Derren Brown: Miracles for Sale
6.65
Ratings: 6.65/10 from 31 users.
With the cameras in hot pursuit, Derren faces his toughest project yet, going in search of an unsuspecting member of the British public prepared to adopt the guise of a pastor and miracle worker.
His chosen one then has six months to learn the trade and flourish across the pond as a convincing pastor.
The final phase of the volunteer’s extraordinary challenge sees them attempt to perform faith healing miracles live in Texas, but will Derren’s new recruit be accepted as a faith healer or cast away as fake healer?
I might as well take this verse out of context:
12 “This is what the Lord says:
“‘Your wound is incurable,
your injury beyond healing.
13 There is no one to plead your cause,
no remedy for your sore,
no healing for you.
Jeremiah 30 everyone! Taken totally out of context... :)
Love this documentary. I would show it at my church if it weren't for the occasional obscenities and filthy word. Incredible. I wish Christoans could accept the reality of miracles, but still keep their thinking caps on. Faith does not require absence of logic. Christians need to exercise faith by reading their Bible and discerning truth. Anybody studying their Bible and using their brain would easily be able to stray away from such nonsense.
So "faith does not require the absence of logic." What do you call something which entails the absence of reasoning and evidence in favor of blind acceptance? It is certainly not logical and it is certainly not a virtue, but rather the most intellectually mephitic concept ever devised.
Assuming you are both an atheist and evolutionist, do you not have faith in those who teach atheism and evolution? Certainly there is evidence to support and strengthen your faith, but it is faith nonetheless.
I would consider it entirely illogical and ridiculous to have faith in God if I had no evidence. The same goes for any belief system. Although there can only be one true faith (considering atheism a faith), a person should only discern which faith to have faith in through logic. Logic utilizes evidence.
If this is going to eventually become a discussion on the evidence for faith in God, please expect lengthy responses.
I appreciate your comment, Robert. Thanks for taking the time to read and digest mine :)
"I would consider it entirely illogical and ridiculous to have faith in God if I had no evidence " By its very nature, faith is illogical and ridiculous and there is no such thing as "evidence for faith in God," as faith and evidence are polar opposites. And speaking of faith and evidence, modern atheism does not stand for the proposition that there is no supreme being, but rather the refusal to believe in one or several due the lack of convincing evidence, the polar opposite of faith.
Evolution is a fact supported by worlds of hard evidence, predictable results and mountains of positive contributions such as virology and immunology. Can the same be said of your alleged deity or for that matter any of the myriad others?
Your attempt to place science and modern atheism on a par with the idiocy and stupidity of faith, so typical of religees and the like, doesn't fool anyone.
"Where there is evidence, no one speaks of faith. (As in evolution)... We do not speak of faith that two and two are four or that the earth is round. We only speak of faith when we wish to substitute emotion for evidence."
"Bertrand Russell"
"Faith is a belief without evidence"
"Richard Dawkins"
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith
Faith DOES require the absence of logic!!
Which bible ? theres so many versions of bibles and more
apologist versions where they explain what bibles talking snakes etc fairytales mean .
What about banned from bible parts are these included to your bible? Theres 150000 different christian religious groups/cults/churches.
150000 gods etc makes huge amount of gods wonder which god is the and and only true one :)
Maybe you could use just plain logical and open minded thinking and learn something , rather than believing blindly to some fairytales.
@ 53:52 ; he's getting 2 new kidneys, on both sides! That man is getting 4 kidneys in total! Amazing!
Religion a lethal virus for humans.
I suppose I can look at the bright side that they are revealing pranksters who pretend to be healers.
When my mother was in nurses' training during WWII the students ran the wards at night. One night my mother had charge of a boy with severe burns. Nothing she could do helped him go to sleep. She woke the head nun and asked her to call the doctor. The nun refused and told my mother to handle the patient herself. My mother returned to the ward and told the boy that she had an extra-special, secret, one-time-only pill that would let him sleep through the night. Then she gave him an aspirin from her handbag and sat with him. In ten minutes he was asleep. His belief enabled him to sleep the rest of the night. I consider this a good example of mind over matter so it doesn't surprise me that many people get a placebo effect from the ministrations of a trusted person. But I think professional faith healers are a bogus bunch.
