to be associated with TZM, because, their positions we're too radical to become popular (here is the U.S.A.). Probably a good move, as the majority here are christian, and their kids no matter how much evidence , will continue the (legacy, tradition, culture, (insert here what you like)). Some break out, like myself, but in today's societal structure, that is harder than it sounds. So IMO, he made the right move. It's a strategic move that will enhance the possibility that EVERYONE will receive the message, because many people, especially theist, self censor, AKA dangerous knowledge.... don't watch, or blasphemous book..... don't read. When looking for information, we often look for things that interest us, and that can lead us to a trap of information compartmentalization, AKA information bias.
I should add, both parties disagreed with each other, but they did not destroy each other in the process. Coexistence is possible, problem is, how not to destroy each other when SHTF, or when social pressures(caused by current system) cause us to do illogical and harmful things. TVP is aimed for the more mainstream audience, and TZM is for younger(not yet traumatized mentally) more optimistic humans that want change and are willing to work for a better future(without the corrupt incentive of paper bills we call money(although, currently, you'll starve and suffer if you don't have this man made creation, especially if your not the socially adept type)). TZM and TVP splitting up is fine, because we're in the transitional stage of human/social change, and certain humans are not receptive to message of TZM, but TVP is neutral enough to be acceptable watching material to a certain demographic. Still both groups have the nearly if not almost exactly, the same endgame, a world that we share, not a world that we plunder. This isn't kindergarten anymore.
hope this helps, best regards.
I think Fresco's view is as radical for the rich as TZM is radical for the Christians. If this was to be implemented....how many people would he have to please, how many cities, how many countries, how many religions, just how many of everything?
az
I have enjoyed watching this conversation grow, the views of the naysayers have value in that a problem or concern that is know is one that has a chance of being resolved. Those of the optimists show that we all still have enough hope and will to move towards something better. I don't think the Venus Project is the right way to go but everyone that has commented cares enough to think. That in itself is a good sign. We can undo our current way of life one little bit at a time, we can each be one little bit! There is no reason to stop wanting or having or working for better in our lives, we just have to be discerning in our choices. You can spend your hard earned cash but you can also vote with it. Sometimes you have to wait for what you want, but then it's so much better when you get it. That's not true for ice cream though. :)
as far as i'm concerned the naysayers don't have the knowledge to know either way and just want anything to rebel against like a teenage child, that is unless they are offering an alternative and have done the research.however I would respect opinions of informed people that don't go for it, I just haven't met those people yet. all of the people I have talked to were uninformed and were basing there information simply on what someone told them instead of researching it for a few years then forming an opinion like I did.
Man you have a lot to learn about trying to win the opinions and hearts of potential supporters. Saying you have never met anyone that has a legitimate concern about TVP and that all the naysayers are just rebelling like teens makes you sound like a pampas know it all, it makes it look as if you have closed your mind to all arguments and are just playing follow the leader. Of course there are legitimate concerns and there are very intelligent, well informed, and well meaning people that disagree with this approach. It is the movement’s job to address those concerns realistically and intelligently, not to belittle and dismiss. Don’t undo what these docs are trying to accomplish because you get angry that people will not see things the way you want, please. When I was in college I had to take several philosophy classes to complete my chemistry major. The first thing my instructor tried to explain to us is why philosophy was created and why it is important and still relevant. He explained that it was invented because well meaning, well informed, moral people often disagree with what may seem apparent to one culture or person and the ancients needed a way to intelligently consider options and make decisions without becoming divided. Human nature is to assume anyone that disagrees with a positioned you feel you have really researched, understand, and considered with an open mind must be either uninformed, unintelligent, or just plain bad. If you really support the scientific method apply it to your argument for TVP and use what works- validate people’s concerns when they are realistic, never insult anyone even when what you are saying is true because it only alienates them, use positive arguments don’t just harp on the negatives of the present system, fill in the details and don’t be vague, avoid counter culture lingo or sentiments, etc., etc.
your putting words in my mouth so I will rephrase my earlier statement. The concerns of people are addressed within the structure of TVP. It is the ONLY system ever constructed that eliminated all major problems and made it impossible to corrupt. every person I have ever met that did not agree with TVP, didn't realize these things where addressed once they did they weren't nay sayers anymore.Humanity has certain behavior today that is a response from the environment we live. Lets say your a parent the way you raise your child will heavily affect them when they are an adult. in that same way our environment affects us even more.certain behavior is rewarded and others frowned upon. this heavily impacts people.if you put someone in a desperate environment from birth, their biology will adapt to fit it.not the other way around.we need a system that eliminates it's problems from the start thats TVP anyone I met that was against it was unaware and if they did the research they weren't against it anymore that is what i'm saying.your so good at manipulation because that is what this environment rewards most people are people manipulate words to the point your not even getting the original material.
It doesn't eliminate all major problems, it creates one - how to get there from here without everything going wrong in the switch over. What about all the poorer countries, barely able to feed themselves. Where do they suddenly get the resources from to jump in, or do we continue to exploit places like Africa to build this eden for ourselves first. We can't suddenly make ourselves able to feed and cloth them, give them the freedoms we will have without someone taking advantage of their position in the meantime. The logistics alone would be next to impossible and any system with people involved is open to error and corruption.
your concerns are addressed in the link i posted further down
Africa is soooo much better off the way things are. And I just see a bright sunny africa coming in the next few decades! No. Really. Lets just leave it the way it is. I mean who has the time to change the world and save the human race from its impending doom? Just watch tv and go to the bank. All will be well!!! Nothing to see here! Just crazy fresco talking his crazy talk about people sharing and other commie nonsense! Id rather work in a factory all my life then travel and learn stupid stuff in books. And all this anti oil talk is just plain un-american i tell ya! Damn hippie commune is what TVP is! ............sarcasm*
JUSTIN BIEBER FOR PRESIDENT!
...yeah why not. probably it wont matter....
these shows always strike me as spineless - as if magic 'technology' is going to swoop down like superman and save everyone. they never talk about population control issues or earth's carrying capacity and how those effect their plans long term
This planet can support more people than you think, if it wasnt for the greedy elites owning hundreds and thousands of acres to themselves
but it's not sustainable. i've heard figures quoted as high as 11- 18 billion, but they act like it's a steady figure and it's not. the population will always be growing (exponentially) unless we control it ourselves.
i don't doubt we could mow down every forest and natural place on this planet to cram in as many people as possible and feed them, but it's not sustainable, what quality would you have shoulder to shoulder, and who wants to live in a world like that?
we can support about 50 times more population than today granted not with today system. these figures are put out by current system too. look it up
only if you think that the human population is the only one that deserves space on this planet.
and by saying 'not with today's system' you mean living like peasants / poor in India or africa (for 11-18 B total population) from what I've seen. that's not a quality of life that i would want for anyone. and you also leave off the fact that this is not a static figure, it's always a growing one. these docus never even touch on it.
Pessimism..thats the only thing holding humanity back. Everyone is going off the historical playbook. Its about deep vision people!! On a collective scale. It doesn't have to come about from crisis. It comes from passion..
Damn it, look at Disneyland!..lol
The evolution is forced by crisis. By changing conditions. The key word is forced. Mammals were not smarter or stronger than dinosaurs. They just adapted to new environment. People will not change their behavior unless forced to survive. So I anticipate a major crisis that will bring humanity to the brink of extinction. Only then people might change. Or not. In that case humans will be extinct. Natural selection.
Thank You Darwin...
um yeah look at the world around you i agree totally with that statement.
This is the second time that I've heard about the VENUS project but this time I am much more critical to the idea. To put is simple, such idea relies too much on the 'good will' of the people but how can such society prevent 'free-raiders': people who just what to consume resources but not contribute? Let's be honest that human, just like all living species, are evolved to have selfish gene and not all human can be taught to behave altruisticly in all possible circumstances. Additionally, an abundant environment will hardly be sustainable. As nature always shows, a relatively abundant niche will be quickly filled up by overpopulation, where the scarcity becomes norm which further select the best to survive. The example of 10 people on an abundant island will just be a counter example: those people will simply multiply exponentially to occupy the island until resources become scare, which has exactly happened when Homo sapiens reach American and Australia, which possibly leads to extinction of large mammals on these two continents. The human simply has no reason not to multiply considering the free available resources, except there are other social constrains preventing such 'birth freedom', which again considered by some as human rights.
I think the Native Americans should take advantage of some their reserves for this project. They will have to surrender a Casino or two first...
I think the real question on everyone's mind is, "Can we all run around the community naked?"
I never thought of that, but with one caveat, only naked women. Would be law. Where can I sign!!
Men are required at minimum to wear at least Tarzan attire.
Now who's being a bad boy? :)
"there are no Negro problems, or Polish problems, or Jewish problems, or Greek problems, or women’s problems…there are HUMAN problems. … We are not concerned with the divisions of segments of society.
“In my work I am not attempting to predict the future. I am only pointing out what is possible with the intelligent application and humane use of science and technology.”
“The Venus Project presents a bold, new direction for humanity that entails nothing less than the total redesign of our culture.”
“The Venus Project is a concept that could happen today but it is not up to me, it depends on what others do to help bring it about.”
Jacque Fresco, founder of the Venus Project.
Well, I suppose they are not making those US "Fema camps" and body bags for nothing, and with this doc and paradigm I suppose they will be making more.
We're not dead yet, we just have paradigm paralysis ;)
Awesome..'paradigm paralysis' ...love it!
Bad girl again??
No way Blue, all good and true :)
The Venus Project is brilliant. For this system to work humanity must become mature and awake if you will and like someone said below, the elite will have to go....nothing will change on a global scale unless people want it bad enough. I dont think the collective conscious of humanity is quite there yet but, Im still waiting...
It is very brilliant isnt it, and trust me one day humanity will mature, but also it doesnt take the whole world it just takes the people in power to stand up and the rest of the world will follow
and who do you say is in power? I choose not to follow those that are currently...
The rich elite and the politicians that work for them, but i also dont follow our current political leaders
"The best laid plans of mice and men often go astray"!
What are they going to do with the (Vatican) with its untold wealth, does anyone think that they will give up all their gold, jewels, trappings, all real estate holdings, all business holdings and assets and their fortunes of hard currency, and last but not least the (POWER) that they wield!! does anybody think for a minute that they will relinquish all of that?
They have their own gods army do not forget! and have many millions of sheeple following them.
Among other hurdles the religious majority will be the biggest hurdle of all. So good luck!
One day forest apes and plain apes separated in two ways of life. We are here and they are still there.
az
yes and today is the next step humans evolving again that is what RBE is all about
well, that is a very good point here is the answer to it. the quality of life of a human in a RBE would be about 15 times higher than today even the rich, eventually everyone will be on board
@jaquan fulton @John Jacquard
Sorry it was my mistake, the names are very close, and it has happened on SeeUat Videos numerous times. Should i erase the post? It is uncanny how you two write in the same style, and i am not talking about what the content is.
I have gone to the site and read, listen to the articles and videos. As i wrote earlier, i do like a lot of what he says, perhaps i don't have much hope for the world that surrounds me....some days i am more optimistic
az
i'm sorry if i offended you i know your a good person i just like to talk with people i respect your views as well
Is it a crime for me to not want to see my brothers and sisters starving and being deprived of their own resources, if jesus was here i wonder if he would care about someone taking from a grociery store or shopping mall for the sake of them getting by, i think not , because it is all ours anyways
I sometimes wonder what martin luther king would say about TVP
I think he would absolutely adore the idea, because the same proposals that king wanted tvp also wants, infact i think he would be a advocate of tvp, also you know some people on here think we are the same person because our names are similiar and our views are sort of the same
if we had real freedom i could choose to walk in a store and not participate in the monetary system take what i needed. i could go where I wanted with no id no bank loans i could go to any school and get any job.I could design my own electric car and drive it give me one example of choice in regard to society forced participation is no choice.
really great doc to watch.. refreshing considering the vast amount of doom and gloom tales that infest the internet today.
think creativily not critically.
The day a poor gets rich and doesn't start behaving like a rich will be the day the world will change.
Yes it will sprout from the 99% with the help of the ones that worked hard (because most of the 99% do) and were lucky enough to infiltrate into the gang of 1%.
Unfortunately (or fortune lately) the ones that cross the line, do not look back other than by throwing crumbs over the fence.
az
Az...I think, because of the age of the internet, the instant access to knowledge and communication on a global scale, the world will just one day say"Im exhausted", and will surrender its beliefs in a selfish monetary society.Rich or poor may one day be outdated terms. There will more than likely be new challenges, but they should be more in line with an intelligent and evolved human.
No, the day we get rid of money and capitalism is the day the world will change, more rich people will only bring more inequality and scarcity for other poirer nations
The more intense and more collective the vision the quicker humanity can make the paradigm shift too a world envisioned life Fresco's. I say we keep this thread alive.
