Overdose: The Next Financial Crisis
When the world's financial bubble blew, the solution was to lower interest rates and pump trillions of dollars into the sick banking system. The solution is the problem, that's why we had a problem in the first place.
For Economics Nobel laureate Vernon Smith, the Catch 22 is self-evident. But interest rates have been at rock bottom for years, and governments are running out of fuel to feed the economy. The governments can save the banks, but who can save the governments? Forecasts predict all countries' debt will reach 100% of GDP by next year. Greece and Iceland have already crumbled, who will be next?
The storm that would rock the world, began brewing in the US when congress pushed the idea of home ownership for all, propping up those who couldn't make the down payments. The Market even coined a term, NINA loans: "No Income, No Assets, No Problem!" Enter FannieMae and FreddieMac, privately owned, government sponsored. Want that vacation? Wanna buy some new clothes? Use your house as a piggie bank! Why earn money to pay for your home when you can make money just living in it? With the government covering all losses, you'd have been a fool not to borrow.
The years of growth had been a continuous party. But when the punchbowl ran dry, instead of letting investors go home to nurse their hangovers as usual, the Federal Reserve just filled it up again with phoney money. For analyst Peter Schiff, the consequence of the spending binge was crystal clear: we're in so much trouble now because we got drunk on all that Fed alcohol. Yet along with other worried experts, he was mocked and derided during the boom.
Have you taken out a mortgage, invested capital or bought shares? If you have, likelihood is you lost out in the latest bust. Governments promised decisive action, the biggest financial stimulus packages in history, gargantuan bailouts: but what crazed logic is this, propping up debt with...more debt? This documentary brings an entirely fresh voice to the hottest topic of today.
Think positive. The system suffered with the collapse of Lehman Brothers due to toxic assets overload. But funds shifted to derivatives trading.
There was no capital flight. The system gained trust, but money supply got stuck in futures contracts. Thus, it was imperative for the host market to print money and replenish the funds locked in contracts.
It is like having all chips of the casino in one table. Unless more chips are made available, the other activities offered in that casino would stop.
But this awkward remedial measure is poorly thought by other countries as a signal to create money supply, and this weakened their domestic conditions instead. This is the real problem, but that is another story.
Pretty decent documentary but it still fails to point out or recognize the root of the problem. The financial crisis is an intrinsic and inherent defect of the monetary system itself. The system cannot fix itself, as it in itself is the problem. The most imortant detail to understand in this, is that the system is a ploy - currency is a FICTION, NOT REAL, FABRICATED. When money is printed to create bailouts and stimulus packages, it is not coming from any existing value. It's not like the institutions printing the money actually have this money as something they own. It is simply printed arbitrarily as needed. Meaning, the money we use to run the economy is really no different than the money used to play the Monopoly board game. And if you haven't realized it yet, that basically means we are all paying debts to people who loant us money that didn't have the money. Meaning we're all being scammed and haven't the slightest clue it's a scam. You and I are paying debts that aren't given to us by someone who had the money previously. They didn't give us THEIR money, they printed new money into existence. So if it wasn't their money before, what makes it their money now? It seems we owe our debts to the money Gods because as far as I know Gods are the only things that can create. And since money has been created, out of thin air so to speak, no person on this planet can be the true owner of that money - it didn't belong to anyone; it didn't exist.
So as for solutions... Well, it's pretty simple, although, getting everyone informed in order to be onboard is the difficult part. Since money is a fiction and the creation of money happens arbitrarily as needed, it is just as simple to place arbitrary parameters or policies to ensure stability. For instance, there was an ancient practice in Judaism and Christianity known as a Jubilee year in which all debt was erased every 50 years. That could solve a lot of problems but it's no real solution, because it assumes that this pardon will be needed in 50 years time. A real solution will create stability without the need for intervention. I recommend we as a democracy enforce the government take control of money printing and we start printing our own interest free money, effectively making the current note in use, useless. This means all debts will be erased automatically since the old note (which we use right now), wont be valued anymore as money. And that holds no weight against anybody, because as I've stated previously, the money we owe didnt belong to anyone before it was printed and given to us as a loan. That's the short version in a nutshell. More tasking and community changes should probably take place as well but that's a long discussion, so I'll save it for now.
does that mean my savings would be wiped out? any investments and money owed to me would be wiped out? nobody would have and money to spend until this new money circulated? and retirement or investment savings based on currency would be gone? companies would have to make payroll without any money in the bank? what about any private citizen,country or company that invested in the currency would they be wiped out? why would anyone invest in a country or economy that just stops paying its bills? these (and many more) questions need to be answered before your plan is even remotely possible
I'm glad you brought it up. That would be part of what I referred to as 'more tasking'. The only one not getting paid here will be the one at the top that loaned out the arbitrarily printed money in the first place. Not that they need anymore money. And besides, they are literally making themselves richer by creating money from nothing, loaning it out and collecting interest. Once again, the crux of the situation is, they don't have the money themselves to loan out. Back to my point though... We would probably have to monetize all debts and investments first. Then cash out or finalize any transactions that can't be supplemented with the system. Many investments would be able to carry on as calculated with the new currency (preferably dollar for dollar). Digitized capital would be completely unaffected, it would simply carry over to be recognized as carrying its value to the new currency. Physical cash would be supplied to all banks that would exchange, dollar for dollar, the new currency. Otherwise, all payments yet to be made would simply pay from the new printed currency.
I hope that answers your questions. If not, please continue your line of questions, I have many more answers.
what is this new money being created out of? and why would "Physical cash would be supplied to all banks" as banks create money out of nothing all the time (fractional lending and deposit multiplication) so there would be no banks left. what do you mean specifically by "Then cash out or finalize any transactions that can't be supplemented with the system." ? i am all for moving away from a private central bank but your answers lack detail and would destroy an economy. and finally as you said "this means all debts will be erased automatically since the old note
(which we use right now), wont be valued anymore as money. And that
holds no weight against anybody," that would devastate any person,company or country that invested in the old currency and would at best create a world collapse and ay worst a war or wars.
Mark: "Ask not for whom the bell tolls. It tolls for thee."
why are the George bush spech extracts in black and white when we had colour when he was in power, and when these speeches were broadcast in colour ? Editors do this all the time and I hate it.
Every 80 odd yrs they is a depression we are over due thanks to money printing.
An excellent documentary, but..... several important items were missed, and here they are.
1) People were unable to pay for their homes, (sub prime mortgages) not only because they had lost jobs, but because their payments were not fixed. If your monthly mortgage payment goes from $600 to $2,000 a month after the fine print kicks in, you won't keep your home. This doesn't mean people were not lent money they couldn't afford, only that they were suckered for a short term money grab. (the new American dream) All the talk about keeping interest rates high in this documentary is a joke. Since the economic collapse of 1929, money is now based upon your own labor. (debt) Since no one is backing the currency with any 'real' investment, why would anyone pay interest on a loan to begin with? Interest is the ultimate inefficiency in economics, and reinforces the status quo for the elite. (Rothschild family - estimated value 500 trillion dollars)
2) The word 'derivatives' is entirely absent from this documentary. These 'puts', 'calls', hedge funds, etc are the black box(no paper trail) of the banking industry, and empowered the corporate world to make short term profits, at long term expense to those they had sold them to. (taxpayer investment) Ironic that taxpayer money is now used to bail out the very banks that robbed the people to begin with. Just ask how many billion dollars of bailout went to pay bonuses to executives who help plunder the people for their own greed.
3) 'greed' is the reason that capitalists resist the idea of regulations, because it might impede their level of insanity regarding what they want, from what they need.
Ultimately, capitalism will only lead to global slavery. This is why the corporate manufacturing moves to countries like China, India, and Mexico, where they will work for 10 cents an hour just to put rice on their table so their family doesn't starve. If capitalism is so great, how does 1st world countries expect to compete paying $30 an hour? Either China gets unionized, or North American, and Europeon people will take a major cut in wage. (take note of the destruction of unions already occuring in the U.S.)
In closing, anyone who truly studies the history of money soon learns that humanity must change our collective value from greed to enlightenment, (wisdom) and that a paradigm shift in thinking is needed, or humanity as a whole will continue to suffer the same mistakes repeatedly, because we are unwilling to learn from them! Live long and prosper everyone.
Your a fool if you think the Rothschilds are worth 500 trillion.
thats more money than the the US and china has!
Well... I haven't kept up with current global markets to say for sure... But I'm 99% sure that much money doesn't even exist globally at this point (in US dollars of cours). Unless money creation exploded exponentially in the last decade. I suppose there might be some 3rd world that could count 500 trillion in their currency globally... But 500 trillion US dollars is more money than exists in the world. Though I do believe the Rothschilds are one of the only, if not the only family, that is valued in the trillions.
Well done! At what point will the US reach 500 Trillion Bank Notes, given their current infinite exponentially increasing debt scheme and worldly converging finite resources to power such goods and services transactions, provided everything has a fair price?
I was going to address your comment but then felt it better to address the whole subject by leaving a new comment. Please check it at the top. I'm hoping you like what I have to say.
Scary .... but this is happening all over the world, who is responsible???? The corrupted politicians all over the world !!!
if this bubble bursts the whole world will go in to depression, let hope and pray it will not happen.
This is a decent film, a good introduction to the financial crisis and should give most people the impetus to start questioning the whole global system. Questioning the whole system is hard to do though because there is so much propoganda in the mainstream press and media
Personally I think we should apply the reganism and thatcherism that was so successful in busting up all the unions and apply it to the banking and finance industry, break them up and put them into public service where they belong.
10.000 billion dollars in bailouts - more than the US cost for the first world war, the second world war, the Korean war, the Vietnam war, the Marshall Plan, The New Deal AND the moonlandings..
The next time anyone says "Capitalism is the only thing that works!" - I'm going to tell them this and then punch them in the face.
Then you'd be extremely mistaken.
Like many millions of uninformed souls before, you are extremely confused as to what capitalism really is and how it works. I suggest you first get a clue and then come back to contribute to the debate..
Hint: capitalism has zero to do with bail outs or wars but I'll let you do that journey yourself.
Nope. Too simplistic. And you're using a power technique - "Oops little friend. You don't know how the big ol' world works. But I'm too busy to tell you so you have to go figure it out yourself."
Naw man. You explain. If you disagree then YOU explain how bailouts can't happen if there is a capitalistic system. They DID happen. And in the most capitalistic country in the world. And in the rest of the world, particularly in Europe. Which is capitalistic.
?? Well ??
The emperor has no clothes. No clothes. But I'll let you figure that one out for yourself..
owright kid...
Bailouts CAN'T happen under a capitalistic system. True
Bailouts did/are happening in both Europe and USA. True
Europe and USA are capitalistic economies. Well...
Ergo.... (insert your conclusion here)... and..... you'd be WRONG.... because one of the premises is wrong.
But you wouldn't know because you're too young and study of History was never much of a concern for you.
Hint: USA stopped being a capitalistic economy around 1914. And what do you get instead ?.... Welcome to interventionism/corporativism.
NOT CAPITALISM.
Sorry, I can't do much more for you right now. I know it creates cognitive dissonance but if you can get over it ( come on, there's google to start your research mate ) then, after YOU finish YOUR study, who knows, maybe you will even thank me.
Or, you can dismiss my comments and keep your well earned ignorance. You'll understand that I don't really care that much.
Apologies for re-opening an old thread.
My only problem with your post was your comment that fnertz's ignorance was age-related. Understanding capitalism requires two things: a passionate desire to learn, and the ability to think independently. This can be achieved at any age and with any level of education.
Although it sounds simple, getting to a point where you have a passion for learning *and* the ability to think independently requires a tremendous amount of effort and a strong belief in one's mind.
To clarify, saying you want to learn is not the same thing as learning. In order to truly learn something *you* must challenge *your own* ideas. Those of you who pushed Samuel to justify his position were failing in the learning department; you didn't want to challenge your own ideas, you wanted him to explain things for you. If you were genuinely interested in learning, you would have taken his comments and researched them independently. I say this as an observation, not as an attack on your persons' (life's busy, I get it).
As an aside, the point Samuel was making was that just because America says it's a capitalist country does not make it so. A capitalist government would not bail out a failed private venture. It's that simple. Best of luck.
so your saying discussion is pointless? no no no discussion is key to learning.
as an aside 'America' doesnt 'say' it is anything!
here goes:
the US economy is too controlled to be considered capitalistic. True however capitalism is present in the US. True
Samuel Gallop needs to take his own advice
so should you
@John Rearden: Apologies as well for re-opening an old thread, but any government (capitalist included) would bail out a failed private venture if they felt it would prevent their own destruction. it's that simple! (self preservation)
For the record, the U.S is a capitalist country with socialist institutions. (fire department, police force, just not health care)Since capitalism is based upon continuous growth, and the planet is finite, at what point would you be willing to admit that it has failed faster than other ideologies? I leave you with a quote from Albert Einstein.