Man I fell into those healers sometimes back my University's day but I always have at the back of my mind that the bigger the congregations the bigger they get paid for lying in the Name of Jesus...Excellent exposure..Need world wide publicities and political will to stop this tiradind fraud...Doc
i love this one is so true and bring out the truth of faith healing miracles. my mother is blind when she was young some one brought her to one of these faith healers all it did was scare the crap outta her and guess what she;s still blind.... she and her family wouldn't change her... she is the best mother of 2 any one could have i feel lucky.
i wonder what the limits of placebo healing are.. has there been much research on that? seems like more people would be complaining if all the supposed healed werent actually healed.. but then i am sure there are a lot of plants presenting themselves as honest patients to be healed..
A whole lot of fun! Hard time to refrain laughing.
Best hoaxes in centuries. And most of these faith healers were cought and condemned at one time. Still, peoples go back :-)
No where else on planet earth this works as much as that.
It ought to be that the population like that sort of show. Scams, gimmick or not, the audience is "Faithfull" :-) They don't get much audience elsewhere on planet earth, but money isn't elsewhere.
But in the end, the ones who died as collateral victims like this teengirl who's father held back the medidicins, isn't that causing death like driving "Under an Influcence"?
One thing for sure is that many of these faith healer gets political leaders in power through the money they get from parents who slaughther their child for a hoaxer.
A real good docu. Once anybody seen this docu, all the other ones become irrelevant since they have the same motive behind.
Give to God, with which I have a "Special" relation. Seen in hoaxes planed by Greaks much before J.C. (Here, I think in the religees docus.
-God's "Elected" peoples to be the first ones to be damned.
Pierre.
I believe the term is 'charas-ma-tic'.
Have you ever looked up the word
'discern-ment' in Hebrew?
Can you smell it?
Here is a 'new word' -
'charasmatic reiteration'...
Emotions my friend, emotions...
Lamed: You should edit your post so we know to whom you're replying. It makes very little sense otherwise.
Jesus is a healer
Ignoramus!
Do you mean Jesus "was" a healer? He is no longer here on earth. In fact, He sent the Holy Spirit because as He told His disciples, He is now seated at the right hand of the Father. People healed in His name at the beginning of the Church when God's power was needed to demonstrate that Jesus was indeed His Son. But those miracles - the frequency and quantity - decreased exponentially by the time the second generation of Christians were writing letters to each other. The Holy Church Fathers who wrote to different Churches with instructions after Paul and the apostle John were no longer on earth were clear that speaking in tongues and healings were gifts given to establish the Church, not maintain it. If Jesus is indeed a healer, you must deal with the moral issue of the 99% of human beings who beg God for relief from excruciating pain and illness and receive only silence. If you are comfortable with this fact, wait until it is you begging for healing and nothing happens. Then we will talk.
You do know your history which is more than I can say for many of those who post here.
Miss: You write like you're still part of the faith. You state church history as if you believe it such as Jesus healings. Wow, you amaze me.
Do you feel like that God at one time or another didn't meet your need when you were begging for healing or someone you love? It that seed of your vitrol? I don't like your ways and desire to destroy sincere faith in God from the inside out, but my pity for you is growing if such was the case.
Charles B.
Note to all: "Deleted" posts just go to "guest" and then you can't even access them any more. Not a very useful function after all!
Very good - and Kudos for Derren for being respectful towards true Christians rather than using this documentary to tar everyone with the same brush. Recommended viewing for anyone who has a friend or relative taken in by the likes of Benny Hinn.
I had a miracle healing from disabling back pain because of one of these healers. I didn't attribute it to the healer or my faith but in something that is beyond understanding.
Many thanks to Derren & all those involved to bring about this exposing film! I do wish that the PR man would have worked out b/c I think you would have had many more people, but thru this video, an untold number of people are reached! Many years ago, I was desperate to see my son healed of his pains in his body & he was desperate too so we went to this "faith healer" & when I saw him doing that trick on my son, I was so disgusted & embarassed & I felt so bad for my son. We DID NOT GIVE THIS MAN ANY MONEY! It was a good lesson; all it takes is one desperate situation, especially where one has pain, to make one vulnerable. But thanks be to the Lord for He uses all things to teach us & is able to deliver us if we look to HIM. Bless His pure & good & holy Name!