OF course to keep this thread alive it needs a kicker:
"Jesus Christ would approve of this new world"
God dammit! here come the religee's! lol. Your big JC would be lost in this age of technological marvels/advances, he needs sheepherders. Well wait! not that lost, a lot of people are sheeple are they not?
Lol..see I knew it would work.. Just mention God and the thread lives on
my definition of sheeple would be only believing in the status quo. ie materialist science check capitalism check human nature check elitism check kick some kids a$$ for wearing walmart barand sneakers check my god has a bigger ding then your god check
just wondering about your definition of sheeple, what ideas do you personally have that are different from say richard dawkins
we'll create a new religion called live like christ instead of warshiping him wink wink,
Sim City 2120
let's examine the human body further. do you control every cell?(government) or do they work together without your knowledge and keep the system intact? when cells divide and act individually making communes this is called cancer this is what capitalism is today with our separate countries that exploit resources and steal rob kill understanding these things is so easy i can't figure you guys out. you want an example of a RBE? you don't need to build a city first look at each living system a plant a animal a human those systems function by working symbiotically, you can say whatever you want either humanity finds a way to do it by some name or we parish just as if in your own body cells and organs started to rebel you or I would die it is that simple.
Now with corrected grammar...
let's examine the human body further. Do you control every cell (government)? Or do they work together without your knowledge, and [still] keep the system intact? When cells divide and act individually, making communes, this is called "cancer". This is what capitalism is today, with our separate countries [which] exploit resources, and steal, rob, [and] kill. Understanding these things is so easy. [I] can't figure you guys out. You want an example of a[n] RBE? You don't need to build a city first. Look at each living system -- a plant; a[n] animal; a human -- those systems function by working symbiotically. You can say whatever you want; [but] either humanity finds a way to do it by some name, or we p[e]rish. [If} in your own body, cells and organs started to rebel, you or I would die; it is that simple.
Now the rebuttal...
Everything in nature has one of two choices (for want of a better word): ONE, to remain independent; or TWO, to assimilate into a greater whole.
Yes, the cells which make up complex organisms are symbiotic in nature. It has been suggested that the mitochondria in every cell in your body was once an individual organism. However there is nothing in that statement to suggest that the brothers and sisters of that ancient animal, who opted NOT to become symbionts, were necessarily driven to extinction.
By the same token, we in the macrocosm have evolved to become what we are thanks to millions of years of having successfully taken advantage of our environment (just like those greedy corporations you so obviously despise); while, at the same time, assimilating "willing symbionts" (again, for want of a better phrase) into our own bodies to become more than we were yesterday.
So, to sum up our existence: WE, as a life-form, are a delicate balance of BOTH anarchy and order; freedom and slavery; disease and cure (say it however you like) -- all assembled in equal measure, wherein the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. By this universal process, we have thrived and have gained dominion over this entire planet... for the moment. But there is nothing in nature which demands that this situation must continue. In fact, if nature is to be defined at all, it is by it's propensity for constant change.
Now, while the Venus Project may look good on paper, one has to remember that there are those who will hate it... those who will stop at nothing to see it destroyed, simply because it conflicts with their own vision for the future. If not destroyed, then corrupted beyond recognition. Thus the greatest plans of mice and men are laid waste.
And this plan is nothing new. It has been the dream of every revolutionary throughout history to create a sustainable civilization existing in harmony with nature. And having been tried so many times before, one has to ask oneself WHY it always comes to THIS in the end. And the answer is a question of balance.
Your rebuttal is flawed because you still base it on the society we live in now. You still base it on people wanting for things like money and status separating possessions. This model contains neither of those. It's a condition of our current society, not a desire woven into our being.
The only people who would be opposed to this are the ones who live in a level of elitism today. Go ask the approaching 100 million Americans falling below the poverty line if they would like a clean and open society where their freedoms, ability to get food and shelter were a right instead of a privilege granted to them by the ruling class.
Societies like this have never worked because we never had the appropriate technology to make them a reality, unlike today.
Just know that if a project like this never comes to fruition it will be because of greed by those on top and forced complacence by those on the bottom, but it will never fail based on some artificial notion of balance.
Many of the ideas that made up his plan are great and should be considered, even implemented right away for some. It is his plan that needs to be altered with other good ideas for it to (start to) work.
The way he lays his plan you cannot not think of how much money it would require to build such world. It's almost as if he is saying, let's build it and then throw the idea of money away after.
az
first steps first... i cannot even start to imagine the check list to bring society from where it is today in its madness to where Fresco dreams.
trial and error perhaps, but as you correctly observe... a transition must occur. this would involve the current wealth brokers/financial elite to be inticed towards investing in such projects.
I believe materialsim and high living will have to be made unfashionable in order for this to happen. this is perhaps the go point towards a utopian goal. This will happen through a culturual/artisitc revolution - something I believe will happen within the next few years.
Truth been told is that mega rich people are bored, its not about telling ordinary middle class to change their ways but the elite they apsire to be like. Once they change, so too will the masses.
Im excited. ha
Everyone says jacques idea is a utopian idea but the super rich have been living in a utopia for the past 150 years or maybe more with their castles, private islands, resorts, theme parks, private yachts & jets, so they are trying to have a private utopia, i wonder if they would defend you if it were the other way around you rich and them poor, dont be a dumbass and defend people who would let you die in a war for their own private selfish greedy goals of oil and new business ventures,better yet i wonder if you were on your death bed would they help with your med costs out of love like any caring individual would - i think not
money is a fake idea we agree on like santa claus it has nothing to do with what we are able to do, check out their website it would take a few months to go over everything I think people on here don't realize that and think this short little film explains everything jacque has many books videos confrences blueprints etc. only a small portion could fit in this video.
More than most people on this site, i have stated over and over again that money is just an illusion. So yes i agree with you, but we are not many to think and live this way, i know, I have lived with so little money ahead of me in the last 10yrs, most people think i'm either on welfare or i am doing miracles....to the point where sometimes i even catch myself thinking the same way.
food is the fare of the soil
it feeds the movements of my i
love is the fare of the soul
it teaches what the Self can be with others
money is just an illusion created by time
we got used to it and we accept it
What i mean by that, is our relation to money is an illusion and it is possible to change it.
So yes, money is sort of like Santa Claus, except money is neither your parents or Santa Claus himself. Money flow is a different way of life. It flows in circles of letting go and allowing in, and it rarely goes to where it will come back from.
az
very true
@Shawn MacKay
you stated "Societies like this have never worked because we never had the appropriate technology to make them a reality, unlike today. " the problem is many of these failed societies claimed the same thing. please show me these technologies, not a model or someones speculation but these actual physical items and the scientific studies that prove their ability to give abundance to all and make work a thing of the past. Fresco himself admits that until an audit of all resources is done that claim cannot be made.
a warehouse that hydroponically grows food. included talapia fish tanks they eat vegetables in their tank algae.the waste from the fish nutrients to grow food. solar panels on the outside.
desalinization plants that filter ocean water or rain water etc. both of these could be utilized as a start to feed people for free and provide theirs needs. next computers can be provied to children and systems of self education can be started similar to khan academy if every human had these three things it would be a small start that would make a drastic difference. next design all houses out materials dissaster proof wont break down over time concrete center plexiglass outer shell in circular arangements to distribute the weight, also make them snap like legos so buildings can easily be reassembled with no waste. next outer coating of houses is solar cells using nano some even wind powered self generation. these will go a long way last time I checked no civilization has provided these things for people at zero cost, yet today it is possible, look at your iphone now go look at your car with 100 year old sh*t engine. why such a difference? prpfit. eliminate the scarcity profit creates. how many time have you gone to the grocery store and it was mostly empty? they throw it away meanwhile someone is starving no money and pissed off at the world they have debt no education but they have iphones.
@John Jacquard
ok lets break this down can you show me large scale fish farming that works this way (you know proof)? next desalination is very energy demanding and the "waste" products produced are environmentally dangerous. please show me these homes that are long lasting,modular and disaster proof that don't rely on the finite fossil fuels and also show me the studies done and real world applications that are proof of concept? i agree that the world today has many faults and the current systems are flawed, but pointing out flaws in one system is not proof of the viability of another. giving kids free computers and free education sounds great and i am all for it (i used to be in IT) and i still refurbish old and unwanted computers that i get for free and give them to anyone who wants them.
look up lifesaver bottle 4000. look up Douglas Mallette.
#John Jacquard
i did it does not desalinate
sigh, i noticed
we owe our existence to collabortive efforts.. the surrival of the fittest individual is a myth, only groups may determine progressive adaptations.
what are the consequences of scarcity on living systems? do they affect things dramatically? is there is different between a man having nothing in a dangerous environment versus the same man having his needs met? I ask you this because you seem to think this has been tried before no not even 10% of it has been attempted. your assumptions are a great start but incomplete. we have not been able to eliminate scarcity in regards to humans basic needs until now, we have not been able to create a society based on the actual resources of this earth. hell, no civilization even had the idea things could be used up. we have never had the tech to have a full systems view of the planet monitor effective economy and use science to enrich everyone's life with real freedom until now. think of the concept of the iphone compared to a 1950's phone.now apply that type of advancement to every system we have in place.
your idea of "balance" is distorted. if your internal body was cancerous would that be balance?, having good cells and rebel cells? if your lungs stopped having working organs and ones that don't work? balance huh? think before you speak please
you do great work
really good way to think about it.. corporations, businessess, startups etc are all in affect seperate cells of operation thus cause for concern as cancer.
yes, and the values they run by are the same one we are taught starting in kindergarten with separation elitism etc. then one day you hear a different idea and say hey thats communism
the human body is symbiotic if your brain stole all the oxygen, (property) you would die. the organs work together and divide resources equally. all life functions in this system it is called symbiotic.each human is a cell of humanity even a 5 year old can understand this are you people saying your own body is a utopia? or communist?
If we think TVP is false then we should feel all life systems are false ie the trillions of cells that make your body and work together divide resources equal that must be a utopia or communism, or how about plants in fact all life works in a symbiotic system with no money dividing equally when things go wrong in these systems it is called cancer, we are the cancer on earth in regards to our operations today, each human is a cell of humanity it is simply evolution to care about all humanity and work together. do your lungs rebell and randomly shut down unless you pay a fee? how about does your brain steal all the oxygen from the rest of your body? no. if you spen 1 day studying the systems in your own body or any life it is easy to see that is a symbiotic system. humanity needs to operate in a similar way.
Given the way that this thread has (quite predictably) gone, I feel I should preface my post by saying that I'm not an out and out advocate of TVP. Along with many other people here, I agree that the current paradigm is a failed one. I would also go on to say that I believe that it's being propped up so as to serve only a select few, while year on year, quality of life, liberty, and freedom for the masses are increasingly eroded.
One of the major sticking points for most people (myself included), is that given how entrenched are the interests of the few, and how inter-connected and dependent our lives currently are, in this the current paradigm, the idea of switching to something like TVP, seems nigh on impossible. Here's my position though....
While I don't believe that TVP is currently an option, I do think that it serves a valuable purpose. I see it as a type of lightning rod, most likely a pipe dream, but that in itself can be something of great value. If we are to make this world a better place, then we first need to imagine it.
We will never change this world overnight, but what we can do is relentlessly chip away at its foundations. It might surprise some of the nay-sayers to know that this is already going on, and it's been growing year on year for a while now. Granted, people aren't by and large, building fancy little domed houses, but they are getting involved in the Transition Towns movement, and similar projects. Movements that are working to reduce dependency on the current paradigm, even if it's only in small ways, are a great start. If we want real change to happen, we have to be realistic, and work towards that which really is attainable. Claiming back our town centres from the corporate monsters, and protecting our local economies is a great start, and it's very do-able.
It's not about grabbing the 1% by the scruff of their necks and seizing their power, it's about each one of us, changing our minds, even if it's only in little ways. You've got to start somewhere. ;)
Let me give you an example. A while ago, I along with many others was dismayed to learn that Google shares its search data with the American security services. I seem to remember comments somewhere on this site, along the lines of, “well if they want to track you, you can't stop them” and “if you've got nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear.” Honestly, I could weep when I read comments like that. Both arguments avoid the truth, and I suspect that people adopt positions like that because it's the easiest way, it's the path of least resistance. The fact of the matter is, there are alternatives out there, and we should all be very afraid of Big Brother. It's about other people tightening their grip on us and our lives, and if history teaches us anything, it's that Big Brother will abuse its position as long as we allow it too.