"Man, like any other animal, seldon questions his own existance unless goaded by circumstance. As a young man, I too went through such a phase, trying to act and be like ones's fellow. Nationalism, communism, socialism, militarism, etc, while constituting diverse ideological differences, ultimately lead to the subjugation of the individual by the state, putting an end to freedom, and personal liberty".
Live long and prosper John Rearden!
saying that the US is not 100% capitalistic does not mean there is no capitalism in the US
@Samuel Gallop: I hate to burst your bubble, but capitalism is just a gentle euphemism for corporatism, or more accurately stated as fascism. (term 'coined' by Benito Mussolini - Italian dictator from the 2nd world war) Yes, it is true that on Dec. 22, 1913, the U.S government under Woodrow Wilson gave control over the U.S currency to a private corporation. (the federal Reserve) This in combination with the U.S Supreme court recognizing 'corporations' as a 'person' several decades earlier was the hammer blow to any reasonable/fair idea of trade. This is capitalism (competition) at it's worst. (unregulated corruption - greed) Since this is all factual, and not up for debate, I suggest you study the history of money yourself, and do some research of your own before condescending to others regarding their ignorance. (I am guessing you are American, no insult intended) Live long, and prosper Samuel Gallop.
@fnertz: For the record, I agree completely with your comments regarding the documentary called 'Overdose; the next financial crisis'. Since I only wish to inform, I have responded to some of your retractors, if only to help prevent further hipocracy, and disinformation. Live long and prosper fnertz!
It's really sad for me to see how much ignorance there is still around.
Please guys, take the time to educate yourselves in free market economics, philosophy, history and so on. It is hard, I know. And it's kind of embarrassing to go back and read your old comments once you have educated yourself and see how naive, puerile and plain wrong you were. But it's worth it.
I am not going to comment on the many idiocies I have read here so far.
That would take me a life time, which I can't spare, sorry.
Just one thing for the RBE guys. Hopefully you will learn about real life and individualism and recover your senses before you feel compelled to "dismantle" ( AKA known as mass murder ) "society" just because you feel it is too inflexible and in need of a change in paradigm ( forced by lunatics like you, of course ).
Sad, really sad.
what is it that is wrong with a RBE?
the only people that i ever find extremly threatened by a RBE are those who have been heavily conditioned into the logic of capitalism, which tends to mean that they dont understand human behavior, they dont understand that we live on a finite planet, they dont understand how money is completly unnecessary once you see the expansion of technology, they dont understand how creating a society that actually cares for people by giving away education, resources, and health care will create a better society over all, they dont understand how cyclical consumption will destroy or planet, they dont understand how the free market allows us to continue to produce cheap products with a planned obsolescence attached, they dont understand how every resource is threated because of this ancient tradition (religion) called the monetary system, they dont understand how money could force a bad behavior upon a majority of people in a society, they dont understand how US has the highest forms of internal and external violence ever before seen in mankind, they dont understand how 90% of all crimes are money related....they dont understand that if we were to explain to man 1000years ago of how things are today then they would laugh and call us idiots therefore trying to explain how things will be in the future we can only expect a similiar reaction from those who support the current system, however this new system wont be 1000years from now, it will begin to slowly change throughout the next few decades, especially as machinery continous to destroy a majority of middle wage jobs (as stated by MIT economist)
anyways im just making sure you arent one of the many hard headed individuals who are conviced that we have actually found the solution of mankind through capitalistic incentives, because if anything that is easily the only reason why we havnt created a peaceful world. Money and advanced technology will not mix in the future. Money is the reason for a majority of the problems we see today, and if you disagree then I would love to discuss your opinions and see the proof you have. Tearing down capitalism is easier then tearing down christianity and all the lies they claim.
Oh dear ! Please Kevin, stop making a fool of yourself and refrain posting until you get educated on the avalanche of concepts you mention so profusely without really understanding much of it, if anything at all.
I neither have the time nor the patience or self interest to teach you what capitalism really is ( you don't have the faintest idea ), what money is and how it works, how technology is obtained and progressed ( it does not grow on trees like you seem to believe haha ), resource discovery and utilization, philosophy, politics ( a branch of philosophy in case you are wondering ), or anything else you would need to have a minimum knowledge of in order to make a coherent argument.
Although you being a complete ignorant doesn't concern me the slightest for it has a cure with time and study, I am more worried about your incessant squirming regarding societal organization and advancement.
Seriously, you need to abandon those ticks, ever present in your discourse, like "creating a society". Understand that society is not an operational concept, it doesn't exist. Just individuals with name and surname do and can be defined with absolute accuracy. Society is a abstract concept to be abused by "social planners" like yourself in order to impose your lunacy on other individuals. Know this: I have the right to be left alone to handle my own life, trade and cooperate with other individual human beings if that is mutually beneficial, and pursuit the fulfillment of my existence on this rock Earth, as do everyone else, and not be bothered with the fallacies, misunderstandings and errors that plague your "thinking".
Now, you have the last word.
Don't forget to study though kid. It'll make a better man of you. Start with free market economics ( Capitalism by George Reisman for example ).
I will educate you:
1- Anyone is free to post.
2- Be polite.
3- Enjoy.
all the answers tried - I have seen them in Argentina during the 90's. I have lived them. what happened there in the year 2000 is going to happen in a global scale - because it was tested and it was succesful. Argentina - a land with incredible quantities of inmigrants . a small europe from Buenos Aires to the south. - You still have to witness the reconvertion of debt to new believers. people that had to live in the streets for a few months or years and now is given the opportunity to RE-insert themselves into the system. the worst converses. and even if they had to eat **** for some time. they will believe it was because of ''bad luck'' not because they were manipulated and treated like **** without knowing.
2012: the year when power shifted from ****heads profiting on financial speculation to the REAL PEOPLE that do or perform REAL PRODUCTIVE WORK.
This is one of the few documentaries that expose the truth. The tragic thing is the facts are not some hidden conspiracy, they are the topics of nightly headlines. The government told us they were going to do this. We all knew the economy was sucking after 9/11 and that the government was boosting housing to 'stabilize' the economy.
What is tragic is that everyone would rather think it is some secret trick by a few bankers that has brought the world to it's knees. It's not a conspiracy, it's stupidity. That is the frightening thing. And all the people in the public who viciously attack this viewpoint in defense of their dear leaders who they have never dared question. Barney Frank is a predatory lender. And he was doing it on behalf of the public.
Now people are giving the government another free pass. They are saying that it doesn't matter what laws banks had to follow. It only matters what they did in response to those laws. No one is willing to question the effect of the government intervention in the market itself. And then... they ask for more government intervention to fix the problem that government intervention caused. The crisis is in our minds. That is what makes it so dangerous.
@Mark Stouffer.
At one time, there were these peoples who took care to write and vote a US consitution that prevent US Gov. from mingling into private affairs just as justice dept. should be kept secluded from the politic power?
Easy to see in this docu that it's far from even being a rule of the thumb.
I wonder how to call, qualify a government that acts as a private investor who vote or take commercial decision within a corporate company?
It just ought to be a banned word in the USA? Taken off of the dictionnary.
Pierre.
this looks like it was the project of some film student. One with an IQ of about 90, and a drug problem. If you want to see a good documentary about the debt crisis watch I.O.U.S.A ...its also on this site.
@mike jones,
The docu state (Somewhere) that the author is a Sweed.
Being so, even with an IQ of 90 / 120 and a drug problem that still permit him to be part of such docus, he remains in a much better situation than you.
Meanwhile, go pay your taxes so that Obama can pay back your communist friends, you lucky man! :-)
Pierre.
This is a white wash documentary....warning!
@ericthefool,
The fool being the family name, you sure presented us a well documented argument!
Very usefull...
Pierre.
TECHNOLOGICAL UNEMPLOYMENT
Why does no one talk about this? Robotics and Computers AKA automation is replacing all our traditional AND service economies!!! The old jobs WILL NOT RETURN... they are now in CHINA. Besides, why would ANYONE want to be a robot in a manufacturing plant, when we have robots to do it ( This the automotive industry, remember all those robots building cars? Google ROBOTS on youtube and you will be BLOWN AWAY by how incredible automation have become.
You can throw money after unemployment, but the point is all those jobs are now AUTOMATED or in CHINA...
So, we can either start thinking about TECHNOLOGICAL UNEMPLOYMENT or ignore it and wonder why the world is falling apart.
I think automating everything BORING is a blessing not a curse !
But, there is still REAL work to be done... like Solar Panels, Wind and gardening and connecting with nature again. Humans act like ALIENS and think they are not part of nature... this is crazy!
I'm an under-educated pseudo-intellectual (which means I'm dangerously stupid instead of JUST stupid) but it seems to me that one of our most overblown fears could just as easily be a convenient solution to a baleful of current economic woes: Social Security & the Baby Boomers.
1. Repay what has been borrowed from SS.
2. Encourage retirement with the use of incentives (2 to 5 years of modest tax breaks) so the Baby Boomers on the cusp (those who still feel financially unable to retire) can retire NOW!
3. Millions can get back to work as a result of the newly created job vacancies and start paying taxes again.
Oh yeah, and legalize weed...
Social Security doesn't work that way.
@Michael Blair,
One thing you omited...
As one retire, he/she need to be replaced?
Let me take for granted that you are located in one of those "G8"?
As the generations went by since humankind got freed by "The Pill", we don't have the specialised workers we once had.
& Here, I don't mean only pHd or university graduates. Not at all!
I seen many "Boss" scared of taking risks.
(25-30) of practical experience doesn't grow in trees...
There's a few factors like this one.
However, I must admit that I just couldn't care less! The minute I can dumpt them, I will.
Pierre.
The comment feed below is wonderful! I encourage anyone (regardless of the above documentary that I haven't even watched yet because this dialogue was so engaging) to read/scroll through these comments. Many commenters are incredibly educated and what's most important - their differences in opinion are genuinely smart and well-thought out. Any reader will be allowed sort through not just one smart mind in regards to our economic situation, but many!
First, just because people are right once doesn't make them right for everything in future, that is the ridiculous fallacy underlying the argument of this film, appealing to the authority of the past and over generalizing based upon one anecdotal data point (BRING MORE DATA OR SHUT UP!)
The issue is that the bail outs have been so small in comparison to the kind of money it takes to create a bubble that the claim made by this video is pretty much just stupid; if the bailouts happened every year or more, then you'd have something, but they haven't. (Worth noting, the US military spending might easily be seen as the main bubble that has been driving the US economy for 50 years.)
To create a new bubble that would move the economy like the housing market did we're talking about several trillion dollars in one shot or a steady, as in yearly, boast of say a quarter of a trillion to a trillion dollars a year for a few years running; to move the world economy, maybe $5-10ish trillion a year.
The issue with the logic here is the misunderstanding of the scale of the economy. US GDP is about $13-15 trillion a year, to get it to notice something is going to take more than one or even two $700 billion bumps, one every year or two every year for a few years, now your talking about something, world GDP is like $60 trillion, btw.
The truth is that this video is a libertarian polemic against the debt. Which is fine, but it is dishonest about it and inaccurate.
Here's the problem with libertarian arguments about the debt: The argument is that national debt is a risk, it is a drain on the government (that is tax payer dollars) and must go away.
True enough.
The problem with that is that most of that debt is held in the US and is part of the economy. The loss of it would be like closing a bunch of factories. People would lose their jobs. Sure, I agree that is a pretty messed up thing, making taxpayer interest payments the source of profit for corporations -- but that is less than a half the debt, maybe around quarter actually, but it gets complicated, so let's stick with half. (Incidentally, less than 1/3rd of the debt is foreign owned, but that is also pretty messed up, no matter how much the amount, because US taxpayers, in paying interest, are paying it to foreign investors/governments: Not exactly cool.)
BUT, the majority of the debt is either retirement investments (so we are paying interest to retirees who invested in the US) or actually owned by the US government.
Yes, that's right. Read it again, it's true.
No one talks about this last part, but the Federal Reserve and other government entities own about half of the US debt.
Look it up, I'm not lying and I'm not wrong.
So, we're actually in debt to ourselves, like we're borrowing from our own accounts.
THIS IS WHY ALL THE HUB-BUB ABOUT THE DEBT IS A LITTLE BIT SILLY; we have more important things to worry about, sure we're 50% of our GDP in debt, but at this point we need to get the economy booming again, we need education, 1st class infrastructure, national optimism, etc. not a decade of paying back money. If the economy, and by that I mean the middle class, gets to cruising again, GDP will go back to raising $500 billion per year like it used to, and our debt problems will become much easier to deal with. So, to heck with the debt, we need a job, then we can pay off that credit card, until we get good work, we need to eat, take care of our health, our house, etc. To worry about the debt now is like worrying about the hospital bill while you're laying in the road dying.
Besides, no foreign government owns more than 20-25% of US debt, and remember we have like 11 nuclear aircraft carrier fleets, nobody else has more than 1, so no one is going to come knocking on our door trying to collect anytime soon.
Essentially, here is what is wrong with libertarian ideas in general:
This is not the 19th century and even in the 19th century when things were as unregulated as they want to make it there were problems.