Derren should investigate a nigerian healer(amongst others)called TB Joshua.To me he seems authentic but, these muthaf....s are so good,they'd fool almost anybody.Money is involved as usual.I must give this guy the credit though;there are proofs he doesn't heal only the rich,but mainly the poor pple who cannot afford private hospital bills.
There is no such thing as an authentic healer.
If you believe in faith healers then you might as well believe the world is flat because you're disrespecting science and relying on superstition and intuition.
a really good documentary....loved it
Great Documentary.. I am a Strong Bible believer.. and remain to be since I was the age 13.. I am now 35.. I am no fanatic.. as some would say.. but I am greatful for well respected documentaries like these.. all that is in darkness shall come to light.. it's sad to see money is still the root of evil. It sabotages peoples faith in God. This documentary can do two things.. it can either turn you away or make you stronger.
good documentary, too bad they couldn´t gather a larger audience.
Hail lord satan...he shall rain fire on you imbeciles....666
grow up. satan is just as ridiculous as any god belief.
I'm so disappointed, I'm unable to watch it as Channel 4 has blocked it in my country. Is there anything I can do to see this?
This is a good documentary but we must also know that there are genuine faith healings. I like the confidence and the way 'Collins' conducted himself to make the project a success.
There has never been one scientifically-proven case of a faith healing. So what we must know is that all faith healers are phoney.
And I have seen people tasting two sets of beans that they are told are 1 heinz and 2 Tesco many many people said they could definitely notice a difference between them and went on to explain why they much preferred one over the other. Only one person came to the correct conclusion - 1 & 2 were exactly the same because they were from the same tin !
So that also explains how you get 'genuine' faith healing - the placebo effect is well documented.
My nan did faith healing - never for money or any gain and I think she did help people - that doesn't mean it was by any divine intervention. I even received benefit from it once when I was young. Her laying on of hands (no God speak) sent my tummy ache away.
However I am positive, it was her loving care and attention that she gave to me that made me feel better NOT divine intervention. We all know a dr with a good 'bedside' manner makes us feel better than some grouch that and rushes us thro doesn't take time to listen.
So not hard to see why believers who are under pressure to feel a benefit, do feel something even if it is temporary.
Why is it that all the "healings" that occur happen to be afflictions that can't readily be seen? Why do you never see someone with an amputated arm or leg grow a new one in front of your eyes? There's no such thing as faith healing. Karen is right, it's all in people's minds.
Why is it that all the "healings" that occur happen to be for afflictions that can't readily be seen? Why do you never see someone with an amputated arm or leg grow a new one in front of your eyes? There's no such thing as faith healing.
NO, there are no genuine faith healings. Being healed from a placebo effect (demonstrated time and time again by giving a patient a sugar pill, telling them with confidence that it will heal them, and their belief in the pill's effectiveness produces remission of symptoms that may have been caused by psychological reasons) is not a direct healing from God - is it a person being manipulated into believing they are well.
Missy: It's too late to dissuade people like me, as I've seen long-term doctor varified miraculous healings with my own eyes. Hearts, cancer, asthma are just three. I predict as times grow worse and worse, greater and greater miracles will become more and more common. For ever fake out there, there are more that are truly used of God in this way.
These are exciting days to live in, are they not?
Once again, why should we take your word for anything? Produce the medical records.
If I were back in the U.S.A. I'd ask my mother for her medical records, Sister Greene for her records of healing from cancer, and heard disease, and Fayrene's records for healing of cancer. Until then, you've lost my respect for calling me a liar already. Even if I posted them on-line would you believe me then? I think not. In fact, I've got an idea . . . why don't you visit a church in your city, and ASK if anyone's been healed miraculously there. See if they can provide your medical records. If not, try another church. You won't go far until you find some. But I'm convinced that as God moves more and more in these last days, divine healings will start to become more common place, even in a neighborhood near you!
When a scientist makes a statement, he backs it up with evidence. On the other hand, you expect to be believed out of hand and when asked for evidence, respond with cop-outs--and still expect to be believed--and take umbrage if you are not.
I can certainly live without the respect of someone as empty and inferior as you.