So what did I do? Simple, I Googled for alternatives to Google, the irony of that isn't lost on me! And lo and behold, not only did I find an excellent search engine that doesn't track you, or store any data about you (DuckDuckGo search engine), but I also learned how to browse the internet completely anonymously, using the Tor browser. I don't use Tor very often, as complete anonymity comes with a performance penalty. It's good to know though, that options like that exist, because although you or I, in our comfortable little lives may not feel the need to use them, people in other even more oppressive regimes than our own, no doubt find them invaluable. So we owe it to our brothers and sisters overseas to support these kinds of projects.
I no longer use Google at all, as I find DuckDuckGo actually works better for me, and it feels nice knowing that I'm sticking it to the man, even if it's only in a little way. And if only one person reading this, switches from Google, then job done, that's two customers they've lost. From little acorns, folks.... ;)
Get involved in stuff, change your mind about things, become the change you want to see, even if it is only in little ways. Because if we're to make this world a better place, that's how we will make it happen. They're not going to make it easy for us, but by the same token, we shouldn't just roll over for them! And who knows, maybe one day, if we keep on pushing, we might even end up with funky domed houses and whatnot. ;)
@ Earthwinger,
Beautifully said, from the beginning to the end! I always love your posts, but this one has touched me particularly, thank you for that. Also thanks for the alternative search engines. It's great to know.
Now that is an approach I can accept with open arms. You are absolutely right, ideals serve as goals that, while they may never be attainable, set the standards just out of reach inorder to make us stretch and grow. They are very valuable, as long as we understand that most of us will fall short of them and that this doesn't make us bad or wrong, only human. That said, when we are talking about countries investing precious time and resources into something I think we have to be more realistic. As I stated above, a failed attempt at something like this could leave the globe in complete ruin at worst and, create wide spread wars, starvation, and poverty at the least.
thanks for sharing about DuckDuckGo, I don't like how google saves info either -- but I never knew about filter bubbles (watching a ted talk on it now). I can see how they could be useful, but then you are never getting the various sides of an issue... shifty... keeps people enforced in their (often mislead) ideas, which I think is very relevant to the problem of our current paradigm.
I feel my oak leaves budding ;)
Heya KooKookachoo :)
I recently found a really great search engine, and was reminded of this thread, so I thought I'd pass it on.
Check out, Startpage or Ixquick, they're both basically the same thing, very private search engines that work really nicely. :)
excellent post/comment !that's how a change in mindset begins!
@Earthwinger,
Well said. I just wanted to add thing or two... mostly about Google.
Google at this moment and for the last 6 years is a kind of monopoly on the Internet, which is strange in an open system like the web.
Having said that, Google has the luxury to do what they virtually want without being too much afraid of the competition (the other search engines).
Sure, there are alternatives to Google, but trust me, they also track the data. If they don't they will not know how well are they doing, in terms of popularity, demographics, etc. They would simply not know what they should do to improve their service. The real question is how much Google and the others are tracking and storing.
The other thing is that, you've being tracked by Google even without directly using it. You've being also tracked by the advertising agencies, companies. By tracked I don't mean followed, stalked etc, but they do actually know your online interests and habits. If not personally, they know that in an aggregated form.
Virtually every website you visit uses Google Analytics (free service offered by Google that generates detailed statistics about the visitors to a website) and Google Adsense (program run by Google that allows publishers in the Google Network of content sites to serve automatic text, image, video, and rich media adverts that are targeted to site content and audience). Simply you don't have to use Google Search or any of their products. By visiting a random website you already use, or you're involved into two of their products. That way Google has enough data about you.
Tor browser or any other software that makes you computer "invisible" on the net is useless if a court decides to trace the online activities of a person, company etc.
If you want to go really stealth, you need to to go way beyond that. Like not connecting from your home, ever. Not using your personal computer when connecting, ever. Possibly connecting only when you're far away from your home, for a very short period of time. But, if you're not hard core criminal why would you do that in the first place.
The only important thing that will hurt them when not using Google search and any of their products directly, is that they will lose a customer.
"And if only one person reading this, switches from Google, then job done, that's two customers they've lost."
interesting topic
That Google thing is weird. It kinda makes you want to just go back to the old ways of communicating...just writing a letter.
Some people here are evangelical in their devotion to this project. That is a sure sign that an ideology will be inflicted on us non believers. Cast aside all reason and individuality, become an ant.
Edit. And make sure your name is a variant of Jacque ;)
by the way ants get along quite well, and they help eachother, for example if ants need to get across something, they build a bridge with their bodies and work together like 1 mind, we could learn a thing or two from them- united we stand,divided we fall, what if the US split and each state wanted individuality, i wonder if you would be activist to get the states back together, even a 1st grader wouldnt speak the nonsense you speak, even they know together we will always be stronger than individual thinking, a company like apple inc. brings all their ideas together and look what it made them
Apple? Seriously? Couple of excellent docs on here about ants. Love them, don't want to be one. The hive mind is not for me. I don't want to be a Borg ;)
thats my real name by the way, i also thought it was a coincidence lol
I'm off to work, enjoy your day ;)
in ny its 3:57, la its 12:57, where are you at china, getting ready for work
Uk, its a beautiful day :)
Britain ay, that explains why your so simple minded, if it was up to britain, america wouldnt have been independent and would have stopped the progress in america therefore leaving us in the dark ages,no cell phones no computers no light no nothing, remember it all was made in america, enjoy your day at your private dictatorship, no im just playin, really enjoy your day
Sorry to interrupt but.... the first computer was invented in Briton, Radar was invented in Briton, the telephone was simultaneously invented in Briton and America. In fact, the telephone was invented by three people at the same time, Alexander Graham Bell won the law suit in America by having proved he thought of it first by only a few days.
Electric motor, internal combustion engine, jet engine, locomotive, polyester plastic, just to name a few items invented by Britons...
You may be right, but i bet if america had lost the independence war, there would be nothing you see today on the scale you see it, we would all be in the dark ages, like jacque says if you still dont understand that when you punch that timeclock you walk right into a monarchy, better yet if america never were independent, hitler would of been fuhrer of the wirld because he conquered most of europe if not all, remember we had to save that ass about 70 years ago from oblivion, we were so close to the end, read a ww2 book dufus duck
If the Muslims had never been conquered, we all would be under Islam.
If the Spanish had not conquered Mexico, there would be no Mexicans.
If Jane hadn't driving on a winding mountain road during a heavy thunder storm, she wouldn't have been in a terrible accident.
Point is...'If this' and 'if that' and 'if only' is the same as wishing. Wishing never makes anything so, except in Disney movies..
good now keep that logic for a moment, if we create a healthy environment we will have healthy people. if we are forced to be subservient we will harvest anger. if we have property we will have jealousy. if we have elitism we will have starvation and death.
I'm going to send some money. When everything goes belly up and this new system kicks in I want to be first in line at the Library of Everything You Ever Wanted But Can't Keep. If you want to borrow anything from me it will cost you. You go and steel me something i want and we can swap.
no one will borrow for you if they can get it for fee, can you sell your tap water for hundreds of dollars today? how about blades of grass? can you bottle the air and trade for gold?
Will I be able to get a 9bar and a packet of rizla and take a month of work and still help myself to anything I want? Or will I have to work in order to have what I want?if so I might as well carry on as I am now. Also wanted to point out that without money or bartering there will be things you won't have freedom over.
what if bill gates,carlos slim,warren buffet,donald trump,lakshmi mittal,larry ellison,steve jobs(rip),oprah winfrey and all the other extremely wealthy people & people in power agreed with jacque fresco i bet my last breath that all the people who didnt agree with this before would all start to believe then, why because the rich and powerful said so, prime example-nobody even knew or disliked iraq until the powerful elites said they were the enemy,now we all hate that country and there people for no reason other than because bush said they are the enemy and it doesnt stop there we all believe what ever they say and do whatever they say because we are sheep, instead of criticizing, why not add something to jacques idea that you saw was flawed, you patch up this capitalistic system that cares nothing about you if you dont have money or power so why not patch up a system that does care about your well being/ this world is ours not the 1%-wake up people
very true the intellectual climate of any society will always reflect those needs of the elite that is why RBE is about freedom for all people
also 1 more thing, jacque fresco has never said that what you see in this documentary and other videos about the venus project are the final designs and ideas, its just what he has came up with from his mind, once we all come together and contribute our ideas, it will be even better, its not just jacques world its all of ours like he has said so many times,would you would rather contribute your skills towards a system that will betray you if you run out of money or are unable to work or would you rather contribute to a system that will never turn its back on you regardless of your health or funds/ its common sense-wake up people
i cant understand why there are so many unopenminded comments about jacque's idea for a more sustainable and peaceful world and lifestyle,you have people saying that a resource based economy wouldnt work but capitalism has worked for 100's of years as well as dictatorships and many other outdated systems, if capitalism wasnt devised yet and we all had to choose a system today would you choose the system that says 1% of the population will control the majority of our resources and our decision making for their own selfish needs or would you vote for the system that says we all control the resources and all have an equal say in decisions which is the venus project/ i bet my life that the venus project would be the system that we choose, like jacque says the only reason you cant imagine a world like this is because you have never known that world- wake up people
We might choose a different system but we would still end up with the one we have now. Unless the Venus Police are allowed to shoot dissidents on sight. I guess they could put explosive chips in our brains at birth, just in case.
if you paid attention to the doc and have studied jacques ideas, you would know that he said greed, hate and bigotry all come from the current socio economic system we have now(which it does), who would go against this if they have the necessary resources to get through life, most crime would vanish overnight,think about it most crimes are monetary based, so why would there be any dissidents if our way of thinking is different and another thing your basing your ideas on the current system we have now because in a system like this we would be educated
OK, make people think differently. Start now, convince me. If you can do it here and now with nothing more than words you might have a chance.
if you put some of that hate and non optimistic thinking towards this current capitalist system we have, this world would be much better off, but we will see if the system you love so much cares about you when you are a senior citizen in need of some transplant or operation and your health insurance wont cover you because you didnt read the fine print that they didnt want you to read so they can save money and be more profitable for a few rich people and so the hospital turns you away and let you die like in the movie john Q- wake up brother, let me guess im not your brother!
You've got me wrong. I don't hate and I certainly don't have any love for this inefficient, greedy system. I do however fail to see why I am to be lambasted for not falling in with a scheme based on something as insubstantial as 'be nice and share' I may be sent home to die by an NHS hospital and I hope at that time I will know my time is up anyway. I don't need another brother but I always have room for a new friend ;)
i might have went a little too far on you, but you shouldnt have to feel its your time when its not especially if the only thing that is holding you back from living longer is money and also i would doubt that tvp is a scheme, i mean jacque is like 95, what gain could he possibly be getting out of telling everyone the truth of how things are and should be, its not like he's saying pay me and then i will tell you guys whats wrong with this world, last time i heard this documentary and every other tvp video was free on youtube and other sites, and the bible says be nice and share (is jesus a scheme),but if you want a world where your children are not safe and can be killed by someone less fortunate then them because that person was deprived of there resources be my guess
I tried to find where communism includes a worldview of finite resources and creates a system appropriately but can't. I can't find where communism and socialism make no government no prisons no laws and use technology to eliminate problems, and I can't find where it provides all needs and services to all people with no servitude but simply cannot. so if it does not contain these thinks that's a large difference since these things are what TVP is about. I tried to find how a utopia can exist while taking into account the emergent properties of society and technology but I cannot if this is true thats a large difference to the venus project. I tried to find how it would be impossible to implement a system that makes these issues it' priorites, but It is possible imagine the processes of planning a manned space mission you would follow these steps without any offense. please someone enlighten me thank you
@Over the edge-" there are finite resources and therefore abundance of all is impossible"
The resources we need to thrive on are in abundance and infinite or are recyclable or are in a circular ecosystem
The Sun
The Wind
The Waves
Water
Crops/Food
Dirt
Recyclable Materials
@Brandon Costa
while someday these technologies might replace fossil fuels we are not there yet and the construction,delivery and maintenance of such technologies rely heavily on fossil fuels. agriculture is a huge consumer of fossil fuels. i hope we get there i really do but we are not there yet and may never be. until somebody can show the technology is available and the resources are there this remains an idea not based in fact
@john jacquarse
i love your devotional attempt & hope you have clearance from your peers .
if you want to help the world then ,do not produce so much waste at home as you are wasting time here.
you are running against a brick wall by trying to convert the inconvertable.
did you know that at the time of the wright brothers, the scientists at the time said flight was impossible?i'm not trying to convert if you said 2+2=5 i would simply try to explain why it's 4 but in the end it would be up to you listen. either we create a symbiotic system or go extinct.i'm doing my part what are your contributions?
Well this is something that has too start on a small scale. Im guessing it wont start here in America, we are too stubborn, proud and anal with our beliefs. Im guessing somewhere in the Scandanavian area will we see the first successful community buily around Fresco's (or similiar party) idea. I'm sure we will be calling it the beginning of 1984 by Orwell.