These folks might point to earlier and earlier, the problem there is the economy of say the 17th century England is certainly less complex and less regulated (although, there were all sorts of regulator forces that I doubt any of these people know anything about--livery companies). However, the monarch had enough power to make the economy a state run economy. But also, those cultures were very very different. Lots of things do not match up, to say nothing of the fact that the scale of things don't map onto each other at all.
Also, you want to know about the last time conditions were like what the Libertarians are calling for, just before the Great Depression and before that it was the era of the Robber Barons in the last half of the 19th century. Both periods of great poverty for most and great wealth for a few, the funny thing is today, in some ways, things are WORSE.
Listen, the world is too complex. Going back is simply not an option.
The market DOES NOT WORK UNREGULATED. It does not work like Darwinism and we can't simply say that God will see to it that fair is fair.
If there is a God, he clearly isn't giving us what's fair but seeing if we'll produce it for ourselves out of what he gives us. And if there is no God, well same difference, we need to help each other out or when we ever need help we have nothing to say.
All a wide open, unregulated market will do is let the rich and powerful become more so. It will stifle creativity as monopolies form and destroy the middle class as most are forced into poverty and a few manage to escape into the wealthy nobility. It's like letting your cat have free reign over your fish tank or letting a lion lose in a roomful of children or letting a dumb, spoiled by privilege, greedy bully do whatever he wants.
Sorry, but I know some stuff, obviously, and Ron Paul is wrong, and worse, he has followers who don't know what they should know, but think that they do.
Study history.
Study politics.
AND study economics.
It is about what makes sense, not what we wish were real.
Stop oversimplifying in service of your ideology.
The cat is already guarding the fish tank, Neal.
You're missing the entire point...especially the point Ron Paul has been trying to make. You're acting like the economy isn't regulated right now and that's the cause of all our woes. You also make the point that the economy wasn't regulated back in the 1920's before the Great Depression and that THAT was why we had the depression. You couldn't be any further from the truth.
IF you knew anything about the Austrian School of Economics, the type of economic thought you're arguing against... you'd realize that we haven't had anything close to a free market since the 1800's.
Back to the cat guarding the fish tank...
Who controls the money supply? Expansion and contraction?
The Federal Reserve. (Not the market, but fat cats in D.C. and N.Y..)
When was the Fed started? 1913. A decade or two BEFORE the Great Depression.
Who started the Fed? Rich, international banksters.
In a free market, men in ivory towers in Washington (or NY), would NOT control the interest rates for all banks.
What else caused the housing bubble, besides UNNATURALLY LOW interest rates (set by the Fed)?
Freddie and Fannie backing the loans. (The government basically said they would prop up these horrific loans.) In a free market, this wouldn't have happened. All loans would be treated the same... based on their merit. Not based on some government backing. (Another MAJOR government intervention into the "free" market.)
These bubbles would not happen without the people in D.C. setting the interest rates for the banks... and controlling the regulations to allow their campaign contributors to get rich. This IS the cat guarding the fishtank.
A free market regulates itself. You can't have a bubble for long in a free market. Government intervention causes bubbles. Not the marketplace. When you let the government say what is allowed... rather than simply having private contractual agreements... with common law to settle disputes... you let the cat guard the fishtank.
free markets don't regulate themselves. in fact free markets don't even exist, and cannot exist. Once your paypal buddy finishes that libertarian island of his. You go move there. The rest of us will stay in civilized society. I am saying this because you have no clue how financial bubbles work. Look at China. You don't think China is operating under a bubble economy? Look again, check out Shanghai's real estate market. People are flooding from all over the world to Shanghai. Yes, buying land, space, etc. In a city of 25 million Shanghai has a huge real estate bubble right now. Despite this in Asia in general they're investing more in education, infrastructure, etc. In fact that is how a lot of countries in Asia gained their OECD status. I feel the US is losing that status because we aren't doing any real investments instead we are pursuing policies that will allow this country to get left behind.I won't be in the US when this happens. But I already know five years from now the US is going to be one shitty ass country to live in where its populace who really don't know any better place in the world (dont say because it doesn't exist, because I assure you there are better places in the world to live right now) and this ignorance is what US politicians take advantage of they are conditioning you guys to accept a lower quality of living, and a lot of what some of these republicans and libertarians are saying I can honestly see that they're taking us back into a time period we all thought we left behind with the New Deal. In my eyes and luckily enough I am not allowed to pass such judgements the US already lost its OECD status and is relegated to what the USSR was at the time of its collapse. Though I think the US is going to go the route of Nazi Germany and just turn good ole fashion fascist to survive.
China is a CREDITOR nation, genius. They are sitting on over a trillion of our dollars. They have a growing manufacturing base. That's how they can invest in infrastructure. We are a DEBTOR nation. Our manufacturing bases is decreasing. We CAN'T AFFORD your little projects without BORROWING money...from China. Look what is happening in Europe. Do you think they are crumbling because they haven't spent enough money?? Or is it because they have spent WAY too much? We're next.
China is coming along because they have embraced CAPITALISM for the first time. You don't have a clue what you're talking about. You can't just print wealth. It has to be created/earned. We can't just print up money to build stuff and think that we've done something. Economics doesn't work that way. We're already pouring all our wealth into the government, paying unproductive people to sit at home (produces no wealth), and bombing brown people around the globe (produces no wealth but rather destroys it). It's unsustainable.
If we continue to borrow and print our way out of this...we'll never come out. We need to liquidate the bad debt... otherwise we're just kicking the can down the road. It was the libertarians who have predicted all this would happen, btw.
All printing money does is impoverish the middle class by destroying the value of their savings. We'll have nice roads to drive on... but no one will be able to afford gas. Wealth cannot be printed or borrowed.
Basic Economics 101
You said: ¨...but the Federal Reserve and other government entities own about half of the US debt...¨ Boy, if you believe the Federal Reserve is a government entity you´ve been fooled big time.
You also said: ¨...will do is let the rich and powerful become more so. It will stifle creativity as monopolies form and destroy the middle class as most are forced into poverty and a few manage to escape into the wealthy nobility...¨ Darn, isn´t that a perfect description of what´s really happening in the world?
My believe is that if don´t back up (and we won´t anytime soon) from this socioeconomic system, the majority of us (luckily for me I´m not included) and a greater majority of our children (I have none) will become more and more ENSLAVED to a tiny minority than we (you/they) already are.
I´m not defending this documentary since I haven´t watched it yet, but couldn´t help replying to your comment.
Maybe you know too much for your own good and at the same time you don´t know enough, again, for your own good.
My judging from reading your comment is that you are the dumbest educated person I´ve read from in a looong time.
did you even watch the movie? since it sounds like you didn't. since the military budget is less than 10% you are wrong. I agree we should minimize the industrial complex to just home defense, not nation building. But this all started with reagan allowing banks to pay credit agencies to asses junk bonds as AAA. the clinton was the one who allowed regular sized banks to become huge monopolies by deregulating "big banks". Then bush started the stimulus bs by giving these big banks who had their debt in stocks and bonds that were really junk. when those junk bonds went to shit we took another hit. then obama began giving away money like candy on halloween to big banks again, while they were recording record profits and taking vacations to the bahamas. he also gave a huge package for infrasturcue, have you noticed your roads fixed??? no, i haven't either, and even if that money went their who would it help? the thousand contruction workers in your general area. then came the auto industry, they said oh cash for clunkers, sell your perfect used car to us, so you can buy the cheapest made p.o.s. from detroit, since they make way more cars a year than the whole america needs. so by not letting bussiness do the natural thing and fail LIKE IT SHOULD WHEN MAKING MISTAKES, we have been feeding them money. what incentive does this give them to change? well none at all. And the further proble, which is the biggest problem is the fondation of our whole econimic system. We buy into this Keynsian bulls*** like it works. Its sad how the Keynsyian people always attack the Austrian School Free Market System by saying "Oh, you can't use the scientific method to prove it works." But my response is, how can you estimate the future of the economy when the people who manipulate it are humans who can make endless amounts of choices, in essence there would be know way to input that variable. Anyway, any country who is dependent on a central bank who's currency is fiat(not backed by a finite amount of something) then the way government tries to manipulate the system to benifit something always has a negative effect on another thing. So for example, when we print money for a stimulus, and lower interest rates to help boost Wall Street transactions, we hurt the value of the currency in peoples pocket, plus have to take more out of the peoples pocket through taxes. And the general accepted mean of making up that cash by your regular joe-shmo is usualy "Oh, so just tax people who make over 250k a year." but nothing could be more stupider since people who make over 250k a year are not rich people, instead they are small business owners who have that wealth tied up in company assets like workers and equipment, so what do higher taxes mean? lower amount of available jobs and lower middle class. But what happens to rich and poor people? Well the more welfare, food stamps, and general freeloading the lower class tries to do, the more strain it puts on a government to grow, so the government creates temporary programs to help more and more freeloaders, but then those programs become permanant as the poor settle in to getting their handouts every month, and the middle class pays even more taxes when it didn't have to. Now to rich people, and I'm talking warren buffet rich. Well people like George Soros then fund these government programs, and with tax payer money they collect a check too just like the poor people, so the only people getting screwed in the end are our middle hard working class. And with people who make up the small minority that are in unions today, put even more strain on the government by funding canidates who promise them more benifits, all buy taking more money away from their paychecks than a person who isnt in a union, so in a scence people who are in unions, really are almost volunteering themselves to be screwed. Thats why there is no need for them anymore, nobody gets beat at work in 2011, plus we have something called minimum wage that prevents people from getting under paid. Now on to government, as this strain piles up, and government grows, they pass things like the patriot act which takes away almost all the constitutional freedoms away from a citizen. And the answer usualy is "Well if you want to be safe, you have to give a little up." Whats sad is people view it this way. There is no way in hell that living in America you can't be given full safety without giving up your freedom, thats what america was supposed to be. But as Government grows, they will tell you the constitution is obsolete, since it prevents them from being curropt, they wont tell u that part though lol. And now finally, war. Well after promising us he would end the illeagal Patriot Act, Obama signed it to go on for the foreseeable future, why? Domestic terrorism... what is domestic terrorism? Well as both parties are seen as the status quo we will hear more about people who want to break the norm as radicals. And since this destructive path I've listed above was done by Democrats and Republicans, you will see that they will try to make a 3rd party canidate, or one of their own who stands out like Ron Paul, seem like he is crazy. Why? because if he were ellected he would change the ways we have been doing things for the past 100 years, to a way that wouldn't benifit anyone else but the people and economy(small business). This scares the powers that be since they will not have the oppurtunity to launder our money through the tax system, into their pockets. Thats why canidates such as Ron Paul will always be "crazy" to the media and big gov advocates. Because to them all that matters is profit for thier little inner circle, not the benifits of us, the citizens. In my last sentence, I know I got a little of topic but I had to, Ron Paul in 2003 said on live T.V. that a depression was going to begin, and how it was going to happen in the next five years. He stated that first the housing market would crash, we would buy up the loans, then have to print money when the loans went sour, which would devalue our currency, then our credit score would drop, and boom depression NOT RECCESION, and you know what CNN, Fox News, and MSNBC did? they laughed... Look who is laughing now? not Ron Paul since he knows the scale of how bad the situation is, but instead Bush and Obama are since they are not the ones who have to fix it. Sad really.
@Petar Vitanovich,
If Ron Paul ever get elected, he'll have to meet his boss the day after the election.
Just like any & all US Pres. that preceded him. And if he's not "Negociable", they'll cope with him as they did before.
'Talking 'about the US military budget, it should be understod that weapon production may well be USA most important commercial activity. Offically declated deals as much as the "Underground" ones such as the reselling of overstock.
And the best way to advertise any product is to make use of it.
The only cost of the Iraqui war us to now, could have paid the greedy US bank bailout.
Still hoping that some day, some WMD will be found somewhere in Iraq, the whole world thank the USA nation for having taken upon its own future in order to torture and abuse an already abused nation.
Next? Iran or China? Maybe the ex-russia?
Pierre.
wow just watched this video .....and been folowing the latest on USA bailout s*** happening with Obama
ITS HAPPENING ALLOVER AGAIN BETTER GET YOUR MONEY OUT OF THE BANK INVEST IN SURVIVAL EQUIPMENT AND RUN TO THE HILLS TO WETHER THE STORM THE S*** WILL HIT THE FAN
in five to ten years money will be worthless. better learn to barter. don't beleive me. look at gerrmany after WW2 when they were required to give reperations to the rest of the world.
I just finished watching this video and my personal opinion about it is that this video makes a lot of sense. It describes what we face up in todays days...recession coming mainly from Bush's actions and furtheron carried by Obama's actions. There are other parts not mentioned like the credit cards debt, the black money market and etc...but the things said in this documentary make sense. I also read some of yours posts and I respect all of yours opinion but theres no why offending some posts or similar to that; each person perceives things differently. As far as I saw, there was a post from a persona who was not familiar with economics studies but did a very good apolitical point. I would also say that this world would have to melt down before a new world would come. It is really sad to face up with the current situation happening in Greece, Portugal, Iceland, Spain and GB also. I live 30 min far from Greece and believe me, when I go to Thessaloniki, it doesnt look like these guys are in deep recession. It is just foolish... and I would stop here :)
Nella
yea, but student loans exceed credit card debt right now. Soo we have a student loan bubble about to burst.