I do not doubt that if people such as the ones in this documentary forgot their own names, fell on the ground in fits, and responded like completely idiots simply because they were told a complete novice was an actual hypnotist, that the human capacity to heal itself can come about by meditation and positive thinking. In fact, they have proven that concentrating on white blood cells attacking enemy cells has value. We can aid in our own healing, and help others in their healing by teaching them the value of imagining positive outcomes. The mind is powerful and our bodies are self-healing mechanisms. A wonder to behold. These indeed appear miraculous.
While it may be wrong for people to manipulate healings, it is also just as wrong for people to manipulate people against healings.
The problem with disbelieving in faith healers is that it also denies the healing by faith, which Jesus commanded those who believe in Him to do.
It was Jesus who said "They shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover". Sure, there are hucksters within Christianity as well as every other religion. But when you deny the very Bible verses that are commanded for "these signs shall follow them that believe", then you have to walk away from the very ministry and message of Jesus Christ. It is wrong to manipulate, and Derren set about to manipulate against faith healing. It is wrong to tell hurting people that they must suffer, when the very Bible tells them there is hope and help.Jesus would never have done that.
You've obviously never studied New Testament history,for if you had, you would realize that everything attributed to Jesus was written about sometime after the events and that there are a number of different versions of events, depending on the political climate of the time and the geographical area involved. In other words, there is little that is definitive about the New Testament. Therefore, neither you nor anyone else knows what Jesus would or would not have done.
The Bible notwithstanding, faith healing and such are as phoney as virgin birth or speaking in tongues.
Furthermore, I resent it when someone of your ignorance tells me and others what is right or wrong. In short, you are as pathetically misled as those who seek out faith healers.
You are not manipulating people by showing them the truth.
No-one know what, if anything, Jesus said on this subject as it was never documented at the time, just loads of conflicting stories many many years after the supposed events.
there's no such thing as healing by faith...ask one of the Billions of people who have prayed on their deathbed and not been saved.
None of it is true.
Kara, Jesus' words were recorded as being spoken to a specific number of people during a specific period of time in a specific place. It is the #1 rule of Biblical interpretation that we do not take verses out of context, or apply words spoken to one person to ourselves. Jesus was speaking in the passages you have referred to about the first apostles, after they received the Holy Spirit and were given special miraculous dispensations to demonstrate the power of God and help to spread Christianity. The Bible does not tell hurting people afflicted with physical and mental illnesses in a fallen world that they will be relieved of suffering. If it did, it would be a book of lies.
An occasional miracle in the early formation of the Church was used to establish credibility and the power of God. If you do a careful reading of the second generation of Christian leaders who came after Paul and the original disciples, you will see that these original gifts ceased. They were no longer needed, as physical signs of healing were now considered inferior to the faith within the hearts of people who possessed the Holy Spirit.
In fact, by picking and choosing snippets of Holy Scripture and using them to justify your point, it is you who have manipulated.
The synoptic gospels were written 50-150 years or so after the fact and differ, often radically, among themselves. So no one has any way of knowing what those words were.
I can't believe that someone of your intelligence (I read one of your later posts) believes that the miracles mentioned in the bible actually happened.
Robert: She's on your side. You missed that one.
I can see that from her response to you and I have changed my post accordingly.
But while I misinterpreted her, I certainly have your number.
And I yours.
Robert I actually don't know what I think about the miracles of the work of Jesus Christ. I have to be honest - I haven't done any study about them, and grew up believing they were literal miracles, just as the entire earth was covered by a massive flood and that God plopped Adam and Eve in a garden and we all descended from them. (Cain's wife was always a mystery - where did she come from?). When I look at cause and effect, the effect Jesus had on people led them to martyr themselves - be crucified upside down, torn to bits by lions, (although not in the high number Christians would have us believe) - submit to torture rather than renounce His deity. However, Mohammed had the same cause and effect, as did the Buddha or Joseph Smith. I have to be truthful when I haven't come to a conclusion about something - believe it or not, I really don't know about the miracles of Jesus. Something He did was pretty damn convincing! It's taken me long enough just to study the Old Testament and be "deprogrammed" from a literal reading and interpretation. I haven't reached the New Testament yet! :)
Basically you don't know what to believe, an intelligent answer.
Back in biblical times (and I don't feel that I need to define the term for you) and before, if the teller of a story found himself in a tight spot or needed reinforcement of some idea or concept he was trying to put across, he probably put in a miracle or two for escape or stress.