What part are you doing? When you have the kind of passion you describe here, your part should be nonstop and in all fields. Until you do that, you are just talking.
You give me the impression of someone who reads Fresco and his Venus project as if it was a cool scifi with great ideas.
Don't take me wrong, i have listened to some of his stuff and quite a bit of it sounded very humanitarian and smart.
I still think he needs to establish such places "cities" "communal villages" as models, not just plastic and papier mache models of cars and houses.
It reminds me "although very different" of Osho Center in India. He had a vision, it was established on grounds and furthered by many people.
az
Well at this stage having people find out about TVP is very important. Secondly the only negative things I have ever heard someone say about it were things that were misunderstood. We all have to do our part to make this happen. What I mean by that is it isn't Jacque's job to create this or that. he spent 70 years getting it to where it is at this point it will take all countries and all people, to create a symbiotic system that is in harmony with nature. Nothing he speaks of is opinion just fact and any person is welcome to read all his books watch the hundreds of videos, and continue on that path in each discipline learning it and the relationship between them all.he answers all concerns in all areas.he backs it all up. we need to be like that ourselves. I think if each of us spent some hours a day self educating non baised on each subject, with little regard for stauts quo we would be doing a large part when we talk to people. I talk to people all the time and change their life granted in person but for not having money I can still contribute. Also we can setup TVP lectures in our local communities and have your concerns answered directly by him. Next it is possible to go on tour to see TVP in person.They have a recommended reading list that covers many areas of concern. It is through assisting others can we make the greatest impact.
TVP is currently working on a major motion picture to depict life in a RBE to reach millions of people and show them the benefits of such a system and answer many concerns. Currently TVP have lectures all over the world, and are making it on major tv networks newspapers festivals etc.
Now that our current system is collapsing and people are losing everything they will give up on a outdated system that breeds corruption and greed we are going extinct.
I am just a man. I try to advance myself everyday and expand upon my knowledge in a non biased way. since this cost's no money I can learn everything I can about our reality in a reductionist manner, then use that information to construct a vision of the whole. I can then use this to help people at the point they are at. everyone I ever met has genius capability.even the disabled. I try to bring this out starting from areas of interest they have , then expand upon this using the same system. ie I teach musical instruments, audio engineering, production, songwriting, composer, mastering , live sound graphics computer programming art ie painting oils sculptures,writing poetry. these areas come the easiset to teach because I spent the longest time on them other areas include psychology anthropology biology systematics neurology Environmental science religion philosophy . the information is all there. If people restructure life style with scheduling and patience. it is possible to learn all these things for the purpose of having a valid worldview based on real life not what someone told you.
what part am I doing in my regular life with everyday activities? I do not support the establishments perpetuating the current paradym. examples. I have never owned a car, no bank account use a safe, no shopping at stores cept grocerys, I spend and make the least amount of money humanly possible for my environment, no tv (commercials) get internet news and from multiple countries, least amount of paperwork ie identification etc.least amount of garbage recycling use no fossil fuels low power devices and basically whatever i can do the best i can . I primarly do bands recordings graphic design lessons mostlley free though.I'm saving to bring a bunch of people to TVP. our current society does not teach us to know about all fields it is our job to do it.
in regards to regular life situations, i do things in a way not to support banks automobile industry major corps etc. in my personal life i utilize self education such as khan academy and countless ways researching separate disciplines free of bias to construct a worldview on history and the state of affairs then help others in that direction i am nobody special i just do the best i can i take out no loans things like that no car fossil fuels do most work for free live minimalistic lifestyle
i contribute by all means to my disposal ,from bio food upto minimum use of the powergrid,no car & active in the german occupy movement & other groups,which i help to publish(with recycled paper only).happy? i just had the feeling that you are beating(preaching) this precious topic which is counter-productive to 'converting' other people,just out of my own experiences.keep it up,we're on the same side!
i just saw that i mispelled your name in my first reply....excuse moi ,was not intentional,sorry!
an endless argument to the state of the nation .
@John Jacquard
I don't know how you have DISQUS set up but I am sent email copies of original posts almost the very second that they are posted. Either the moderator has been deleting your posts or you come back and edit them to say something else. I suggest that you have been doing some corrective editing. Your personal, derogatory statements are really not designed to influence anyone are they?? Seems like you want to drive certain people away so as to not interfere with any propaganda...
@dufas_duck,
All of his inappropriate comments were deleted. They do not appear on the thread but you've got them over email.
Thank you Vlatko.. Puzzle solved.....
i dont even know you. how could I set up your email to receive something?
@John Jacquard
Therein lies the problem. Did you actually read the message or did you glance at it and your usual anger flared up from seeing my handle??
I said that I don't know how you have DISQUS set up, mine is set up to send me emails of posts within a few moments of being posted. I did not say that you were emailing me at anytime........
If you haven't done it already. go up to the start of the posts, click on the DISQUS logo, a drop-down menu will appear. Click on 'DASHBOARD"... This will take you to a page on the DISQUS web site that you can configure to show posts pertaining to you plus a few other things. Bookmark the page and you can check in at your leisure for any answers or questions posted to you..
i am all for a more equitable world level playing feild,eliminating poverty and hunger. but there are too many assumptions made by this idea. i will list but a few
- there are finite resources and therefore abundance of all is impossible
- there is already a group with everything they could ever want (the super rich) and they still want more. what proof is there the masses will be any different.
=the remaining resources are controlled by either individuals,countries or companies and where is the proof that they will be given up freely because if force is an option count me out
-who gets the first units of a new technology or product. logic states that someone has to be first and that creates a class system and what will stop these lucky first recipients from using these at the time scarce items as a form of currency
- where is the proof that these amassing will even exist
-logic would dictate that there will always be a requirement for some to work and where is the proof that these people will work without compensation.
- if there are no laws or jails what will stop the psychopaths, bullies .greedy and so on from taking advantage of others. if someone claims to eliminate these things i need proof
now before i get attacked again or asked a ton of questions or for an alternative. this is an idea that you support and all i am saying is i don't see the plausibility. the burden of proof doesn't lie with me i am not making a claim here only asking questions.
@John Jacquard
Actually, I have. I have in my possession all the Venus project videos including this one and most of the Zeitgeist videos. I have been to both web sites and asked questions. All answers were 'pie in the sky' wishful thinking.
While peace and social harmony are desired goals by everybody that I know, basing a complete world society on undiscovered technologies and possible future inventions is somewhat in the realm of Flash Gordon or Star Trek. Claiming that the technology now exists to create any and all of the described mechanisms to support the 'new' society is a fallacy.
The society that the Venus Project and Zeitgeist is aiming for is socialist/communist at it's core no matter which way one looks at it. Take away the glitz and glamor of the vehicles, buildings, and support systems, the basic promise is the same as espoused by Marx and Lenin in the beginning. Instead of a 'workers paradise', we now have a 'peoples paradise'
Adding in your your assumptions about what other people do or don't know plus your insistent denigration of anyone that doesn't agree with you gives a large clue as to what people would have to look forward to. So much for independent thought. One must toe the Venus party line or else...
As your name predicts, you in fact, a dufas. Maybe learn to dream? It's not that hard... When people told the Wright brothers that man could not fly, they built a wooden wing, and proved the world wrong. Grow up dude. Seriously, your rhetoric is SOOOOO old and tired.
Actually, I am proud of the dufas_duck handle. It was given to me by a class of school kids. I was helping them write and organize an illustrated book concerning how to be polite and generous with other people. The kids did all the writing, illustrating, printing, and binding. They all did a marvelous job. The main character that they came up with was Dufas Duck. They began calling me Mr. Dufas Duck. Many of them are in college now and I occasionally see them. They still smile and greet me as Mr. Dufas Duck.
So, much like John Jacquard, you make derogatory statements without knowing the facts.. Maybe it would have been a little better to ask why someone uses a particular handle instead making personal statements in order to bolster your self image.
I only have spoken in regards to your posts , not any opinions so I don't think of you negatively or anyone just that something they say might be incorrect hay nobody's perfect but we do have the capacity to adavance
please list a topic, then I will tell you all the facts on it we can clear this up right now.
Yeah, My post were idiotic and I was brainless....gee whiz, how could I have taken that personally, I must be as stupid as you indicated... or are you trying to give me a left handed compliment??
i don't think negatively tward you sorry if it came across as such. the words you wrote earlier painted a different picture of you than when you described your life later on. it is excellent how you teach you child and the projects involved in
Yes, the Wright brothers had a dream and acted on it. So did Hitler...
oohh, zinger! This relating things to hitler is so childish, grow up. I used to jokingly call friends nazi's(as a child), because I was taught at a very young age, they are inherently evil people. Turns out, as I grew up, I realized(around high school years), their just humans like you and me, the problem started when the values of the german society at the time, we're corrupted, by popular public speakers(aka hitler). People like hitler, and his elite ilk, take advantage of a bad situation, and incite voilence(like some talk radio pundit's create fear, and use their platform irresponsibly, and instill fear in our human psyche), and give people promises of a better tomorrow, and the important bit here is, the solution is arrived at in their corrupt mind, through war, and violence, and acquisition of resources(human, and non-human). None of the solutions proposed in these films, come anywhere near what happen in nazi germany. Anyone insinuating or stating this is wrong, and its a fallacy, and an incorrect statement. What it really looks like to me, is fear, out of ignorance of the unknown.
more decay I see
okay lets restart, I am simply interested in speaking with you.I do not think negatively tward you, just having a conversation. im curious about the 'pie in the sky' stuff because the tech exists right now please give example. the future inventions would come like they do now, but we have everything right now to do this. please give just 1 example of socialist/communist because i have tried to find it but i can't maybe you can help me see it your way i'm open. the last paragraph I don't know what your referring to i came across the venus project years after my research on most topics and how they fit together to create a whole. It seems like your seeing TVP as something it isnn't which i totally understand maybe i can help or maybe you found things I haven't about it
Pick up some books written by Marx or Linen. Then study the books below. If you can't see the similarities, nothing i can say will mean anything to you....
1. Socialism Past, Present, and Future – Michael Harrington.
2. The Essential Works of Socialism – Irving Howe (yeah, maybe an anthology is cheating, but his selections are representative and excellent)
3. The Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts of 1868 – Karl Marx
4. Design for Utopia – Charles Fourier
5. Foundation – Isaac Asimov (sold me on the whole concept as a teenager)
6. Woman on the Edge of Time – Marge Piercy (her utopia was compelling, but also disturbing)
7. Marx’s Concept of Man – Erich Fromme (sold me as a teenager on the concept of alienation)
8. A Theology of Liberation - Gustavo Gutierez
9. The Shape of Things to Come – HG Wells
10. Rerum Novarum – Pope Leo XIII (much more radical than either Catholic conservatives or secular socialists want to acknowledge)
thank you
There doesn't seem to be any society change documentary that can make it through a discussion without the fear of communism or socialism, lol. You guys are the ones drinking the koolaid. Its the same koolaid that killed 50,000 American troops and many many more Vietnamese during the Vietnam war. Capitalism is not free of mass murder. And how many American's are in prison compared to the rest of the world per capita? Do I feel any safer because of this?
At any rate can we just throw out all the labels and talk seriously about a better world? Do we plan on living the rest of our lives and the rest of our generations lives with the competition guidelines? Its such bullshit. Come on we are so spoiled, we get anything we want and it doesnt make us any happier. It is possible to live in basic abundance for our basic needs for free. Its called automation. We should be living all our lives learning. And there will be no need for central leadership once we undo all the brainwashing. We are living in a learned response world. Lets undo the garbage in our heads. Be positive people!! Get the crap our of your heads!
humanity cannot continue on like we have we will need 5 earths in a few decades for things to stay like this (population growth resource consumption)
monetary system is collapsing right now . slavery starvation war and profit dominate. in a few years most people will lose their houses jobs cars etc and give up hope on the current system, TVP is offering a system of applying scientific method to society just as you would to build a laptop or engineer a building, we can solve problems .the whole system has to be updated equal to technology. it is up to all of us to evolve to a non cancerous state, or go extinct. what should we do? self educate on all disciplines, then see the bigger picture? or base our beliefs on what our grand parents told us? if we spend 4 hours a day researching facts about each topic before we know it we will have a much greater idea of the state of affairs.
From each according to his ability, to each according to his need? Check. Scientific central planning instead of individual decision-making? Check. Rapid forced industrialization? Check. One world government of like-minded people run by the enlightened? Check. A love affair with modular one-size-fits-all apartment blocs? Check. The belief that private property causes more problems than benefits? Check. A complete negation of actual human nature and the utopian desire to create a new type of man? Check. The belief that central planning by more enlightened people will solve the problems of scarcity? Check. This is not a vision of the future, but rather of the past, as in 1950's Soviet Union. And we know how well that solved societal problems then, don't we!