I've watched a total of about 0 minutes and I think it's one of the most interesting Docs I've ever watched!!!!!1
This is obviously a Swedish documentary, hopefully it won't be as uncomfortably bias as other doc's on this site :s
The big problem with this information is the huge amount of information that is so conveniently left out.
It is not ONLY that we had a "housing bubble."
This film doesn't mention how in America, we had thirty years of "Reagan" -era trickle down. With Americans seeing that the best paying jobs went overseas. Even people with double Masters' degrees saw it happen, as research positions went over to Singapore and other Pac Rim countries.
Meanwhile we had massive immigration from people from the nations south of our border.
Americans were not seeing an uptick in wages, and they were faced with unemployment and living on the margins of their credit cards. And the things that someone as conservative as Eisenhower did back in the fifties, building the infra structure, building bridges, building community hospitals and community educational centers -that is now considered to be "socialistic." But in the Fall of 2008, our government was loaning nine to thirty trillion bucks to the Big Financial Firms - who have used worthless collateral to "pay it back."
I love all this financial crisis cos i got no money anyway so the only way is up biatch!
haha :D
Not the best doc I've seen on this, or other related topics, with that said it's not bad either. It does not come to a nice conclusion, it's a bit choppy in the connections it makes.
Nick there is a lot there, but the last paragraph says it pretty good.
The world has to melt down before a new world can grow up.
We MUST realise that the world is "dead" and the only way to get on from here is to start on a fresh!
So kill the financial system today and lets build a new world!
The plan is to bankrupt the countries of the world, one domino at a time. Create a global financial collapse. THEN, as the saviors, the very cabal of Globalist Ruling Elite & International Bankers that CREATED the problem, will then OFFER the solution:
Just one more thing. World War 3. This will move rapidly into a Nuclear Confrontation.
Problem. Reaction. Solution.
One World Currency. One World Government. Global Population Management. Global Resource Management.
...THAT is your new world kid'o, and your not invited.
WATCH this movie called: THE ROAD
Tin foil alert.
Oh, and why should I watch The Road? Is it also a documentary?
and sadly the Cabal won't succeed. The problems with them is they think they're in control of things in a universe full of chaos. THey will succeed in destabilizing everything but they will not get order back they will only succeed in collapsing civilization once again. If aliens saw us they will look upon us as very much an idiot species that on an individual level was capable of amazing things, but could never see the bigger picture of things because we all choose to submit to some bs system that we know isn't effective.
I haven't watched the doc(yet) and don't know the details of an RBE. However after reading through all these enlightening comments I can at least put forth an opinion...
People can be motivated to do things in a society where things are provided to them. I wouldn't ask to be given a luxury house, fine cuisine, a great car, or anything of the like. Absolute basic needs should be the only things guaranteed to people. Living quarters, food, healthcare, etc. And when I say basic I mean basic. We live in an age where that at least is possible.
Most people wouldn't be happy with living in a small room and eating bland food even if it could at least sustain them. They would work for more. If you want a big house...work for it. If you want more than basic food. Work for it. Even if you don't want that...if you want any of the commodities in life like TV, computers, smartphones, all of our fun little gadgets that everyone has nowadays - you would work for it. No one would be happy sitting in an empty room all day not doing anything....but at least people basic needs would be met. That alone would nearly be a utopia compared to what we have now. So what if taxes are higher because of it. If I made more than enough to provide for myself I'd be happy to help others...call it socialism if you will but I for one don't hold any negative connotations toward socialism if implemented correctly.
It's just unfortunate that, with the *real* powers that be, it would take nearly a revolution to see any actual change like this without the levels of corruption and greed we have now. And there's nothing say that anything new that even comes from that wouldn't be just as corrupt.
At religionisntallbad said....the best we can do right now is make smart personal choices and educate those we know and love to do the same. I may not have a lot of money, a nice house, a high tech phone, or anything like that but at least I'm not in debt and more importantly - I'm happy living like this. Anything I want...I'll work for the money and then buy it. My actions don't have an impact on society as a whole but the economic issues over the last few years have barely scratched me because of it.
I'd rather live like I do now than get into debt for material possessions.
I guess the point I'm really trying to make is that it's almost impossible for any of us to make an actual considerable change in society but I commend the people that do try. For the rest of us who see that there is a problem but feel powerless to do anything. Just live up to your own ideals and don't let yourself fall into the system any more than you have to. That alone impacts the views and actions of people close to you and the same will hold for them and the people they know. It may not be much but it's something.
This piece means less than nothing. Other than the film maker, who is the authority for these assertions?
all you foreigners should go to third world countries your money is worth more there your not only living the american dream there but a rich arabian prince! lol.
I watched a total of about 7 minutes of this doc before skipping around - there is nothing in it. Save your self an hour - this is really useless stock image fill with like maybe 9 minutes of dialog - in which there is like 2 salient points. Fluff.
how is it you got all that from only watching 7 mins and then skipping around, numb nutz. c'mon tell the freakin' truth, you watched the whole thing, didn't you?.......wot a knob!
’Hey rich people ... an RBE is better for you’ is not going to work. I am not telling you not to try that approach, although I *could* tell you why not to try ... who wants or needs my flimsy explanations. In fact, I am telling you to try it and understand exactly why it wont work in your own terms so you can move on to something that might :)
Yeahhhh .... everyone keeps trying to sell the RBE to me as if I didnt get a degree in economics, or cant imagine how things ’ought to be’, or havent read any literature on RBE. It always starts like ’Imagine a world where’ ... and then describes a system that isnt possible with limited altruism, or indeed without a revolution in the average individual level of consciousness in order to truly and properly implement an RBE as the idealists envision.
’Imagine choosing where to live not based on finances, the market, or jobs’. Yeah because someone at the Central Ministry of Valuation is going to judge my societal worth and determine in which apartment complex I get to live and how nice my groceries can be. There is a word for that type of economy: planned. And the concept is not in any way new. If you feel mankind is ready to properly manage a planned economy without corruption, I think you are being naive. It isn’t a secret that industry directly funds political parties and candidates to a degree that the public does not. We have a political system corrupted by industry that is not even hiding its corruption, and we have all of us given it our tacit approval by not shouting it down or running for office ourselves. I think that is proof of a kind that we are not ready to properly manage a planned economy. You will be hard pressed to force an RBE on an unwilling public ... but eventually as our mean level of consciousness increases I believe our society will organically trend towards mechanisms that eliminate the corruption and unfairness that is apparent to us all in our current society. Whether it is an RBE or not ... does that even matter ... of course not :)
There is no pot to jump out of not because there are no new options to choose, that isnt what I meant. The pot of boiling water is your country and the temperature controls are your political engine and you and all your fellow citizens are the frogs. Dreaming about jumping out is not of particular benefit to the frogs in this scenario; however, having dreamt of jumping out, some frogs could convince others to let them fiddle with the temperature controls in an effort to realize their dream. Or at least to entertain ideas of adjusting the temperature controls in a national froggy debate. I encourage you all on this path of reptilian joy :D
Every system designed until now has expected humans to behave a certain way, and the beauty of the proposed RBE is that it doesn't expect people to do or act in any particular way. It only provides a free environment where we are all free to choose our lifestyle and not forced to conform. Imagine choosing where to live, not based on finances, the market, or jobs. Chances are we would relocate to communities of like interests. This would certainly reduce conflicts. Imagine choosing what occupation you wish to practice, regardless of finances or job opportunities. This would surely make people happier doing what they want. And the most beautiful part of all is that we ARE diverse and we all want different things. So not all of us will be lazy, or want the same occupation, or want the same kind of house, or car, or whatever. A RBE uses this diversity to its advantage, and rather than mold people into perfect citizens, we consider everyone perfectly unique, and they can bring as much or as little to society as they see fit.
@ ReligionIsntAllBad
Well, it's refreshing to see that you haven't completely rejected the idea of a RBE. I appreciate all the smiley faces :D
For the "jumping out of the pot," there IS an outside because life will continue to exist with or without capitalism or human civilization. It's a matter of if we will have another pot to jump into I think. A RBE could be that pot, but people have to know the pot exists. Not saying it will, but the possibility is there, and we can build on that.
You said "First of all …. an RBE would require a great deal of altruism on behalf of its participants." Actually, when you really understand a RBE, it's not dependent on EVERYONE to be altruistic. It actually doesn't expect anything from anyone. Now, that is to admit that if everyone decides to do nothing, then the system fails, but you may be surprised to see how many people would be willing to put in their time to provide abundance for all. Wouldn't you? Why should a few or even a lot of lazy people hold us back from progressing and keeping everyone warm and fed? And who are we to punish these people who don't want to participate? Let's design a system that requires little human effort to support everyone on the planet, and then we wouldn't need so many people to be "good citizens."
When you look at our current system, (government and capitalism) in order for this to work, this system demands people to follow the law and participate in the economy. So it is no different than the argument against any utopian vision. By this logic, we can safely say WE live in a utopia, or at least the means to one.
It all starts with expanding our realm of possibility. We have to envision a future before we can create it, and right now people are convinced that this is it. I've considered politics, as was suggested to me once by a complete stranger after a short conversation, but see it as an overcomplicated process that really is bent on keeping things as they are, though it might be refreshing for people to see a politician that advocated removing government and money, thus eliminating my own job and income.
I think there are two scenarios. One is where we somehow convince the rich and those in power that they will be better off in a RBE (which they will), or a financial collapse and the global discontent with government policy. The latter is sadly what I see right now, but who knows? Even if I die and nothing gets done, hopefully I've inspired at least one individual to want to make change. We just need a critical mass of volunteers and/or the right opportunity.
A resource based economy is possibly the greatest idea of all time. Sadly, I feel that one may possibly never be fully realized :D
First of all .... an RBE would require a great deal of altruism on behalf of its participants. Second of all ... the political structure would have to actually CAPTIVATE THE INTEREST of its participants or else be susceptible to corruption even worse than we know now. I think you will find overwhelmingly that an RBE is not what America wants. (America as defined by the generalization of individual americans as best as possible). Maybe it is what is best for individual Americans, but I'm not even convinced it would be best for America as a whole.
Perhaps you could run for political office and simultaneously convince all of the other capitalist economies of the world which are now interconnected with each other to all implement a RBE at the same time. Again ... I will be watching for this on CNN ... I am not joking :D
Failing that, I suppose we will wait a very long time before moving away from capitalism of one form or another :)
It hurts me so much to agree with you, Ron. It seems that the best we economists (yes I actually studied econ) can do is make smart personal choices and counsel friends/family to do the same. We are caught in a fiscal crisis caused by political choices :/
Alex, the problem with the boiling pot and the frog is that it assumes that there is a non boiling place to jump to ... there is no 'jumping out of the pot'. Not trying to rain on your parade ... quite the opposite. I think you should consider public service, and try to sell people on the idea of tightening their belts to get out of a bad situation. In the very least you will see how incredibly difficult that task is ... but at the most you will succeed and I will get teary eyed remembering when I told you to do this as I watch your story on CNN :)
It is a very deep and complicated subject so I understand peoples confusion.
To the people who say there was no one saying what the next problem will be here is the short synopsis.....Either the US dollar looses its status as reserve currency and interest rates go up....or A Euro nation defaults on its debt....or countries who need to print more money must raise interest rates to attract the bond buyers of their debt. Either one of those scenerios will do it. And it will happen just a mater of time for one scenerio.
Take Canada or Australia for instance. They still have housing at ridiculous prices because people can finance 300k to 1,000,000 mortgages for 3 % or there abouts. If the gov'ts need to raise money for their deficits but the market is drying up for bond buying they will have to attract with higher rates. 2-3% increase in mortgage rates will stop housing dead in its tracks when we are talking about the leverage people have in their homes.
So those are some of the things that this documentary suggested as outcomes. What you do with that is up to you. I am not so sure why people would still be in the stock market with it at the levels it is now. It was a gift to get back here. take the money and run.
The original solution to the problem was to give a 3 year tax rebate to every american household. They should have given that money to the taxpayer and not to the banks. People would have spent the money on what they needed or wanted and it would have fed into those institutions that were soundly based on a operational level. But maybe none of them were soundly based which would mean that even today they are not soundly based because all that the financials hvae recieved is a pile of money to cover crap debt that may never increase in value.
There is no pretty outcome here. Our children will curse us economically and environmentally. We are ignorant and stupid when it comes to finance and economies.
PARTY ON DUDES!
@ Alex...your absolute foolishness is scary.
@ jimmschimera
Great comments. Glad that change is at least an option for you. I would say change is inevitable, whether we are willing to endure it or not.