From each according to his ability, to each according to his need? Check. Scientific central planning instead of individual decision-making? Check. Rapid industrialization? Check. One world government of like-minded people run by the enlightened? Check. A love affair with modular one-size-fits-all apartment blocs? Check. A complete negation of actual human nature and the utopian desire to create a new type of man? Check. The belief that central planning by more enlightened people will solve the problems of scarcity? Check. This is not a vision of the future, but rather of the past, as in 1950's Soviet Union. And we know how well that solved societal problems then, don't we!
Perhaps one thing someone should do is build a virtual online world built around Fresco's concepts. It could be set up using mathematical equations and real physics, chemistry, biological systems, etc. Online users could be residents and workers with specialized skills. They could participate in virtual education programs to enhance or learn a new skill based upon their desires and needs of the community. The program should try to be set up in such a way as to engage the online participants real emotions.
Set the program in motion and let a third party of annalists see how stable the system runs and try to extrapolate how the system would run in a real physical setting.
this dream is only realizable with a drastic cut of populace ie third world war.the remaining survivors should have the luck of saving accumulated knowledge & technology to start from scratch & then transmute into a resource based society.....or,& i strongly believe this,that human evolution will one day transmute itself into a balanced existance with it's homeplanet,symbiotic if you will .either that or extinction.we are just spectators of our own evolution at the moment & a look in our own history (& archaeology) proves this right. so we can wait or we can work for a better future & hope we don't need a world catastrophe!
I think the big debate for everyone regarding Fresco's views is the 'human factor'. Remember, he stated, there is only the environmental influence, there is no gentic factor that can be attributed to greed, violence, etc. Its all about society, culture, parents...its basically all brainwashing from the day you are born. And this is EXACTLY why many if not most on this forum are unable to see how Fresco's ideas could actually work. He also stated he does not believe in a Utopia but in building a society that continually adapts and changes as our knowledge changes.
people are misunderstanding. jacque is showing examples of what can be done we all need to create it the way we want if you want a different house this society he speaks of is completely freedom
Well, Jacque Fresco sure has incredible visions for the future and this all sounds like the solution to everything. But he's forgetting one simple thing in all this: the human factor. It's not only about having access to everything you need. It's way more complex than that. Or how do you explain the insatiable greed of some rich people? Even if this project would come to life, or at least a very large group of people would start this change, others would fight it, because it also is (always has been) about control. And this is where the human factor comes at play again.
He's right at some points though. Yes, we can or must do better than today in terms of pollution e.g. or there will be no future at all in a couple of decades.
human behave in a way that the society rewards. now in a monetary system lies theft manipulation separatism selfishness etc are the foundation this has been our conditioning.we are going extinct if we continue like this its up to each person to take responsibility for this planet and humanity all these negative comments are a cop out and a failure to recognize the state of affairs. similar to how a human body is made of trillions cells that work together all organs working symbiotically to function. even a blade of grass works in harmony on a cellular level. we are humanity each human is the cell. there is only one way we can survive without going extinct, even a 4 year old recognizes this unless they are conditioned otherwise, which is what our schools, jobs, status quo do to us. we are not living in accordance with natural law period. money is a mechanizm for manipulation. it served well at one time but it is time to advance. it's disgusting that we have phones at this tech level and cars 100 years obsolete (profit) our social system is set up to control the masses (profit) we are creating scarcity by not monitoring the earths resources and making the earth and all life number 1. we are trained to look at differences in humans and put them down,we are told that humans are the problem, but if we eliminated problems we eliminate the behavior. ie problem of world hunger? create a self sustaining food factory sky scraper on every corner . evil and abhorrent behavior ? give people food water education for their families eliminate drudgery and subservient jobs provide people with a system in which it's immpossible to steal. make the entire earth a public library eliminate ownership and property by allowing all people true freedom for this first time. do you think freedom has ever existed on this planet? yeah paper or plastic.... coke or pepsi.. real freedom means create all systems like the internet and public library's. i bet you crime virtually disappears. every person loves their family ,want's an education and food and water we have the means to do this right now on the planet look at your iphone and ask yourself what would it be like if everything was utilized in the same way. imagine if every computer company made 1 laptop how great it could be imagine if all architects designed 1 sky scaper imagine if all car companies designed 1 electric car.
If resources are distributed evenly, they wont make any difference. It would be a waste to distribute them uniformly. To create advanced knowledge and technology, a great ammount of resources is required. Nothing in, nothing out. It is a fact of life. And it is that tech which will save those who dont have access to certain resources. Carrying capacity is not a problem because we can change it through technology. Best, Aldo.
oops! sorry, wrong site. I didn't realise this was the John Jacquard channel.
1 STRIKE kidding i have been studying these topics for years also it is so important for humanity to survive we cannot if we don't advance as a whole
Instead of Chomsky and Ghandi we need to turn our youth on to Trotsky and Lenin and not from the propagandist West but from their own writing and those of reporter's like John Reed who wrote Ten Days that Shook the World. We need philosophy as much as we need technology and most scientists are materialists ( philosophically) as was Marx......then just maybe we can have the kind of world advocated by Jacques and company.
RR
Bingo....... Marx would be proud...
very proud........of capitalism repackaging his ideas with the choice of paper or plastic coke or pepsi democrat or republician yes real freedom we have
Nope, there hasn't been any real freedom in America since about a week after it's founding. Each subsequent year, laws, rules and regulations have been put into place, squeezing freedoms more and more.
I still don't understand how you can suddenly make off-hand statements out of the blue about what a person is thinking or how they feel when a particular subject has never been brought up. There is some sort of disconnect here..
Self educate yourself , dont come preach the stuff you learned from the elites schools, all those sicialist believed in different things and even if there are similarities,i would rather have socialism over capitalism anyday, rhe only reason you dont like marx's ideas are because the elites said so and you dont even know it, i wonder if bill gates, warren buffett and carlos slim agreed with jacque would you still not like the idea, i think not sheeple
I have educated myself.. I've read Marx and Lenin.
You assume you know what I think and how I arrived at any conclusions I might have. You are just another 'think my way or the highway' types that would force people into your view on life, very similar to those 'sicialists' you mentioned...
I can make assumptions too...
i don't see the resemblance
I really don't think you ever will see the resemblance.
Great doc!
"I pledge allegiance, to the earth"..should be everyone's mantra.
i love the golf courses on the edge of the city, sadly, no new clubs each spring i'd suggest! But seriously they should recognize more the mechanisms the rich and powerful restrict us with(credit-debt-inefficient jobs), the lengths they will go to maintain their supremacy, and what atrocities confront us if we (poor and downtrodden / honest people) do not stand up shoulder to shoulder saving ourselves, our planet and every soul yet to come into existence. Jacque should work his idea with a) an aboriginal city in western/central Canada (perfect) b) the (US) natives I believe would love this as an alternative c) all developing nations (world bank hate that) d) any crazy ass dictator/ nation that wants to have an advantage over the crumbling governments of which they oppose. (Hitler would build one of these cities for sure.)
In reality my mind cannot find the proper place where this change should begin. But i know it will require at least 20% of humans boycotting the rich.
Last thought, maybe the British should give back to Argentina the Falkin Islands, with the understanding the Argentinians would transfer it to the Venus Project (would it be a nation?)
it's not jacque's job to make a RBE it is mine and yours if we want humanity to survive after the collapse in the next 5 years of the monetary system he spent 70 years developing a truly free society.he has contributed more than anyone on this planet
Perfectly reasoned and stands up to reality... what's the hold up? Rhetorical question: intentional ignorance and time baby. just time.
And the indubitably juvenile comment posted as my reply was deleted- a testament to the first of the two factors I cited in our hold-up.
This would be wonderful, except for one thing - there are people who just want to watch people die and things burn. We must always be vigilant against those people, always ready.
those people are like that because their needs are not met , and our society teaches that right now look around at the establishments we need to create a healthy world that is what this is about the opposite of commune
i love how any negative comment people post on this is based off their imagination not the facts that were discussed or the content at hand
A brilliant idea, and one much needed must i add. However, I think some of the natural resource ideas are a little elaborate. It would have been more convincing if they showed examples of these clever inventions in practical use.
Does anyone know if there is a small scale project of this city taking place anywhere? I guess that's how we'll determine whether it is going to be successful or not - Fair play for the chap coming up with creative ideas to solve our monetary system crisis though. It really puts me to shame. I'm kind of like Benjamin the donkey from 'animal farm'. I know corruption and injustice dominates our system but all I do is complain and make no real practical effort to change it. Let him and his determination for positive change be an inspiration to us all :D
There already exists a place. Have a bunch of Venus Project believers move into the Fresco compound. Ask him to start the new society right there. He has a smattering of the buildings already in place and he has already stated that it will be a share and share alike world so he shouldn't complain about people moving in to his facilities....
what your describing has nothing to do with the venus project. which shows how ignorant you are. when people lose their jobs houses cars etc there going to give up home the monetary system is collapsing right now that is why TVP is trying to explain we have to intelligently manage the earth in a symbiotic relationship, looks like you too busy creating your own assumptions instead of listening and learning
All the worlds greatest minds, inventors, scientists all the characters you read in books in school etc.... that literally gave you all of the science and stuff that we use today and apply it daily in our lives....something simple as a keyboard that you use right now....once was a vision of a future.
This vision should be perceived and it will benefit to all of the human race.
This is like an amped up version of the 'Mosquito Coast'. Give this man 1 billion dollars. I want to see what would happen.
See his home? I think he spent that already!
I do not give a F. what are you discusing here? ma$turbating on how we good can be? ummmm most people do not give a FFFFFFFFFFF!!!!! no mater you do !!!!!!!! animus
In my opinion, if this gets even close to being achieved, the first people who will jump in and try to control are the Elites of course.
it is a system that eliminates a way to control
i cant see people pulling this off anytime soon. human greed always finds a way
Can't help but wonder, what do the major majority, the religious, have to say about this pipe dream? Probably end up causing more wars. Don't forget they always need more money!!
pipe dream? i would have expected more tahn that from you , i guess your not as intelligent as I once assumed
@John Jacquard:
Nothing else to say except your insult and ad hominem attacks Eh?
The minute that you insult a person in a debate you lose.
You should get your act together and read the "comment policy" above.
The sad thing is that if a disagreement or any other dispute occurs in the new Utopia, John Jacquard has displayed the reaction that one can expect in the collective paradise. Toe the mark and only think in the correct way and everything will be fine.
Independent thought, questioning his society as he is questioning other societies will not be tolerated. Sounds almost totalitarian.. He does show the way... Well, nothing has really changed. Social engineers and manipulators of the past all had the same attitude...
It depends on how far they are willing to go to push their paradise onto society at large.
independent thought? show me where that was. yeah taking care of the earth creating freedom for all people so evil isn't it, creating a world in which we don't go extinct and where we are not destroying everything , setting up systems in accordance with natural law terrible idea huh, do even know what jacque fresco is saying? or are you too bust creating your own assumptions? listen take in all the information then process, because your changing the meaning before it reaches your mind.why don't we start building houses on opinion instead of measurement? lets have outr space program not plan things on science.get rid of all science and tech if we can olny use it on worthless things like iphones.
Of course you can and you should question the very nature of THE VENUS PROJECT. This project came in to being when the logical questions arose after the life experiences suffered by its creator Jacques Fresco. Social Engineering was never his occupation. Nor has he made millions and billions of PROFITS entering this field. He only advocates a better future by following plain logic and reason. Not by corrupt self-interested failed politics or dreams of an UTOPIA. He has already answered these dumb allegations by telling his critics that THE VENUS PROJECT is just an idea for a better future. You are free to add in or remove original ideas by pure reasoning. Its about sustainable future better than today's self-interested profit motivated UTOPIA called: CAPITALISM
Thank you for a sane and reasoned reply. It is refreshing to read.
i'm talking about taking care of humanity and the earth so we can survive as is this film what did you think I was talking about?
@John Jacquard:
You say you are talking about taking care of humanity?
Maybe you have already figured out that "a lot" of people are sheeple, they basically cannot do anything without someone to idolize, someone to tell them what to do, for their own good of course, hehe. Religion is a prime example.
Are you maybe nominating yourself as dictator?? Like I said this doc is a pipe dream, unless it is something like a forced "George Orwell's 1984"
no, I believe in the opposite of dictatorship. you would know that if you read my posts , i have met sheeple in my life and helped get them out of it i think it's like that to support the kind of system we have. what are your thoughts on the educational system today?
I have nothing against the platitude promoted by the Venus project. Peace is good, equality is good. Eliminating poverty is good.
I am old enough to have gone to school before the Department of Education started to destroy the schools. If there was a conflict involved we used to be taught both sides of that particular subject. We were taught to use our brains and analyze information and come to our own conclusion. After the DOE became a driving force, things became more of an indoctrination than a learning experience. We were presented false history, situation ethics, and one sided politics. Very much a socialization process instead of a learning process. My own daughter came home filled with all sorts of misinformation. We got all sorts of learning materials and she ended up with two schools, the public school and another one at home. After some trouble at school with some of her answers to some tests, we had to instruct her to answer the school's test and teachers with what they teach and learn something closer to the truth at home but keep it at home.. Right now, she is a pretty smart person and she can quickly get to the truth in most things.
I am at the stage in my life where I can pursue some of my own interests. I have a metal shop in my garage that houses machines that I have built. I have built a new body for a classic automobile, built my own CNC 4 axis milling machine, built mechanisms for my daughter's school science class. Right now, I am working on a 3D printer. As Jacque Fresco has explained many times, in both videos and in print, no one will be allowed to own anything. Everything will go for societies good. So why should anyone pursue any personal interest if the collective will take any output of that interest. I doubt that under his plan that anyone could even have a personal shop to build anything in or personal machines that can't be controlled by what ever is in charge... All those artists that now are free to pursue their art, in a culture that is not allowed to own anything, not even a camera, would there art become part of the collective. Who is going to make sure that someone isn't being creative for their own sake. What about people who think they are great artists but in reality, they are not, will the collective demand their output. I have several friends that are into different things. One experiments with electronics and lasers. He builds and enjoys all sorts of items. Another modifies vehicles to run on alternate fuels and electricity. None of them like the idea of some vigilante committee coming in and removing their work. This was told to me by someone on the Venus project web site...people will not be allowed to own anything, it will create jealousies and this is one of the things Venus is trying to get away from.
Humans get riled for other reasons than what someone owns and they don't. For example, humans get upset over different views on a subject, as you should know.
How are you going to eliminate, for example, fights between husband and wife...eliminate marriage?
People get jealous for all sorts of personal reasons not even concerning societies ills.
Thanks, but I do not consider myself as a sheeple. If that were so, I would bend over and hang on every word you write, or is it that you consider me a sheeple because I don't get in lock step with you.
i respect that. also very interesting things you wrote, I understand your concerns about issues such as property. but property is the product of consumerism. it is not that people would not be allowed to own, it is that the entire earth would be your property, in your given situation you would be given the resource to advance your projects upon proposal.fights with husband and wife usually pertain to needs not being met, or inequality issues in a RBE people would not feel like they need to control other people we do that now because of the lack of control we experience with our own lives.
thank you for your explanations it is enlightening in regards to your situation. If we look at something such as jealousy we see by it's very nature a response to an environment lock someone in a room by themselves never will be jealous as example so knowing that we must create the healthiest environment, all of your concerns are addressed by TVP no ownership in the sense that the world is similar public library cept you would not have to return it but growing up in that type of culture we would have different values compared to this one, we struggle to really see how this current environment affects so much of our psychology beliefs and nature but in this system jealousy war fighting ownership is the foundation, which makes us believe it must be genetic, but no human has ever lived without environment while being studied the best we can do is to look at when people's dreams are supported and needs are met versus stuggleing to survive and pinning humans against each other. I respect you in a new light based on what you have written about your methods and life style ,It's understandable to be weary of TVP however all your concerns have been addressed, also you should know I myself don't care if we have TVP or whatever as long as a healthy environment is created where man can thrive and eliminate barter money and all other corruptions like property and the like think about property as a means of control. ownership means the whole earth is not yours
Well, money is a fiction. Any change like this suggested by Fresco would have to be a deep societal change the likes of which we've not seen in 400 years. This Venus Project does come off as a little too much pie in the sky, etc etc, though it is possible but difficult. Consciousness would need a serious boost to incubate change... like a some sort of direct network of communication connections between people...
@CapnCanard:
"Like some sort of direct network of communications connections between people??" you say.
The only place that I known of where that might be possible is the planet Pandora, where the pure spirits of the forest reside.
Too little, too late.
The corp. and elite won't let you.
For the new generation: success ! you will need it, in this sesspool.
we are conditioned to be negative right now anyone saying are far away blah blah this is a straight cop out. time to man up we either create a symbiotic system or go extinct are you happy with saying oh we are not ready we don't have to take that responsibility lets just die off instead ? i'm not i will do everything i can . genetics only respond to stimuli from environment people are conditioned to be ignorant violent and the such time to change this. our social system is obsolete monetary system obsolete if you educate people and get them to develop a generalist self education and not rely on the status quo which is directed by the top of the pyrimid
fresco & co supply an alternative to our current state which is obviously needed .stating that we are not capable,psychotic rapists & sick seems to have a negative mental deficiancy against frescos positive mental deficiancy!it's just the other side of the spectrum !philanthrope vs.misanthrope, as i said...funny ! no offence.
"I pledge allegiance to the Earth,
and to all creatures who dwell upon.
And to the Biosphere on which we live,
Our planet, under responsible care,
with Freedom, Abundance and Happiness for All."
I acknowledge there are grave challenges ahead, midnight is rapidly approaching but even in these darkened times I'll still hold hope that the single family of Humankind can and will overcome these obstacles for the good of all.
One just needs to listen for a while what people have to say about this idea to understand that humans are as far away from this type of society mentally as the Earth is from the next galaxy, well maybe further even.
Of course it is impossible to create such a society - just look at us, as a collective. A pinnacle of millions of years of evolution, including brain evolution, at the abyss of it's own destruction. A few rotten apples such as Fresco, whose brain for some unexplained reason works in a highly defective manner (I actually think we should put him in an institution for mentally deficient) will not delude us into believing that it is even remotely possible that we can live without money and that we could actually ever achieve anything better than we have today.
Humans are so bad and that's a fact. We are genetically inclined to greed and stocking resources which are scarce, using new technologies mainly for killing other humans or destroying our environment. A fellow human is either a potential murderer or a rapist, or a sicko of some sort anyway, that is simply the way we are, the predisposition of our genetics and the result of our evolution, it has nothing to do with the, alleged, deficiencies of the society we have allowed to be created. We should focus on maintaining our current way of life because there is no feasible alternative to it. And we should always, forever, maintain that safe harbor where we feel at home. Because only this way we are protected from potential abuse of our life and rights. Anything else is laughable and not possible.
funny!with your comment you have put yourself in one line with that mentally deficient person !
You will have to provide a better argument :)
@WTC7:
I agree with you when you say "that humans are as far away from this type of society mentally as the earth is from the next galaxy" my take it is as far away as the deep field of space 14.7 billion light years away.
We have just come swinging down from the trees a very short while ago, does anybody think with our limited human animal brain that we suddenly can do an about face and become so benevolent to one another. A long, long way to go from our class 0 civilization to class one and onward to class 3, by then we should be smart enough to alter our predisposition, or to have our genes altered so as not to kill one another. 10,000 years or so anyone??
@ Achems Razor,
Although my post was largely sarcastic in response to a few posts below that I read, I actually do agree that at this point of our brain evolution, most of us are still far away from a society described by Fresco. Which makes his vision possible on Earth in some millennia or so :). If we ever get that far...
I get the impression that he is not targetting people of this earth. If he was, he would have started a large commune where this philsophy of living would at least be in test mode. I think his goal is to try to sale his models to Nasa or similar agencies who are developping the possiblility of living on other planets.
az
a commune is the opposite of what he is talking about complete 180.
I don't know, Az. Fresco looks to me as if he truly believed in what he is talking about. Know nothing about him apart from what he himself said in the doc (which is very little), so can't talk about his motives. I agree with him that many of the traits humans are displaying today are not part of the human nature but the product of a darwinian type of the societal environment. But there remain too many unanswered issues in his presentation of the resource based economy and society based on it. The bottom line for me, however perfect it may look, is that the society he suggests is something that is simply impossible in a forseeable future. But, similar to what Earthwinger said, we should perhaps focus on doing small things in our lives today to ensure that our children live in a world truly free of any kind of slavery tomorrow. Because, to me, a world of modern type slavery is more what we are heading towards.
Modern slavery already exists, everyday when go to private dictatorships(jobs), they are being slaved for their own resources, just to live, what has happened on this world is people have tooken our resources and then sell them back to us in the form of labor and monetary gain, its like megoing in your house taking everything you have and then trying to sell it right back to you, we gave been bamboozled
if that's true smash every laptop stop the space program and stop particle physicists from their research , because are of these things follow a systems approach and function exactly in the way TVP is explaining to apply to our social system as well
i have never heard such ignorant statement in my life , please provide your sources for such statements
I agree, sarcasm in my post is elusive, hence I welcome your response.
oh sorry bout that
I should have read this before I rabbited on with my own comment :)
I don't see anything wrong with your comment :)! On the contrary, I find your reasoning absolutely logical. Don't mind me sometimes, I occasionally get into a strange mood ;) xx
I like you anyway ;)
Likewise :)!
My brother fell for the communist/socialist line. He joined a commune.
Things sort of worked for a while then jealousies cropped up. People that had more skills began to 'feel' the the less skillful or less industrious were dragging the commune down. Squabbling and disagreements over the direction the small society should go began occurring.
The commune attracted many of those that have the attitude that the 'world owes them a living'. People would begin to slough off their work onto others. Eventually, a small few were doing the work for the many.
Other people became dictatorial, attempting to run things as they saw fit. Many times this turned into outright aggression against the collective body and against others that felt the need to run things their way.
Free sex was in play, but as in many other attempts at this life style, there are always those that can engage someone else's partner but no one can touch his/her's. Human foibles and jealousies would rise. The dictatorial types would step in to settle a matter and this usually created more animosity.
All the human problems of the societies that these people were running from were still present and persist. As in the same matter that the socialists/communists of history had dropped to, dictatorship became the only answer. Some always end up at the top, all others slide toward the bottom. In these societies, the lowest common denominator usually prevail for the masses.
It was "Animal Farm" in real life.
how does your story fit in to this topic?
It is an analogous of the Venus project in that when you create a society where everything is free, just check out what one needs from some library type facility, you will end up with what my brother experienced. Many people will sit on their behinds.
I suspect there would be quite a few that won't agree to a master computer running civilization any more than they except any authority telling them anything.
You are just replacing money with resources. Give resources away and soon, the resources won't mean anything, Just as if you gave money away today, there would be no respect for what anyone receives and they will still want more.... Loan you car out to a stranger and see what condition it is in when it is returned to you, if returned at all.
In another forum, I asked one of the Venus Project advocates if someone, out of kindness, would come over unplug my toilet and sewer if it was plugged up. He stated that no one would have to, there would be automatic machines to take care of that. I asked if those machines exist. He replied that they are not invented yet. So I have to wait until the sewer unplug machine is invented before I can use the toilet?? He then stated that we may have to use money during the transition to a full resource economy and many people will still have to get paid for their work, especially dirty or dangerous work. I then ask what is he going to do with the money, resources are free and any money one saves will end up being worthless. He came back with, it may be possible to pay them with extra resources. Wouldn't that be unfair to others, you might as well keep a monetary system... it ends up the same.
Human nature is a myth???? Tell that to the countries that we have given tons of food and supplies to only to have the dictator or some guerrilla group go in robbing and killing the needy for the supplies. If their environment has so much effect, why don't these outlaws just walk in and say thank you and share with the others? Live in my neighborhood, the same person that you help will come back and destroy property or rob you, or even kill...many times just for sport.
Every single cell responds to it's environment ??? Tell that to the doctors and shamans that have been fighting diseases since time began. There are many cells that take the environment over, many times killing the host.
The Venus Project isn't portrayed as a socialist/communist scheme. It's adherents will vehemently deny that it is, yet, that is just what it is dressed in a different cloak. A people's paradise, everyone equal, a want for nothing system, when boiled down to it's essence, that just replaces money with resources.
we don't need intangible objects dictation extinction of humanity.
it's opposite of your brother's experience why don't you see that?
what he is saying isn't what your thinking there seems to be a disconnect
he is saying use tech to make all people free make food free etc did you watch it?
Your logic is flawed. You think like everyone else in this capitalist society that people who are doing dirty work today (janitors, plumbers, mechanics etc) are just doing it because they have failed in every other occupation. So by fixing a rich guys toilet he may earn what he ACTUALLY deserve. That is how old system of class has continued even after socialism and communism. The rich always profit from the poor. It was kings, sultans, emperors in the past. Today that class in replaced by business tycoons, oligarchs, bankers repeating the same mistakes as the old times filthy rich did.
And then we have your criminal neighborhood. Your neighbor will still shoot you because he still live in the same corrupt monetary environment. Why don't small children who haven't yet witnessed violence start beating each other to death? Experiments show that children are more likely to interact and play with each rather than making enemies. If the former was true, none of us would ever have any childhood friend, ever!