I see our situation as a frog in slow boiling water. Slowly, the heat has been increasing (social tensions, crime, war, poverty, etc) and we've continued to adjust to the climate of our surroundings. So we've grown quite comfortable, made simple lives for ourselves and our families, convinced that this is just the way things are and will always be. At what point do we notice the temperature of the water getting too hot, and do we choose to jump out or ride it out?
The fate of the poor frog is up to his/her ability to notice when it is time to get out, and for those that choose to either ignore the problems or wait for something to change, unfortunately, they'd be cooked alive. You say change must be gradual, as most others do, but who controls the stove's temperature? Clearly, we are not the ones in control of our society, no matter how much we vote, purchase, or protest, so to try and work our way out of the system confined to the rules of that system is naive.
The best way to wake someone from a dream is not to gently nudge them, but to splash a cold bucket of water on them. The only way we can get through the change is to get through it. Like puling off a band-aid. It'll hurt for a moment, but that moment will pass. I'm not so naive to think there won't be casualties or suffering, but we're suffering right now. Let's get it over with. People will only seek change when they see the system the put so much faith in, collapse around them.
WWII after the great depression is a great example of people motivated for change, however, the people were duped into NAZI beliefs and relied too much on their leaders rather than themselves. When you look at history, all great change happened over short periods of time. Agriculture, industrial revolution, aeronautics, electricity, computers. All these things came about almost overnight and were implemented into society because of the huge benefits. When you chart these changes over time, you notice an exponentially rising curve as to how fast these innovations spread throughout the globe. Just look at what we've done over the past ten years compared to the last hundred years compared to the last thousand years, compared to the last ten thousand years. Change is happening faster and faster, and it's time we embrace it rather than hold firm to outdated beliefs.
In response to being motivated after a Utopia is formed, you assume that after this change from capitalism to humanism, all will be perfect. I make no assumption, but rather see a new society that is designed for change, because the universe is too large to reach any pinnacle of civilization. As we evolve, so will our beliefs and understandings, and a proper society would be one that reflects the consciousness and intelligence of those people. I think Utopia must be redefined, because Utopia to 21st century man may be drastically different from 1st century man. There will always be new things to discover and explore, and our motivations will likely center around the unexplored areas of science and the universe. The aim, right now, would be to start laying a more flexible foundation, capable of supporting all life on Earth, so that we can ask bigger questions.
Right now, we are so worried about feeding and sheltering ourselves, that we really don't have the time or energy to worry about much else. When we can generate a more sustainable society, we all grow together and free ourselves from drudgery. We will shift from a society built on scarcity to one built on abundance. From there, who knows? There will be flaws and there will be problems, but that's never stopped us before from taking the next step. I just believe that the problems we face today, most of them can be very easily solved. From a very simplistic and logical understanding, there is no reason for people to be homeless or hungry. We have the technology and the resources, but we've given those to "higher" authorities in trust that they will take care of things. Time to take back what belongs to everyone and not just a select few.
I hope I've been clear. Change is probably best served right away as exemplified by our dear friend Mr. Frog caught in the cooking pot. And Utopia really is a myth, but I prefer to see it as more of an event horizon. The point at which light cannot escape, but is always striving towards.
@ alex B
I agree with you that this is high time to change or at least start feeling the intense urge to change, but there are some very ground issues or factors that cannot simply be erased or deleted by a click of a mouse. It is true that humanity is at the verge of something drastic whether we may ever come to realize it or not since the efforts are so tactfully orchestrated that people don't accept to see their own silent decay and surprisingly demand the same thing that caused it. However, no matter how urgent is the issue, sudden or instant change will not be viable but if so then this will come with an extremely heavy price. This trend is very much evident from history.
Now see, if we are talking about change then lets give it a very practical and rational outlook. For the sake of it, lets divide 'change' into stages. First, for the change to happen, majority of the citizens of the world have to realize and understand the truth.Next, motivate themselves for an action, which has to be a huge public movement. All these are very foundational changes that takes a lot of time, which, I believe you won't disagree. It is evident and you will still find millions of people who refutes all these conspiracies and believes that everything is fine. My own close friends disagree to all these and are happy with the illusive wonders of the world. Therefore, changing peoples mind is the most important,time consuming and difficult of all.It will certainly take time.And then,watching all these, there will be resistance from the governing class and actions will be taken to suppress it. Many will hold back due to fear and some will become ignorant. Therefore, this change comes inclusive with time and many losses. I don't discard the risks of gradual change but also don't underestimate the extreme dangers of sudden change. Meanwhile, I somewhere tend to believe that sudden change is not practically possible.
This system is so much ingrained in our lives that to get rid of it we have to first act within the limitations of this very system and then redesign ourselves all over again.
'..I don't know somewhere I am pulled to silently believe that this world has been evolving from ages and every century is a new chapter in its evolution. And every step in its evolution is a positive change. So may be we are already a part of a positive change which is doomed. This may be my optimism which is speaking and I don't bet on this"............
But again I think, though little abstract, let say that humankind and society has achieved the dream of living in the reality of Utopia. Now, if so then what will motivate people and the world to keep going in such situation, since utopia is the ultimate without any flaws but the final?...........what will drive mankind for the next,the better since there cannot be anything better than utopia?...........It will be a complete stop then, which to me is unlikely. So there cannot be utopia and every system that we think better will come with certain flaws which will later in time demand change and so on. uncertainty is inevitable which has entropy at its core.
But whatever it may be, I seek change.
After watching this documentary, I have to say that I'm honestly concern and worried about the times to come and my own safety and the safety of those to whom I hold love for. Having watched a lot other economics, political, war, 9/11 and conspiracy documentaries news and books; I can start to see a series of events that are not randomly produced but deliberately produce by a handful of people who have one objective in mind.
I think they have deliberately created the war on terror to seek a broader control of people activities, diminish social rights, and created a controlled society which will be unable to organize to o oppose the changes to come or fight back; they are also putting the right sets in place to control food/medicine/water/energy supply globally and create society in starvation which is easily manipulated and controlled.
They are seeking to redistribute the worlds wealth into the hands of a few hundreds of families that are economically and politically powerful enough to endure the up coming events and harness all the opportunities created by the meticulously made crisis, and at last I think their final movement its the destruction of local governments, creating an economic crisis around the world, that will bring governments to its knees once they pull the plug of the money supply and starts rising interest rates.
All of those bailouts bubbles would explode, and governments would not have enough money to pay back its huge debs and tax payments would rise exponentially just to keep the governments going, there would be the biggest depression in history of humanity, people would turn against their governments, and governments would turn to the only ones that would be able to lend them, the richest families in the world (by this time, 1000x richier) just like the Rothschild lent money to Napoleon and England, governments will use this money to contain its populations under the new approved terror legislations, dictatorships will rise everywhere, and nations will fight for the very basic necessities such as food and water, that would scares by that time.
At the end there would be just one way of stopping the war, hunger, and economic recession, that will lead to ultimate destruction of the concept of nation and to a global government. But this would be no democratic government, this would be a dictatorship of an aristocratic-plutocracy that will rise in the mist of all of the chaos they have created with that sole purpose. Local governments would be to much in debt with their new owners to oppose, they will use the new authoritarian laws to suppress dissidents populations and individuals.
Every one that opposes this new regime would be called a terrorist, resistance would be the new Al-Qaeda, and they will use all the technological advantage and with no privacy rights or social rights they would be able to stop them, event before they begin. If I where to read this without knowing all the things I've learned by researching information, I'll think this is just crap, but after all of this, it just makes perfect sense to me.
Can anyone give me a POSITIVE example of a product or service that could ONLY be brought about via money?
@ jimmschimera and anyone else who wishes to read.
I couldn't have put it better myself. I think your last paragraph shows great understanding of what a RBE should be and doesn't make broad assumptions. The way I see it, we need a system that is fluid and open to change. Capitalism is very rigid/solid and very difficult to make change which is why most people expect slow gradual change. Like trying to move a mountain, though it is possible, takes an extremely long time of gradual erosion. But what if this mountain we call capitalism is a volcano? Can we move it in time before it erupts?
I don't expect a one stop shop for this wonderful utopian society, but I do see that things can be much better than they are now. We need a system that is open to change so that we may easily make adjustments as problems or issues arise. We can't predict how everything will turn out, so why do we insist on building society and our economy as if it's the final solution?
Like Bruce Lee said "Be water, my friend." It's the only way to adapt to your surroundings, and by this method, we can never be defeated.
People may think me naive, but I feel the true naivety is thinking we can sustain a capitalist society. And by capitalist, I don't just mean the American economy, but any system that puts artificial values for goods and services. As long as we've traded or bartered or purchased, we've been capitalists, seeking to gain from a scarcity-based economy. So, as long as we can remember, we've always been capitalists, and it's going to be very hard to break the paradigm.
I refuse to believe we CAN'T change, or that it HAS TO BE slow and gradual. History shows that all change has been sudden and culture shocking, and when you look at how we've developed computer technology in the last decade, the culture shift curve has gone from linear to an exponential curve.
Films like this are great for exposing the inherent flaws in a monetary system, but I've seen enough of these to know that we now need solutions. When we can break the paradigm of needing materialism and hierarchy to motivate society, we can begin rationally discussing ways of creating a functioning economy that provides for our most basic needs and morals, without imposing particular cultural beliefs on any individual or group.
We are smart and very capable. It starts with believing we can, and then we make it so.
@ez2b12
I think your comments are grounded to reality and they quite depict the real picture of the state of the world. I agree that you were not trying to present a solution to the situation rather present anomalies that are more serious and cannot be solved by utopian imagination. Here I am talking about the greed and rest which follows.Just like you I am not a staunch proponent of RBE nor a devoted critic of capitalism, but I certainly see lot of loop holes in it. Yes,it is also not possible to save the dilapidating state of human civilization by catching a flight out of it and hence RBE is not a one stop solution.But your comparison of RBE with socialism was little out of the lid!
Capitalism is not the sole culprit but it is a major deteriorating factor behind many issues. Capitalism is an economic system where productivity is privately owned for private profit, as defined. Now this nature of capitalism clearly extrapolates to competition and competition further leads to greed. This is rather a black hole of all problems. So capitalism certainly has this inevitable flaw and it has turned dangerous,as evident all around. It has indeed become a strategic move for few influential people to exploit the vulnerability of this economic system and continue the age old practice of dominance. The prime importance of life is to survive adequately and peacefully, supported by the resources around us,to which all human has the equal right for survival. But when this right has become prerogative to only few then unequal distribution and exploitation of the weak is unavoidable. So in this context I would like to call greed not exactly as a by product of capitalism but capitalism rather as a catalyst to greed which was already existent from before. Long before capitalism came into existence man were on rampage around the world to conquer civilization's in the greed of power.
RBE also cannot be the answer to all of it. Since history various economic and political philosophies were put into practice and have failed to stand upto expectations; RBE is one of such philosophies presented to the modern yet evolving world. If we look at RBE from the present spectrum of knowledge and understanding then it may look like a world which can exist only in fiction. But the evolving nature of human and this world leaves the possibility open for RBE. Equality and free access to resources has been the anthem of all the economic and political system which came in the past and so for RBE, but the difference lies in its assertion that there won't be state to regulate or control.
That is the intriguing part of RBE. The element of technology is also important and without it society will not prosper but the idea of technology taking over instinct is little outrageous. However, it is an interesting concept and may reduce errors. Despite the criticisms as being too forward of time and impracticable, I somewhere tend to support it because of its unique approaches and failure of capitalism. But if this shift has to come then it cannot be abrupt but slow and gentle. RBE in itself cannot be a solution but if allowed to evolve then may be humankind would live in a better world,if not utopia.
This documentary is a bunch of b@##$%^&, poorly put together.
The economy is going to collapse because the Italian immigrant barber thinks so ?
Well I don't think so. Don't get me wrong I love Italians and barbers but apart from the biggest bears on wall street and an Italian barber this thing didn't have much.
Greece is collapsing under the weight of its social system, not debt or interest. If the Greek did not retire with full benefits at 50 then they could pay their way.
Italy, Spain, Portugal none of these countries required a bailout, showing the strength of the major economies is enough to deal with 80% debt AND 20% unemployment, that's pretty impressive, not bad at all.
And I love how they complain about the borrowing and complain about taxes in the same breath... Big news mate: it wasn't your money in Beverly hills, it was Saudi oil money, that WE gave the Saudis in the first place.
The rich world pays the poor world for labor, resources at ultra low rates and then they lend us all the money back... at even lower rates (that WE set) what more do you want ?
As EZ said, We are far from ready. What is repeated by this theory is that humans would play the role of inventor and technition perpetually striving to advance society. Well guys one in ten people cant reset the clock on their dvd player so not exactly pioneering minds. What of all those who quite simply lack the ability to assume that role? Will they just be the dependants while the gifted take care of them all? If so there will evolve a social stratification no matter how hard you hope there wont be. The only way to avoid that stratification would be through genetic modification to ensure that all of society are MIT grads. Not my idea of a positive future.
@ Bernie406
You said: "On the case, to most the only solution is a Resource Based Economy and personally Im in the same boat."