Venus Project is not about giving resources for free like charity, where humans don't need to work for a living. In order to distribute resources fairly, one first need to get them, turn them into sustainable products and then make them available for everyone. Its not about producing the cheapest and selling the most. Because no profit motive is involved, products are only produced as needed and as resources are available. You can obviously not have an eternal cheap oil based economy and then make fun of those who say otherwise :D
Other than assuming what I think about hard working people, thank you for making my argument for me. Resources, as you stated, have to be worked for, ergo, resources just replaces money... Other than the pipe dream non-existent inventions and systems, nothing has changed if one has to earn their resources...
Yes. The reason Fresco wants to go directly to resources rather by money first, is our gigantic financial sector which produces nothing but conspiracy. All money related crimes can be solved by making money out of resource equation. Its the resources we need and not the money, even if it seems that we are working for the money on the outside. The financial sector knows this secret and fools the masses into unreasonable debt burden in the long run accompanied by various economic bubbles, scandals, frauds, scams etc etc all under the banner of financial terrorism.
When Al-Ciada blows up the twin towers, those acts are visible and direct, getting the title of terrorism from the media and people. When Wall Street banks blow up the whole economy, and get taxpayer bailout in return, those acts of mass injustice are invisible, so they avoid being called terrorists by same media and people. Its about time the terrorists are shown their true faces.
I think you better look at the American government and then look at the bankers.. Do you remember "owning a home is a right" that the government push on everybody?? Forcing the banks to make bad loans to people that can't pay the mortgages was not the best idea. The government told the banks that they could be fined or sued if they didn't write the useless loans. The banks, forced to take these loans then bundled them up in derivatives and sold the all over the world to unsuspecting institutions. The bankers were at fault but they were caught between a rock and a hard space.
As far as the bailouts, they were more for the unions and their retirement funds plus making the banker and wall street boys even richer yet. Fannie May and Freddy Mac didn't mind the largess that they received. Their chairmen and others received some hefty bonuses also.. Not much helped the man on the street...
When men comment off-topic about weapons (see below) it's a sure sign of sexual and social inadequacy. Likewise racist nonsense about so-called African history merely displays the poster's fear of cultural inferiority.
So chaps don't be scared of the Venus Project - you are the people with most to gain from the new paradigm - you can stop pretending to be tough guys...
Fabulous documentary! This is absolutely the way forward - share it wide and far people to help the cause! This video went instantly viral on youtube-let's keep that going! :)
this is so 1979
Fantastic vision for the future laid out by Fresco and co. The major criticsm is surely that the powerful will do anything to keep their differentials over the rest of us - that is why the world's in crisis. The current economic system creates and reproduces inequality and will continue while most are too apathetic or ignorant to change themselves.
they are putting the message out now so when everything collapses and people lose their house cars jobs they will know of another way.
All of these things have happened, are happening now. Without money none of the 'new way' can happen.
Every human being should see this documentary to know how the things could be changed in this world for turn it a really nice paradise for everybody in the most cientific and researched way :)
Do you want 'Paradise'? We can achieve it. But it will take a sacrifice. As long as we perceive ourselves as better than others, we cannot get towards 'Paradise'. As long as we go around the world, telling other cultures that they are less, or dont believe the right God, or that their government is wrong because we are right, we will never move towards the light. We will never succeed as a people. We will never get close to 'Paradise'.
one question that never gets answered is what i see as one of the most important. what do you do with those who don't wish to join? we all know that no matter what the question is there will always be people on both sides. history also shows that resistance to change usually comes from the ones with the most to lose. so logic dictates that the countries with the most of the remaining resources will most likely not want to share them freely. so if (only an if) Canada,Brazil and Russia resisted and did not want to join? do you force them? they control massive percentages of water,land,agriculture,oil and gas that this movement will desperately need for even a small chance to succeed. this example may be unrealistic and many other countries be added or removed and the question will remain the same.
also who gets the nicer homes (everyone cannot live on the beach) and some will be needed to live in less than ideal areas if only to oversee the robot work force. they never show the jails (criminally insane will always exist) and rule of law in some form is needed. who gets the new technologies that this system creates first? someone has to and that will create a hierarchy. what about the famous every culture has them but elevating a person or persons above the group is a failure of this ideal. while i applaud the effort there are way too many critical questions that are not addressed and most likely cannot be. lastly greed is cultural AND genetic. we are predisposed to protect our own first and favor their well being above others. we are genetically programmed to consume or store more then we need to plan for feast and famine that our ancestors and we still today find ourselves exposed to. that is the design behind fast food high fat and calorie that we don't need but our body releases chemicals to make us feel good when we eat it.there are many more not only important but necessary questions that need to be addressed before this idea can be even looked at as a possible answer. if we tear down our society and impose this system and it fails we will be left with nothing so getting it right ahead of time is imperative.
All of your questions are addressed at the Zeitgeist Movement website, although it will take some time over there to find each individual answer. A complete re-design of our present economic and social systems is not something that can be nut-shelled easily; it takes time to understand the concepts.
The present society will not be 'torn down', it would probably slowly morph one idea, one new way of doing things, one village at a time; a test city built from scratch with donated land and funds to get going may be the way; I envision a city with volunteers at first, perhaps people who are retired and/or independently wealthy who may be the first to sign on; people who don't 'need to work' right now to keep going. They would have the time, education, knowledge and resources. If the idea seemed to work, others would surely want to join. If someone was against the idea, there would certainly be no force employed to make them. That's silly on its face. Why would the inhabitants of a city want people there who didn't believe in the ideals? It has to be voluntary and it would be voluntary.
There should be no need to 'steal' resources from different locations. Ideally, most resource use would be local although knowing what's available globally and not using it to extinction or pollution levels is a necessary caveat. At this point in time already, we will need to start mining the landfills for recycling of materials... why would someone in say, Nicaragua, need resources from Canada? They never did until quite recently... part of the idea of saving fuel resources is being quite local for almost all of one's needs.
Short answers: 'Nicer homes'; homes would be 'first come, first served' and a waiting list for perceived 'nicer' locations. Remember, with this system, you can travel the world your entire life, for free. I'm sure there's more than one place in the world you would happily live for however long...
Prisons: Yes, there would be a tiny subgroup of dangerous criminals (many of them are presently in charge of things, BTW); but it would be a tiny fraction of the people now in jail. Perhaps people with an interest in psychology would be interested in studying them to see why they are the way they are, finding a cure and thus end the problem permanently? Perhaps if society wasn't so sick, there would be far fewer of them?
Instead of asking questions ad infinitum, go over to TZM website and read. You'll get your answers.
i don't agree this film (and other venus project films) state and i quote " planning must be based on the carrying capacity of earths resources" "our entire infrastructure must be redesigned" "we must consider our entire global community as one unit" and on and on i have been to the TZM website and this idea is not denied. i have gone and read and there are no answers to many questions. i am all for change and equality but basing a system on unrealistic solutions and denying human nature is a prescription for failure
human nature is myth
even a single cell genetically responds to the environment. humans respond to the environment. which answers are you looking for that are not answered i may be able to assist
the first answer i would like from you is your own statement "human nature is myth "
there is no such thing as human nature what you mean is human behavior its called psychology and it's created by the environment that is why jacque is talking about creating a healthy environment for the first time on earth. a symbiotic relationship instead of going extinct
John Jacquard
yes human nature is real.please if you are going to talk down to me try to be right at least. human nature is "Human nature refers to the distinguishing characteristics, including ways of thinking, feeling and acting, that humans tend to have naturally." psychology is the study of that behavior among other things. but whatever you wish to call it humans will look out for themselves and their families first,they will be jealous , greed always a factor, corruption always creeps in and so on . this idea seems to think that these behaviors will just disappear. sadly that has not been demonstrated to me. the technology needed does not yet exist (if it ever will) for this system to function and basing a movement on speculation is dangerous.
that is the most ignorant statement on this site! show me evidence of this woowoo! lol i almost sh*t my pants! okay so your saying if you take a human and either a. put them in the worst prison for 20 years or b. provide them with all their needs and allow them to research any topic they love , the person would be the same because they were born jealous or ignorant or greed? wow
@John Jacquard
show you evidence of human nature? really? first off your example has nothing to do with what i said. you are making the nature versus nurture argument and i never said nurture didn't have an effect on behavior.twisting of ones words,insults and putting words in another persons mouth are usually the actions of someone who is either losing a debate or at the very least too dishonest to bother debating. i am done please don't respond
there is no nature versus nurture if your educated on the material of biology psychology anthropology systematics neurology Environmental science unless your referring to color of eyes etc.
you haven't studied these topics obviously , human behave in a way based on how their needs are met.
Human nature and mentality, being evolved enough to be congruent with this type of a society is what would have to happen. We are still the same people cave men as far as evolution. The soviet union was an example that failed, because you cant force people to evolve and think at a higher level until they themselves evolve.
you don't do anything with anyone it is not that type of system. everyone is going to want in ,every one. if someone walked up to you and you had nothing and they offered to give you food shelter water etc would yo kick their ass?
@John Jacquard
that example is meaningless. if someone was able to give me food water and shelter that means your system is already in place doesn't it? if it is then you have already taken away everything to put in the common pot so it may be their fault i no longer have these things? if so yes i would kick their ass. and no everyone might not want in. what about those areas that have a higher percentage of the remaining resources than they would get by shearing. now i am all for sharing and if i thought this idea had a reasonable chance of success i would be all for it. but i don't and until i see actual relevant numbers and facts i have to go with the results history has for commune living . Marxism is a great idea until people get involved
? where are you coming up with commune living and marxism from?
John Jacquard
these are the closest examples to this ideas we have to draw from. again please explain " "human nature is myth "
So your new way will be based on the need of the poor, homeless and hungry being desperate enough to opt in? What if they choose not to, will they be left to starve? Charity, compassion etc should be unconditional.
43:40 wow. sign me up.
It is possible but GREED is the obstacle. The centralized living arrangements seems to claustrophobic and there are many others aspects that are objectionable. Though, I think permaculture (i.e. closed loop food production) techniques would have to be the norm... and energy needs to be completely decentralized . In other words everyone produces their own energy. It is possible, but difficult.
greed is a product of environment not genetic
This whole Venus project is based on the hypothetical question, "What if pigs could fly?". Well, they can't, so you might as well get used to it.
If pigs really needed to, they would develop a way to fly, in time.
If not, they'd die out.
when this system collapses completely and everyone you know has nothing your story will change trust me
I agree with large parts of Fresco's many talks, he has interesting suggestions for child education, architecture and others subjects but his Venus project is a huge task for planet earth. I would say it appears to be beyond possible at least in his life time. The idea comes from a guy who lives in Florida Sunshine state, someone who appears to have a huge flow of cash, someone who doesn't have to feed the hungry hand in hand. It is said that he is self taught which is quite the accomplishment, it shows creativity and imagination and a strong desire to change the world for a better place for generations to come.
I think the world needs to pay attention to his ideas and we are, perhaps the whole vision is not possible but parts of it sure are.
az
i would suspect above everyone else that you would want a symbiotic system in place
As i wrote a minute ago, the format has to be implemented in trial villages. He obviously has the cash flow, what is he waiting for?
You can't change a society overnight. People won't change all over the world simultaneously. Making models and spending huge amount of money on docs give me the impression that he is targetting something other than the world we live in.
az
I hear you Az. Get on his a$$.
sure it has to be implemented, i don't think he has any cash it all went into his work. no you can't do it over night i never said you could.he is not speaking poetry, if people listen to what he is saying it is pretty clear cut. he is making the models and docs to help, we each have to do what we can as well if we really want a free society like he's talking about, we never had freedom before so it would be for the first time, but the main point is we need a healthy environment. we need to evolve our social systems and each person will change with accordance to what truth they are educated with.
While I agree with much of what Jaque has to say, and I love his architecture, I just can not imagine all the different cultures existing on our planet being willing to let go of thier own cultural identity and merge into one. Culture is expressed through architecture, clothing, language, diet, etc. everything we are is connected to it. Asking people to shed this way of life and embrace commonality will be the biggest obstacle this idea faces. Imagine trying to convince a country as culturally defined as say, Iran or Isreal to assimulate into this global culture, to let go of thier religion and cultural identity that has controlled everything about them for hundreds of years and embrace commonality with the rest of the world. I just don't see how to get there, maybe that is my failure but I just can't see it.
Even if we get past this obstacle then we have to deal with the power hungry nations, we all know who they are. The U.S., my country, being at the top of the list. These global powers will never let go their advantage willingly. If for no other reason than they do not trust other nations. They would be scared that as soon as they lost their advantage someone would repay them for past crimes. After all that is how they would react if they saw a weakness to exploit.
In general I love the idea, agree with Jaques critque of present society, but just don't think it will ever happen. I think yes, we could solve the technical issues eventually but, overcoming all our social, political, religious, and economic differences in order to get this thing off the ground is another story.