That's not true, though I don't think you intentionally tried to mislead. Most people do not even know what a resource based economy is and when they find out they do not support it. It's too much like socialism and you see how people have attacked Obama just for making some vague comments that sounded sort of socialistic. Resource based economy should be called what it really is, a technocratic socialism.
You guys should read A Brave New World by Aldous Huxley, this is just one example of the cold indifferent ways of a technocratic socialistic society. A repeated phrase in the book is, "Every one belongs to everyone." which reflects a socialistic thought process. People are no longer born or allowed to be whom they wish. Instead they are engineered in a factory by scientific methods and conditioned through out infancy to fit perfectly into a certain class group that has a predetermined role to play in society.
I realize this is an extreme and not what you guys are proposing, but its not too far off. The technocratic socialistic society you are suggesting could easily evolve into this distopia. Besides i don't believe for one second that you guys know what you are asking for when you say we need a depression or total collapse to show people things need to change. Once again you are ignoring human nature and established history. Depressions of the past and collapse of other nations has rarely if ever brought about positive efforts or coaxed out the better nature of people, so what makes you think it would happen this time. Besides what do you guys know of real hunger and desperation? Do you realize how many economies around the world depend on the US? Have you thought of the fact that world war would almost certainly ensue? Is it worth this much death and suffering to try out your experiment?
Another thing to consider is that we do not have the technology you are talking about as of yet. So if a collapse or serious depression hits who will event this technology, how would they actually produce it? How would we decide where and why a "Fresco city" should be with no organization or government to lead the way? Don't tell me you think we would self organize and be able to come to consensus, thats just niave. Its much more complicated than you guys are letting on, and will only get more so after a depression or collapse.
Don't get me wrong I think some of the ideas in zeitgeist are wonderful, just not the plan as a whole. Yes computers and technology in general should play a larger role in assisting us with the worst jobs, helping us keep a running tab on what resources are available, maybe even have more input into our decision making processes. That said they should/will never be in control. And no, all our problems are not technical in nature. Crime is not a technical issue, nor is addiction, or failure to inspire our youth. I mean we still have creationism versus evolution going strong in this country and you guys think we are ready for a resourced based technocratic socialism, nope not yet.
I actually agree with Alex B. Since the beginning of the crisis I have been saying that now is the time for things to go really bad so people can see that things need to change. This epyphany has'nt arrived yet, I'm afraid.
@Bernie
Very thought provoking idea . So I would start with this perspectives . Bear with me :) So first it was local then we went global now the next is exo (greek word means outside, external it is used to mean interstellar, space-oriented ). Necessity drives evolution and development. Imagine a moon base with resources ( or a Mars colony if you will but that's too far fetched) scarce and transportation extremly expensive they have to use and develop state of the art technology and resource managment systems. In my humble opinion that will "retroeffect" Earth and as a new wawe (one company uses it gains competetive advantage the others have to compete so they use it too ). We need only the trigger that will set fire to the whole world . Efficency and waste mangment is key to sucessful resource managment. By chance how do they fight one of the most pressing issues of today climate change? (of course it's a myth :DD) With increasing efficency and better waste managment solutions. of course they talk a lot about sustanability and renewable energies but thats not where most money goes...
@ Bernie
We are slowly but surely taking the edge off from human life:
1) First we removed the burden of going hungry, by hunting.
2) Then we removed the burden of having to look for food and move around because of it, with agriculture. We could now just chill at home.
3) Then we got to have easy knowledge, with the printing press.
4) Now we can move around easily and cheaply with gasoline.
5) Then came contraception, sosex meant play times instead of baby cries.
5) Communication is now universal and free.
I say, we are moving forward, despite greed and control freaks. When petroleum fails to give us all these freedoms, somebody will figure out something else, because there is too much money to be made and humans love to compare clothing and cars so they can get the best mate. Why stop now? Things will improve, pollution will be reduced, medical advancements will continue to make ways. I don't think we stop here. I say we will continue to try to have as much fun for as little effort as possible. The various 'evil' forces will continue to be evil, because unfortunately not everybody can be rich and famous.
I think there won't be a transition, there won't be a collapse. There will be more people not being able to get cheap houses and change their cars every 6 months. Change and wealth will come more and more for those that study harder and that develop their social skills to become more and more connected to good ideas and good people, in whatever their fields of expertise. The word team is more relevant than ever.
The efficiency of it all, as in, how fast we can all living in a world that feels like that Venus Project idea from jacque fresco... well... that seems to be a long ways away.
First of all I love this website, because it asures me that the common person does care and can draw an opinion of its own. Which is a value gradually vanishing, specially with the star of the FACEBOOK generation. On the case, to most the only solution is a Resource Based Economy and personally Im in the same boat. However I would like to hear peoples opinion on how long would it take or how diffult would it be to transition? To me that raises more concern, just by reading the comments we can all draw the conclusion that not everyone is on the same page. Can we measure the dilemma in a higher scale? How could the entire U.S. be covinced? I strongly agree with those who want to change the system regardless of the method. Can things get better or worst? Of course they can but we wont find out until we do something!
@Codie.
So, I hear you asking: how can everybody's living standards stay where it is? The short answer is that it ain't happening.
However, there is room for growth for those that work hard to innovate, usually done when several people combine their brain powers and have financial backing. Most importantly, there will always be room for growth for those that sacrifice, that are saving and investing, eating the same dry ramen noodles all week: men on a mission.
As we say in my country, "eating your lunch then puking it to eat it again for dinner."
At this moment and time(15 mins), I believe we will Borrow,Tax,Spend. Repeat.
This documentary is put together very well. However, I was pretty disappointed at the end. For a film called "The Next Financial Crisis" they didn't really talk about what will probably happen... it was just a recap of our financial history, which I already knew.
What I want to know is this: What's going to happen to a person like me working part-time at a pizza shop who has $35k in student loans and is considering applying to graduate school? What happens to Joe Everyman, USA? Is minimum wage going to plummet, and we have to live off beans and rice? Do we all lose our jobs and have to live in squalor? Or is it just the "big guys" that fail? I think that's what people really want to learn, so we can prepare ourselves for what's to come.
every thing is as it should be and will always be as it should be.
@ Alex B
First of all if you want to comment on what i say, feel free. I am only saying I have no desire to argue with you. If you are going to comment however stop with the straw man arguements that you put in my mouth. I never said or talked about the things you responded to.
As far as you telling me to keep my thoughts to myself, excuse me I had no idea you were now moderating the site. I will not comment again. This place has turned into nothing but people argueing silly conspiracy theories and selfmade economist and social experts preaching. Just because someone doesn't take you serious they are what was it, "Too busy to even consider the possibility of anything better." Maybe they/I just think your arguements are niave and pointless, and that is their/my right.
Not everyone wants to go round and round with someone so bent on the fact that they are right, you can say it doesn't matter to you but I have read you rants before and it does. Plenty of people have made valid arguements against your pet theory and you simply find a way to not answer them but keep preaching, so excuse me if I want no part of it. Have a nice day, massa Alex.
Has anyone thought that because people are so concerned with their own personal wants and needs within their own lifetime, that nothing ever gets done? Nothing changes if people don't act. What do we leave behind for the next generation if we don't start cleaning up our mess.
@ ez2b12
You've definitely got balls to throw social commentary out on a public forum and then expect no one else to respond. With freedom of speech comes responsibility. I'm all for it, but if we all just said "...well, that's just my opinion and it's never gonna change," then everything ever spoken would just be noise.
I know I shouldn't be surprised, but it really saddens me when I hear "RBE is never going to happen in my life time so have fun ranting on and on so obviousely convienced you have the answers." I've given no answers but tried to open the door of possibilities. I do advocate a RBE, but I am all ears for something else so long as it presents good arguments and has considered all aspects of society. I think what most disappoints me is that people feel hopeless today, simply because they can't see beyond the horizon. Too busy to even consider the possibility of anything better. If this is what life amounts to, count me out. It's not a valid argument to state that change will not happen in your life. That's a selfish notion that takes nothing but your own personal experience into consideration.
Basically, keep your statements to yourself if you are not prepared to have someone challenge you. I'm not looking to be right, I just want to provide perspective on our situation and show people that there can be solutions. This documentary did not give any, so I'm here trying to spark what little hope I can in such dark times.
A financial collapse is inevitable, so what are we gonna do about it? Sit at home and whither away if you like, but I am concerned for the well-being of everyone and find no consolation in only taking care of myself. We have no right to complain if we are not open to solutions. Complaining by itself is just a waste of time and energy that could be better spent crafting ideas. Even if I should not see such change in my lifetime, I can die knowing I wasn't willing to settle for less.
To everyone:
Can anyone explain to me how the hell an entire modern society would collapse without a full blown oil crash or a giant meteor hitting the earth? It makes no sense! I am sorry, but really I find it incredibly unlikely that americans would let all that awesome infrastructure collapse and rot to dust.
Sure, there is a bunch of bad companies selling crooked medicine, government is chemtrailing our air and screwing with our heads in the media, but really, total collapse?
What I think it will happen is that the rich will get richer, the american dream will become more difficult and it will require bigger sacrifice, and those that have to pay rent will stay there...unless...
I waited through the whole thing to find out suggestions of what we could do and all I got was the last guy saying "we've got to do it, or else."
No "ish" sherlock.
@Samusakis
In short, the same money is just worth less than it was before and that is why it seems to disappear! RBE is just another way to frame socialism without calling it socialism! I should point out that my comment is not negative.
I think socialism is a better idea than what we have now, an undemocratic democracy with something we falsely refer to as capitalism.
I don't think we will be able to save ourselves from the logical end result of this downward spiral unless we discontinue basing our markets on fabricated financial forecasts that continuously disrupt order after fiction meets reality head on. Enron is just one that was caught out of thousands of companies directed by similar business ethics that continue with crimes undetected. Their partners in crime, Anderson Consulting, had their tentacles in just about every corporate and government operation in North America. I have a hard time believing that Enron was just one bad egg in the basket and considering the level of government corroboration, it is plainly obvious that such behavior is tolerated so long as no one is caught by a watchdog or exposed by a lowly whistleblower!! When that happens, there is no loyalty among thieves, the political accomplices tuck their tails and scramble mad for cover. The breaking point is too close for comfort now and precarious enough that we are capable of creating a crisis simply by considering it's plausibility. The media creates the fear that drives the panic and all of a sudden, we are in a financial downturn. If circumstances happen to fuel our emotions somewhat more, we find ourselves inside a financial crisis created by our own fear.
A perfect example of Baudrillard's "precession of the simulacra".
Besides I never once even mentioned morality in my statement. I talked about responsibility and ethical behaviors. I never said we should just tell people to be more responsible or ethical either, boy you like straw man arguements don't you. I did insinuate that maybe we let our children get to caught up in pop culture, like watching too much tv or getting to obsessed with their favorite musicians lifestyle or certain documentaries that i will not metion, but I never said this was in itself a solution. Now carry on if you want, I am going to bed.
@ Alex B
First of all I offered no solutions at all, did I? So don't put an arguement in my mouth and then prodcede to attack it, friend. Second I never implied that all was well in the past, we had racism and many other issues. I only wanted to make a point, does that mean that I have to continue to argue this completely mute point with you over and over? RBE is never going to happen in my life time so have fun ranting on and on so obviousely convienced you have the answers. It really makes no difference to me. Now if it is ok with you I have better things to do, am I now allowed to make statements without you assuming so much and gearing up for an arguement with someone that just doesn't care what you think? So full of p*ss and vinegar, how old are you anyway? Nevermind, who cares preach on Reverend Alex.
@ ez2b12
So, let us assume that money isn't the issue, and that it is this innate greed that drives humanity to self-destruction. At this point, your inferred solution would be to somehow bring morality "back" into society, as if there was this magical point in time when all was swell and all was morally sound. Maybe for middle class white families, but what the hey, let's continue for argument sake.
Why do we then still need money? No one can really justify any practical need for it other than to incentivise people to do things they wouldn't otherwise do. Kinda the definition of willing slavery and prostitution.
Maybe money isn't the problem, but is it the solution? Is it what really makes the world go round? Even if you don't believe money is a root cause of these problems, it sure as heck ain't doing anything about 'em. It appears to be making things worse.
If you think we can just tell everyone to be moral and all will be well, you may be misguided. Tell the starving man with no money and a family to feed to be moral. Tell the rich man he has to give up his Lamborghini and his billion dollar lifestyle. To me, that sounds way more improbable than what a RBE proposes.
You're asking that everyone take their fair share of the pie, but who decides what's fair? And, should you feel the need to indulge in more pie, what you're essentially doing is taking from someone else's share. So what incentive is there at that point to grow a business and make a little more money if you can only have so much? We can't all be rich when the pie is only so big. What we've relied on is for that pie to continuously grow so that there might be more pie for people to have, but like the law of physics says, "you can't create something from nothing." So what are we actually doing? We're really just flattening that pie and stretching it to such lengths that it's as flat as paper. This doesn't create more wealth, it just gives the illusion of more by creating less for everyone, while the super rich hold onto their huge share.