He emphasizes the importance of individuality. I see no need to abandon your religion, in fact, I think spirituality, if anything, shoud be explored further in conjunction with science. But it is true that people would be required to shed most of their beliefs. That goes without saying. Without that, we wouldn't be able to change anything. I'm talking beliefs about everything and how they thought it works. He says it too, we need to educate people as much as possible. That is, continually, until they die. Let them make their own conclusions and form their own ideas. Teach them to embrace change and challenge their beliefs again and again. Settling for something is like swimming against the current just to stay in one particular spot.
It's not commonality they'd be embracing! It's diversity!
The only common thing would be the fact that our needs are more than taken cared of. Above that, anyone could believe, work on, or think of whatever they'd like!
What enforces commonality is this system.
School, as it is today, is usually a place where you get a certain belief package inserted, you are then asked to regurgitate it and the possibility of it being outdated is not even considered. So everyone learns the same stuff (based on the topic they chose, ofcourse) in the same way. The only thing good about schools are the teachers that realize how important and beneficial constant education is and they bring that enthusiasm to class and infect the majority of the students with it.
Employment. You do the same damn thing as a myriad of others do and it doesn't interest you at all. Except for a small percentage of people that actually like what they do. Imagine everyone having the freedom to do what they love to do. Many don't even know they have interests that they could sink the whole of their day into and not notice the time pass.
Anyway, I'm trying to say that the way it is now, we are forced to pick circles that we'd like to be in, and we're thrown into or denied from being in other circles. We get all this vanity **** that keeps us occupied, thinking it's a symbol of how richly laden our lives are, mistaking it sometimes for culture.
I don't see why people couldn't keep speaking their language, wear diferrent clothes (for functionality, not vanity), eat diferrent kinds of foods (actually people would have to, due to their unique digestive systems and other factors), etc.
In the world I'd like to live in, a person that would have an interest in something, would go and read and explore and experiment with their ideas - they'd learn in a way that soothed them (every person is diferrent, hence, every person learns best in a diferrent way).
Their occupation would be their interest.
And learning would not be a burden in a society that takes care of your basic needs, it wouldn't be linked to working your life away, as it is now.
The idea here is to work together to build a good, working plan. He isn't claiming, I believe, that his plan has no holes and that it can't be improved further. And I am more than sure, that when and if, these plans were to be set in motion, more than a few better ideas would pop up in the process. We'd just need to compare and adjust.
Another thing. Countries and ownership of land would have to be dispersed of course. The way I see it, where you lived wouldn't matter at all. You could move from place to place easily, or live in one community the whole of your life, if that suited you.
Sorry, I'm all over the place, I tried to make it cohesive.
And don't get me wrong I'm not being agressive :)
You act as if peoples religions and culture do not guide everything from how they build their homes to how they socialize with others. You say they could keep their individual cultural beliefs but that isn't the case at all. Sure they could keep them, as long as they do not live by them- but they do and that is the whole point. The Venus project wants decisions to be based on pure logic and functionality not religion or cultural traditions. Each culture has its own way of farming, worshiping, building, dressing, speaking, etc. its own beliefs about gender roles, sexuality, social customs, etc. Yet you seem to think they will all just do away with this and start letting logic and functionality be the only guide to decision making. Is it possible, yes- many things are possible. Is it probable or even concievable at present, not realistically.You guys try to make it sound so easy, its not. Even if you somehow get all cultures to agree to participate- 1. present technology isn't capbale of all you require 2. The transistion would have to be individually taylored for each economy and would be brutal 3. It would take decades to work out all the bugs and people would suffer in the mean time, its inevitable when taking on something this huge. I am not saying it can not be done, but you guys do your cause a disservice when you try to sell it as an easy change.
read a book on the space program and the procedure for a space flight, that systems approach and intelligent managment is the same thing when you build a laptop at a factory or a telescope yet our current social and monetary system's do not operate in this way hence the current extinction of humanity that is currently happening
I am a chemist John, I know all bout systematic approach and, I agree- our current system doesn't approach problem solving efficiently. However, you , much like every one else that has responded to my statement, have not even attempted to address my concerns. Every time I try to pin any of you guys (Venus project supporters) down on a issue you just start talking about how poorly the present system works, you don't answer the question. Again, and am getting tired of saying this over and over, I agree that the present system doesn't work, that resources are being wasted, that we can not continue the way we are going. That said, unless you guys can start answering some of the legitimate concerns that intelligent people have about the Venus project- such as how we convince people to stop basing their decisions and expectations on religion, culture, tradition, etc. and start letting logic and functionality be the deciding factor- then you are just dreaming and have no real plan.
I mean this has been the goal of science for countless years, I know because I fought the battle my self until i finally just gave up. Yet you guys seem to think it will just happen all on its own . Just produce enough of a surplus and everyone will start being logical. Sorry but that isn't going to happen. Science has shown people over and over again that the scientific method can solve problem after problem and provide us answers we never thought possible, and still people refuse to let go of religion, culture, tradition, etc. What makes you guys think they are all the sudden going to change and be willing to let go of what they have died for, lived for, begged for all these years? The best answer I can get from any of you is that people are conditioned by their environment and that if we change the environment the people will also change. I agree with this, but only to a point. They are not going to give up their religious beliefs for instances, no matter how much of a surplus you guys create. And thats only one small issue, we haven't started talking about the fact you guys are basing your society on technology that doesn't even exist yet.
lets figure out your concerns then
I have been trying to push the scientific method as the best way to live for decades, just as many others have on this site, to no avail. No offense but, thinking we are going to solve such an issue on an online forum is extremely niave in my opinion. Just look at what people have been willing to sacrifice in order to preserve their religion and cultural traditions, think of all the over whelming evidence they ignore daily, realize the extraordinary lengths they go to justify in their own minds their beliefs- it seems very reasonable to me to conclude that to solve this issue will take hundreds of years, and quite possibly will never happen. And, this is only half the battle. Once we get people to this level then we have to deal with greed, distrust, old grudges, etc. Then we have to create the technology and get it all in place and running, try to devise a transistion plan for each culture, etc., etc. This would be without doubt the largest, most complex, and most difficult challenge this globe has ever or will ever face. Yes the pay off would be tremendous but, one has to wonder if it is even achievable or is it just a beautiful dream. I am not a pessimist but, I do require reasonable scientific proof something is achievable before I support my country jumping in head first. Why, becaus a failed attempt at something like this could leave society in ruin.
your right we either go extinct or solve our problems
it is the sci methods that needs to be applied to all systems just as if we were to send people to mars this is TVP it is on point with your concerns religion is false system so is captialism communism all isms have the top 1% that is the difference with TVP or any RBE eliminate the intangible in areas of basic needs as far as freedom this would be the first free society
To me its a lot more basic than culture or country being the obstacle. It comes down to the basic tendency for the individual to have his or her own identity. This need always translates into "choosing sides". We all want our opinion heard which is why I am writing this comment and everyone that comments here does so. We have a basic need to express our opinion or we sacrifice our individuality. This to me is a paradox of all humans. Even when we truly think we are doing things for the "right" reason we are subjugating our autonomy to a group, or cause, or belief system that always seems to be "corrupted" or coerced by the "individuals that are a part of it. In the same way you(Waldo) refer to "my country" we always want to make judgements about countries or religions or social org.. Are we "power hungry" because we have been dominant or are we dominant because we have been power hungry?? Either way, calling any nation a "evil empire" as Reagan did does nothing to advance the understanding that evil whether "supernatural" or a basic product of human nature is still evil no matter how much we try to avoid the concept. I wish someone could tell me how the choice comes down to "Paradise or Oblivion" For the fundamental religions "paradise" is the goal. For the "faithless" Oblivion is the only option and its just a matter of time. I tend towards something less well defined.The procrastination of oblivion does not seem a very interesting pursuit to me.
Our current socio-economic system is build on cheap oil. Even IRAN and ISRAEL are dependent on this scarce finite resource. There is no way we can just continue to grow and grow for ever in one direction. The life survived on this planet because it got recycled by the very dictatorship of almighty nature. Its just so easy to explain this by looking at our past. Great civilizations made by Babylons, Greeks, Romans, Persians, Egyptians, Arabs all turned into dust because none of them were actually stable enough in sync with nature. Those in power today are repeating same old proven mistakes and failures.
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
Albert Einstein
Alright then, I fail to see how your post relates even remotely to mine but, I agree with you- somewhat. I never said nor suggested that infinite growth was possible- it isn’t, I never said anything about being in or out of sync with nature, and I never said we should continue to do the same thing we have in the past. What I did say, and still stand by, is that changing to this system, even if it’s a good system, doesn't seem feasible to me considering the present state of affairs. That’s a real issue you guys must address. You can sing the praises of a resource based economy to the top of your lungs, and we may all agree. However, if no one knows how to realistically get there from where we are, it does us no good does it? Just throwing around counter culture statements and mentality will not suffice, sorry. They fail to answer any real questions and only restate what we have already agreed upon, that the present system doesn’t work.
the most difficult thing to do is to make all powermongers and all kinds of religious fanatics and controlfreaks to let go theyr power sets worldwide... no way they will do that easily
Nobody will want the high rise living, and no drama group is going to stop them wanting the island houses. He has to stack people up because there won't be enough space for everyone. This is nonsense. Like the building techniques though, bits appear from nowhere and are elegantly slotted together. Logans Run.
Hi dew, I'm sure Jaque will email a table to your 3D printer. Oh wait.....
I'm building one now, easier than building a table. All I need is some wire and a chunk of 3D and i'll be ready :)
dewflirt, I agree but there are other techniques to grow food and to cast off inefficient practices, tactics, and outdated techniques. I believe that the biggest thing thing standing in the way is social conformity, belief, greed, and etc etc etc. In that regard it is all a conscious choice of the whole group.
I can get with the whole social change thing, there are a lot of things wrong with society and our attitudes to each other, our greed and it's consequences for others being one. If people were less greedy and more giving as individuals some of this would sort itself out. I agree that agriculture, farming and food distribution should be managed with nature and people in mind, not profits. Though who will work that hard and do it for the good of their community and not themselves. What I don't get is why he feels the need to rebuild everything, why not work with what we have? In his ideal world there will still be a class system, people will still have better or worse jobs and homes than others. How will they be allocated? Will it be based on the tailored education they receive? That might allow for the individuality he seeks whilst they are young but will it really allow for growth and development throughout life? Will social standing be pre-determined by intelligence shown in school? People will still strive for better jobs, the lakeside houses, and will compare themselves to those who have better. Absolute equality is not possible, human nature won't allow it. Would be lovely though, if people would just shop less and waste less and want less. And a bit more empathy and compassion would be nice too.
All good questions and my thoughts as well. The rebuilding of everything and the centralization is, in my opinion, likely to be a major problem. On the one hand it could make everything more accessible but it would also make things more vulnerable to failures, accidents, sabotage, etc. But it is a pipe dream, like going to the moon, or lighter than air flight! i.e. possible, but only serious consideration will bring change. All of this is SOCIAL SCIENCE (the old oxymoron) where these problems are only problems until they are solved... and social change takes a great deal of time, but with the internetz things may change far more quickly. Personally I will not give up as easily as those who are frightened. Empathy, compassion etc, are vital to change and without that there is no real change for the good. Until then I guess it is just the same smell, different day.
Reading back through he comments I see that people probably are worried about such huge change, but I guess we think something like this would mean sacrificing the comforts we have now for the slim chance that it might work. Better the devil you know. There are communities around the world that have so little that they might welcome any change with open arms. If we truly cared about humanity as a whole we could concentrate on helping them first. Pin a rose to your lapel CapnCanard ;)
All the wonderful things these future people will create to make life even more wonderful will still need to be built. Resources will still be needed and somebody will still have to perform all the messy, miserable tasks to get them. Even if everything is automated as much as possible someone will have to man the computers . Not everyone will be able to sit back in their little white pod labs and tinker for the good of mankind. Wonder if he'd sell me his table.
even now there are ppl who work for no pay to do good things, imagine that, they must be nuts eh?
I'd be one of those people who's gone nuts along with any other artist or anyone who has college debt.
naa its nnot nuts, jus piviledged cause most of us gotta pay bills and eat first. when dats taken are of, most poeple do give away charitably and help others. venus project/socialism is still bad idea
It's true, I'm one of those nuts. 10 hours a week in a charity shop :)
(Negative comment here) == Decay
(Positive comment here) == Creativity
Fantastic, well done Jacque, i hope i live to see this dream become a reality.
This all sounds very nice. Not in my life time i feel.
Fat chance for any of this. I can't believe this guy seriously thinks he can end war. This will go the way the 60s movement to change the world. Look at how the peace and love hippies ended up actually changing the world. It's a big trash can now with about a billion depressed workaholics.