We can't expect people to change and be "moral." If we want people to be moral, it should be built into society. Where profit is concerned, you are rewarded for immoral and unethical behavior. It's a double edged sword where you can choose to be greedy and wealthy, or moral and poor. We have both types of people on earth. So how might we be able to interchange these attributes such that wealth is equated with good behavior and poverty with selfishness? It can be as simple as learning to share by creating a society built on sharing. Something taught but often forgotten from preschool. The internet is a great example of such a network of sharing ideas and digital property. It's within us to change, but we need a suitable environment to do so. We can't directly change people, so let's work with something we can change... our environment.
@ steve
Just because early prototypes didn't work doesn't mean we can't have a "communism 6.0" or something. I know the Venus Project and Zeitgeist won't like me associating a RBE to communism, but fact of the matter is, the concepts are very similar, though their methods differ. When you look up the definition of communism, there are two definitions. One with a lower case and one with an upper case "c". The upper case says all resources belong to the state, and lower case says all resources belong to the community. I don't think we've really tried the latter.
Consider when we aimed to achieve flight. Did the first attempt work? Did the second? Third? So on and so forth? No, but after making adjustments through both trial and error, and scientific observation, we were able to craft massive metal birds that carry us across the world. You're right in saying that if we simply repeat the old Communist ways of the past, we should expect the same results, but the proposed RBE is an updated version of communism with distinct differences.
And we will continue to improve the RBE as we find out what works and what doesn't. I think the strongest aspect of a new economy will have to be flexibility. Right now our society is very rigid without room for change or compromise. Humanity 2.0 is gonna have to learn to be flexible in its structure and beliefs. That way, when problems arise, we won't have to dismantle the entire society to rebuild anew. We'll simply adapt to higher understandings of the natural universe and ourselves.
Well I will say this much, I may not agree with you guys about RBE being a viable option but the crash is definetly coming. I really don't see capitalism as the culprit here, though I to detest profits being the one and only incentive. If all we do is look after the bottom line we will miss out on so much that could make life more efficient, environmentally friendly, and sustainable. Need for constantly expanding markets, cyclical consumption, and excess is killing our planet, setting unrealistic expectations for our youth, and defeating our ingenuity. But are these things the products of capitalism or greed, I would say the latter.
Some say greed is a product of capitalism itself, I don't think so. We had capitalism in this country for many, many years before excessive greed became common place. So why is it that greed has infected our nation to the point of collapse? What drives each and everyone of us to believe we need a three story home, the latest sports car, and/or only the nicest designer clothes? I know I will catch he** for this statement, but I feel it is pop culture and the fact that almost my whole generation and those coming after have been raised on watching TV and aspiring to be like our favorite movie stars or musicians.
We say that we know the difference between this imaginary world were no one ever works or struggles yet has Gucci clothing and drives a 1,000,000 dollar sports car. But I believe in our subconsciouse we feel that something is wrong if life isn't as luxurious and excessive as in the movies or the entertainment industry. This creates unrealistic expectations and often violence and crime, people feel cheated by reality and decide they will do whatever they have to to "get theirs" as they say. Problem is they do not only abandon decent productive behavior to get more, the more is never enough.
In the past one often heard children say that there dad was their hero, even if he was a simple factory worker- which there is nothing wrong with at all, my dad happened to be a coal miner. Men often said they wanted a girl just like dear old mom, creepy as this might sound I think it was admirable in a way. My point is that at one point people here in the US prised responsibility and ethical behavior over excessiveness and splendor. Our entire system was set up to promote this desirable behavior. This is no longer true at all. After and including my generation the youth of this country decided that it did not matter how you got your money as long as you got it, and plenty of it. No longer was it enough to surviuve and pay the bills maybe provide something for your childrens future. No, now you get all you can and then keep getting more, no matter what you have to do to get it. This is the root of the issue in my eyes, but hey wtfdik right. After all I live a moderate simple life on a farm, no beautiful women surrounding my Benz as I sip my gin and juice while counting my blood money.
@ reasons voice
also... sorry for misunderstanding your Mel Gibson quote. It was bad on my part as I "assumed" you were poking fun at him as most people do and in turn saw that directed towards me. I may have read it hastily as I was working and watching documentaries. Reading it again, that's actually a really funny quote. People may not like Mel Gibson, but I sure do love his movies.
peace
@son of zaphod
“ALL our common problems as a species are technical”
By the very same token, you would have to acknowledge that all our problems are strictly material.
I don't know if you're willing to make that leap, but I'm not.
The simple truth is that the collapse of the great meta-narratives:
"truth" --> God as Truth,
"knowledge" --> March of Progress ,
"right" --> Capitalism and Formal Democracy,
"wrong" --> Communism and Totalitarianism,
has left us asking 'why?' more often than how.
@ RBE doubter crowd
With respect to R.B.E., I think that it is one possible way of re-organizing society that isn't likely to be worse than what we have now.
Simply put, RBE is about things that we Could do, and don't do because they are not 'economically viable'. Now economically viable in itself translates to 'not consistent with our current mode of social organization.'
In other words, doing things that are not economically viable redistributes power and social structures. Not saying that I am for RBE, particularly because I personally suspect that by its very nature RBE requires horizontal social structures. I may be wrong, but wtfdik.
---
Other thing that I find amusing is that none of the talking heads are willing to go to the end with the line of argument that they are articulating. They think that capitalism as a mode of social-economic organisation would survive a global bubble. I simply don't think that this is the case.
As Reasons Voice points out, socio-economic systems typically collapse under the weight of their excesses.
RBE sounds good,but so did communism.Did you know before ww2 7 million Russians were killed so that society could all be at the same ''level''.I just think the jump to RBE is to extreme,as a society were not ready for it.
However I could be wrong,and hope I am. Just sounds to good to be true
You guys talk in niave broad terms and never get down to the brass tacks. You are basically saying that we will all wake up one day and realize that we must work for the betterment of all and not just the betterment of one. Nice idea and a beautiful dream, but just that only a dream. What is going to spurr on this revelation? The depressions of the past sure haven't. People do not see eye to eye and you can not make them no matter what you offer, if you don't know this yet you will learn it as you get older. Many people through out history have tried to promote what you guys are promoting, minus or plus a few minor concepts.
It has never worked whether you like it or not. If we are going to survive idealizing a society devoid of the negative aspects of human nature is not going to work. You guys deciding what everyone should value or want out of life is not going to work. Socialist tried it, no go. Not everyone wants to travel the world or live in a technocracy that is basically a dictatorship with a computer in place of a tyrant. Alot of what you are talking about sounds great to me, but I know many that would find it bothersome and unrewarding. They simply want to stay at home and be left alone, and they have this right.
You guys talk of technology that has yet to be created and problems that have yet to be solved as if they are nothing. I, along with tons of social scientists and economists, find your dream beautiful but not practicle. Too many unanswered questions for me to have faith in it. And do not start presuming what I have studied or not studied. Or what I personally like or dislike or am capable of. One of you genuises keeps trying to insult by saying the problems we see with your plan are our own inadequecies. Well that is what people do genuise, they judge things by what they know of human behavior and so forth, knowledge gained from the years of experience, 38 years in my case, they have dealing with such issues.
Maybe you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss those that disagree with you, junior. I live on a self-sustaining farm in a very rural area, I know how to farm and hunt for a living. I know all about the zeitgeist plan for the future, used to support it until I realized how many issues it doesn't even consider much less solve. I also have worked in information technology for years so I know what types of technologies are out there. Even the leading AI guys admit they will not have the technology you speak of for years to come. We can't even design a decent home pc so far, in my opinion. We are still addicted to fossil fuels for christ's sake and you guys are talking about machines to do all the work and make decisions? I have also studied economics in depth and know what peoples tendencies are when it comes to compensation and trade. I have a minor in history and a major in theology and am currently working on a degree in physics. As badly as you all want this to be a viable idea, it just isn't- yet.
I never said you should give up though, just do not show your cards before its time to bet so to speak. Go and invent the solutions and technologies needed and maybe people will take you serious. No one has ever made a sucessfull proposal without first having all bases covered. You can't simply throw the concepts out there and say now, everyone get behind it and do all the work. As long as you keep acting like these valid questions you can not answer are just minor insignificances- you will fail. And for your own good stop idolizing Jacque Fresco so publicly, it makes you sound cultish.
@son of zaphod
"ALL our common problems as a species are technical"
"The Venus Project have been and are constantly being thoroughly thought out on many different levels and to think otherwise is just ignorance"
A fellow Transhumanist :) I agree.
Logging in, read the comments, will watch doc.
@ Reasons Voice & ez2b12:
Again with projecting your ideas and yourself onto the concept of the Resource Based Economy and it seems that you have barely even scratched the surface of the idea of a Resource Based Economy.
The R.B.E. is not a Utopia, its not the perfect pinnacle of society that you assume! A Utopia is a pipe dream, I agree with you on that, its something that can't be built and if it could be it would stagnate our future and limit what our future children can do as they couldn't improve upon apparent perfection.
A Resource Based Economy is the best we can do with what we have and we have the technical know how and the resources to accomplish it. Essentially its using the Scientific Method and applying that to society. Jacque Fresco got his inspiration for the resource based economy from the human body! The Human body is one organism with many working parts, it's a microcosm within a macrocosm!!
What if I said that your car with its thousands of parts can be made more efficient with only 60 or 70 parts and last a lifetime before it needed any maintenance and all you would be required to do would be to take out the old worn part, replace with new part, send off old part which would be broken down and recycled into something else! How would that fit into your view of the world? It certainly wouldn't be implemented in todays market for it makes the service industry and so many other industries obsolete!
With the advents of technologies like Nano technology the practical applications are endless! Self erecting and self repairing structures and vehicles will free up more time for us.
Machines can be made from certain materials that make them durable for longer periods of time, requiring little to no maintainance. Who repairs them? We'll, we do! Or they repair themselves. There is a metal alloy that can remember what its shape is and if damaged it can self repair by applying heat or an electrical current to it, it's called shape memeory alloy, its a Nickel Titanium alloy and they exist TODAY!
Again if you researched the R.B.E. you would see that there are technical teams that research and develope new intelligent ideas and develope more efficient means of doing things. Imagine the army being retrained to be problem solvers not just to blow stuff up and create more problems!
Machines don't do the thinking for us, it is we, us people, who do the thinking for them!! After all we program them! Does a vending machine tell you what to eat or drink? Does a telephone tell you who to call? Does your car tell you where your going? No they don't!
Who does all the dirty jobs, well that would be another technical problem, requiring a technical solution!
Why would people fight over a penthouse appartment with a static view no matter how stunning, when you could travel the world and see its many wonders? Stay in Egypt one night then off to Tokyo the next as so on till you found a place you call home, or how about Jacque Frescos design for cities IN the sea? Could you imagine how stunning that would be?!
You talk of Human Nature, well if that we're true then we would all still live in the stone age as there's no room for improvement as its our nature to destroy things, be greed and self centered, hence no evolution and no imagination and no advent of technology! However, thankfully this is not so, greed, hatred and self centeredness are learned along the way in the journey we call life. A chinese baby taken from china and given to a british family WILL grow up to hold british values and morals, a baby born in nazi germany during WW2 and taken to America WILL have the values of any other american of that era. Ask an eskimo what he wants and he wont say a 52" Plasma TV and a V8 Sports car! No he'd ask for plentful food and warm shelter through the harsh winters. You are the product of your environment and the environment you live in is the product of you! Garbage in, Garbage out!
The world wide Resource Based Economy is a world wide community with everyone in it working together and realising that what benefits them benefits everyone. The smarter your child is the better my life will be and vice versa. Not only is the Resource Based Economy a change in society it's a change in peoples values and perspectives. This you fail to grasp. The world would be a macrocosm and each of our own places where we live would be the microcosms, all working in harmony towards a common goal. Why would someone steel something if its readily available to them anytime, anywhere, anyplace!? You couldn't sell it and then why would you hoard soemthing? Especially if that something is plentiful and abundant? HOwever, if that something does become scarce then development into alternatives would kick in automatically before there was a crisis, because the non-empathic machines have been pre-programmed to do so along with human supervision, with the aims of achieving the highest efficiency, minimizing human suffering and environmental harm.
ALL our common problems as a species are technical and can be solved by using the most overlooked resource available on this planet today and that is human ingenuity!
Ghandi said it most eloquently, "Be the change you want to see in the world."
The Zeitgeist Movement and The Venus Project have been and are constantly being thoroughly thought out on many different levels and to think otherwise is just ignorance, the definition of which is, the state of being uneducated or uninformed.
@anti-RBE peeps
I understand this idea of incentive to do "dirty" jobs. Makes sense... but you assume that the only thing that will change is the removal of money. Addendum and The Venus Project are much more well thought out than you think. It's about simplicity.
Why did we invent agriculture? - Because we didn't want to run around picking berries no more. Why did we irrigate water? - Because we didn't want to carry heavy pails of water over long distances. Why did we invent the automobile? - Because we didn't want to walk or ride horses long distances. Hurts the feet and crotch, ya know. I could go on, but the point is self-evident.
Technology is designed to remove jobs we don't want to do and perform tasks at a rate beyond the limits of any biological entity. So rather than draw straws for who cleans our sewers, we figure out a system of plumbing that is maybe self-cleaning, or at the very least made very easy to disassemble and clean with ease.
A RBE is the seed. It's the beginning and not the end. It's up to us to get together and start solving problems. I think it boils down to people believing in these possibilities. Don't stop there and say "Nope, we can't do this because here's the problem." If there's a problem, there is a solution. Don''t expect a few "smart" people to come up with the blueprints of a RBE and then hand you the keys. We have to examine the failures of the past and really dig deep to find root problems.
Everyone is a philosopher and an inventor. You just have to be motivated to make a difference. Don't expect things to change if you're not willing to change yourself. And if you expect things to continue as before, expect another World War, poverty, financial instability, increasing income gaps, facism, genocide, suicide, drug abuse, greed, and all that good stuff we are so content with here on earth.
@Vlatko
Yeah Vlatko right name the shame of the EU ( financially of course ) and the USA , who started it all with its dubious lending practices ( sub-par mortgage ) as an example. Still wont make the forecast : "Forecasts predict all countries’ debt will reach 100% of GDP by next year. " *emphasis is on all countries* not states but all countries all over the world surely you can see now what I meant. Personally as I expressed before in my previous comments I advocate the use of a resource based economy. I just added this to avoid getting lectured about the disadvantages of our current system. But hey :) finally some discussions about economy. I like this. As for the wikipage forget it if you will use the keywords mentioned the internet is all over with related material.
@EZ; We may not always agree but You nailed that one. Which would you rather do, Spend your day guarding a huge prison full of people who just wanted a nicer view, or sit at home waiting for the robot butler to bring you your next shipment of beer and t-bones?
Johan Norberg who wrote the book which the film is largely based, is a senior fellow at the Cato Institute, a major American libertarian think tank. He makes some good points, but may have a financial interest in promoting gold and precious metals market, so maybe not so impartial. Another documentary that just came out is Inside Job, narrated by Matt Damon. More documentaries always good to study the subject.
@ Alex B
We need some way to motivate people to do the jobs no one wants to do, and trust me there are plenty of these. We need some way to motivate people to improve products and services, with out money how do you propose to do this? Surely you do not expect people to volunteer to to dig ditches, maintain sewage systems, or perform physically stressful non-rewarding work. Say you live in this RBE and need a toilet plunger- who makes it, who delivers it, who maintains the system for the logistics of this operation? How do we decide who gets to live on the top floor apartment with the striking view versus who lives in the floor level apt. with a striking view of the sewage treatment center? No matter how you design things there will always be places that are nicer for this reason or that than others. What do you do when one group of people decides the steele or whatever resources need to be used for x product or service and another group of people say these same resources should be used for Y product and services? Who will police the friut cakes? Who will fight the wars or provide for the common defense and why or how would they do this? Surely you haven't overlooked human nature to want more and always be in conflict with some other group, have you?
Listen- I watched zietgeist myself, a very interesting idea but one that is not very well thought out in my opinion. We are too far away from the technology needed and in my opinion will never have a computer capable of running a society. Computers have no sense of compassion or empathy, can not inspire others, have no capacity to think out of the box, and need energy to run- energy your system fails to provide for. Smells of scientology to me. Utopia will never exist. And take it from someone that has grown up with a father that went through the depression and has heard stories that would make your skin crawl, you are not ready for a real depression. You have no conception of real hunger or need nor do you want to see just what human nature is like in these desperate times. Utopia will be the furtherest thing from your mind trust me.
@Alex; Was not attacking Mel. You quoted a character in a movie that he played as did I. Leathal weapon 3 I believe.
@Son Of; Don't mistake reality for fear. I have the skills necesarry to provide for myself, and likely could survive without trade or barter. As long as no one arrested me for shooting dear out of season or trespass etc. As to the machines that You mention. I already adressed that in a snide way I will do so in a concise way. Those machines will break down, they will need to be repaired, and new ones built. Who does that? It is a miror within a miror issue where somewhere alone the line humans are needed to play a roll. Those humans will want some kind of reimbursement for their time. I have walked this argument before. not gonna again. My opinion RBE will not happen. And if it does will require imediate inactment of totalitarian government to stop all the hoarding, stealing and all around chaos.
@ Samusakis
This is an over simplification but bear with me. Every dollar in exsistence, US dollars I mean, is created with debt attached to it. The federal reserve, which is not federal at all but a privately owned bank, loans money to the government against bonds. Then this money is infused into the system by being offered for loans at banks. These banks loan out this money and attach more debt to it, then under the fractional rerserve system they are allowed to create even more money from thin air to loan out with interest attached. Eventually these loans come due and the amount of money in circulation can never be enough to cover these debts with accrued interest. An even simpler way to look at it is to say that if all money created has debt attached were does the money for the interest come from, you print more money to pay it and that money has also got debt attached, see the circle that is forming here. Under this system debt is money and the government and most citizens can never come out of debt. If they did this wonderful system would collapse, now thats real incentive to become more reponsible isn't it.
Sounds crazy right, it is. This is why many, myself included, advocate the return to money being created by congress with no debt attached to it. Many past presidents tried to warn us this system would never work, some went as far as to get rid of the central bank and print debt free money. This worked well until they printed too much and inflation went through the roof. People actually wall papered their homes with money because it was so plentiful and therefore useless. The amount of money in circulation controls the value of the individual dollar. Just as the law of supply and demand works for goods so it also works for money, too much and the value goes down- too few and the value goes up but we have people with no money. If we go back to the debt free printing of money by the government we must control the amount printed so as to not run inflation through the roof but also make sure there is enough to go around.
For further clarification of the process watch, The Secrets of OZ on this site, great documentary that explains in depth the fractional reserve lending practices and privately owned banking system that is wrecking our economy. Don't feel bad for not understanding economics, most do not. I only undersatnd the basic concepts, not the complicated economic structure of todays investment practices. It is no accident that it is so confusing, trust me.
Thanks again Vlatko for this documentary.
@ Reasons Voice: You are projecting your own fears and ideas onto the concept of a Resource Based Economy. Yes, in a R.B.E. people will have access to everything they need, anytime, anywhere. However this will only come about once the resource on this planet of ours becomes the common heritage of ALL Mankind, not just for a priviledged few.
The monetary system IS obsolete! It no longer is viable to our social system nor is it good for our environment!
The reasons for a monetary system, and I mean hundreds of years ago, was that resources and skills were scarce that is no longer the case!!
Abundance is everywhere and thanks to the internet its even available at the touch of a button! So how is that any different to the what the Resource Based Economy advocates and struggles to inform people of!?
Resources and skills are abundant and if you don't believe me take a good long look at what's on the shelves in your local supermarkets and all the shops in your towns and cities. They are full of food, clothes and gadgets! And take a good long look at the local job centres and college/university institutions. The hundreds, if not thousands of people learning new skills or have learned those skills but just can't find jobs!
Who makes everything and delivers everything is indeed a small detail, which, if you had read up on the Resource Based Economy, is done by machines. They are faster, more efficent and are not subject to emotions and are completely objective. They are perfect for monitoring, mining, refining, producing and transporting goods. It's just the fact that nobody has implemented this in quite the scale that the Resource Based Economy advocates!
If you don't trust machines you might as well throw out your calculator, PC, PS3, Xbox, MP4 player, DVD player, your car, mobile phone, Sat Nav, microwave, washing machine, the list is endless.
All these machines and gadgets change our daily lives, saves us time, entertain us and generally improve our daily lives. They are no more our masters than the flower is the master of the humble honey bee. However, without us these machines are useless. It seems, like the honey bee and the flower, we have a symbiotic relationship with technology and at this point in time we can't live without it. Its just that people don't trust machines even though they entrust the very same machines with their lives on a daily basis. If there is going to be a War against the machines, its real easy to figure out who will fire the first shot!
Unfortunately, it seems that people will only accept radical change, like what the Resource Based Economy advocates, when we are on the brink of self destruction. I only hope that enough people become aware of this alternative to our current social system before its too late.
I am sorry for going off on one and way off the topic of this documentary but it is linked and after all its just information. I'd like to finish of with this,
If your stranded on a deserted island with $50 Billion and no food or resources. How do you survive? There's no shops to spend the money in and no one that'll take it. You can't eat the money, you can't plant the money to make it grow more food, you could wear it but it would offer little to no protection from the elements, you couldn't build a shleter out of it, you could burn it for a while but ultimately it's useless. So overall what real use is it and what real value to your survival does it have!?
@Reasons Voice
Think it through a little bit. Dig deeper if you claim to be the voice of reason. If you want a meal, is money the ONLY way of obtaining it? No. It took people to grow and kill the food, prepare it and serve it. Money is simply a formality in which we conduct exchange of services. In all practicality, money played no real physical part in the preparation of your food.
I will tell you one thing I can think of that you might need money for... slavery/prostitution (not just sexual prostitution, but character prostitution). But then again, it's not the physical aspect of money that causes someone to do something in servitude. Religion and authority do that as well. Realistically, we don't need money, but we've developed a society that forces everyone to conform in order to survive. The many work for the few... and everyone is happy.
As far as your attack on Mel Gibson, that was unnecessary and an Ad Hominem through association. My point with that quote was to express my discontent with simply being content. "This is just how things are" is not a good enough excuse to live. That's just me.
I'm not here to prove anyone wrong or right. I just want to put the questions and ideas out there so that we may all learn a little something.
"It's not rational to fear the things that are questioned, but to fear that which is not questioned." - me
I saw Carlin live. cost me $50.00 to get in. Ohh and the William Wallace quote...that was Mel Gibson, who also said "they are actually pretty good. Wanna try one?" while munching a dog biscuit.
Economics... never understood it and probably never will.
I have questions however, do banks burn money? I mean when there is a crisis (or something like that) worldwide even, everyone is poor and all so where is all the money? Can't we all just take it back?
You know, people say '90% of worlds money is being controlled by 1% of people'
"Name something we do in society that couldn’t be done without money or Government intervention?"
Lets see, for starters how about eating dinner. You want food. The people with the food don't want to just give it to you. They spent a long time growing it. You offer nothing in return. You get no food. Simple really.
This is the system you all have chosen: CAPITALISM. No complains...until it goes wrong! Hey guys, this is it, this is part of the big money game.
"I'd rather die a free man than live as a slave." - William Wallace
Lives are being lost right now. Why drag our society out so long? I'm not looking for answers, I'm asking that we work together to CREATE solutions rather than follow blindly our government and money masters. Who has the details to how our current society works? Why is there no option to do things differently?
Name something we do in society that couldn't be done without money or Government intervention?
Like George Carlin said - "It's ALL B*llSh*t, people, and it's BAD for ya!"
@ Alex B
I totally agree with, we need this collapse and anfortunatelly many lives are to be lost, a neccesary evil Im afraid.
WTF is that in the description : "Forecasts predict all countries’ debt will reach 100% of GDP by next year." Type in the google government debt + wiki and you will see this is just a stupid pessimistic assumption and highly unlikely.
I strongly doubt that the finances of an economic powerhouse the USA would be run by i@#*&%.
I'm strongly pessimistic about this doc but I will watch it till the very end but if the s*it starts in the description (see "the forecast") maybe it will not worth it...
Well, it only took 9 months for you to be proven wrong. S&P has downgraded American debt to AA+, China is pulling back on US funding and asking for a new world reserve currency. Looks like this documentary was spot on.
Now I don't personally have a wife and kids to watch suffer, as my pay that I work hard for is not enough to feed, shelter, and clothe them. But for those of you who do it is a small price to pay. In that RBE world you will have "access" to everything and anything! No news yet as to who is going to make that everything or deliver the everything to everyone but hey details shmetails. No money, no job, no skills,? No problem! The great autonimous robo master/slave will provide it all. I like to call it the Great Gazoo.
@Alex; Great idea! Let's have a full global economic collapse because like you said it brings out the best in people. Like it did in Germany in 1937 that turned out great.
Also when it happened in France in 1788, ohh the list goes on and on about the great humanitarian events surrounding abject poverty. Or are you here to shill your RBE theory again? Sorry man but the outcome of what you are asking for will likely be another global war, massive loss of life and at least a decade of human suffering on a scale to be remembereed for the next 500 years. But hey, go chaos,! Right?
I actually look forward to a Great Depression as I feel it will be the one to end all depressions. Many people fear a financial collapse and think the world will turn to poo. I think otherwise, as it is when we are pushed against a corner, when everything is at its worst, that we rise to the occasion and are at our best. There won't be chaos in the streets. People will get together in order to survive, and we will learn greatly from such a meltdown.
Bring it on! I'm ready for some great change! This will be our opportunity to prove whether or not mankind is capable of coexisting with this planet and each other.