MissyRuth: I will probably be posting less than I have been, so I just wanted to say now that I will humble myself and appologize for stating you're trying to be deceptive and voicing my opinion that you're a true enemy. If I, for whatever reason, turn from my faith and used my Biblical knowledge and charm and intellect to fight the very things I once held dear, then I too would be an enemy of the Cross, no matter the reason for loosing my faith. That's just a cold hard fact.
I would, however, like to know more about what changed your heart (if you want to expand on that further), but I've gone through the fire just like other people and came out stronger in faith on the other side. This year my baby was mis-diagnosed (my opinion) with TB by two doctors, but to make a long story short, she's fine now and is now completely well. Did we see a doctor? Absolutely. Did we pray? Heavens yes! Horrendous and heartbreaking things happens to us all eventually in some way or form . . . . God knows; God cares; yet will I trust Him in all things no matter the eventual outcome. Regain the faith.
Peace to you as well,
Charles B.
See Charles, that is where you are definitely wrong among other things, is by saying to some one to "regain the faith" it is basically none of your business to tell a person that, for one thing what is there to regain? some obscure visions of some type of invisible deity's that are "only" in the mind, nowhere else at all, except in pictures, words and movies. Absolutely nothing at all tangible and real!
And you keep saying that your god is a he, and that everything revolves around us little almost invisible carbon units in respect to the size and vastness of the cosmos, that are here as long as a neutrino colliding with a hydrogen atom, a flicker, according to the time scale of the universe, being made in the image of your god? that is a grand illusion of mass proportions!
Charles, you and no one has any pipelines to any type of gods, especially any invisible gods of your making.
"I will probably be posting less than I have been . . . " Thank the lord!
Glad I could inspire at least one prayer on your behalf, Robert. It's a start!
I don't think this was handled very well...they seemed to confuse several kinds of frauds: prosperity gospel preachers, big-time televangelist scam artists, and low-level local faith healing quacks. You can't be all things...and if you try, you will smell fishy...He dressed like someone from the prosperity gospel, claimed to be an almost ascetic wanderer, and talked like a televangelist quack. I think they would have had more success if they chose one thing and shaped that more faithfully. Plus, they missed a big thing..these people build relationships and then exploit them. "James" couldn't do that so he didn't get much of a turn-out, but it would have been worth investigating how many of these people attend and give money to the same creeps time and time again. ...In short, it could have been a better and more intriguing documentary than it was. It was a waste of a lot of invested time and money.
I agree with you. Only those who have experience and been in this ministries can relate to the deception and eyes being blinded by thinking that God is endorsing the work of his spirit to this greedy ministers. I have worked for some of this ministers and was also deceived until I came to see the truth of this greedy faith healers and prosperity name it and claim it for 25 years. Amazing how bless to know now the truth now. run from them as fast as you can!!!!
@Epicurus; I just wanted to tell you that I really enjoyed what you wrote in response to CnN earlier. I also wholeheartedly agree with your estimation of the "hell" topic. I also think that you have come to a good place in your debate on these matters and your arguments have become stronger as a result. These men that fleece the desperate with promises and lies do not deserve some eternal hell. They deserve to have all that which they have gained to be taken from them. As it was fame, wealth and power that inspired them to do these things the absence of those rewards is the ultimate punishment.
cults are exploding in the internet age
as a religious person i think that the message of this documentary is really good. it is not about questioning your religion and your faith but to be more critical of what the churches are doing, because they are human made. god never values us human based on how much money do we spend for the church. the relationship between god and human is direct, simple, personal and humble. not jaguar or diamond earrings.
FFS... people...
I think Derren Brown was the best man to pull off this documentary, he has excellent knowledge in the area of mind manipulation.
I watched the doc on TV and thought it was quite disturbing the lengths some of these people go to to fleece money out of people.
I don't know how a devout Christian would see this though.
I also loved seeing that faith healer that opened for Derren's apprentice get really uncomfortable when all was revealed.
A devout Christian would realize that specific "faith healers" themselves are ultimately not God. Like the "actor pastor" said, "You don't have to give all your money for God to heal you." Keep your eyes and faith on God, ultimately, and not on slick mega "superstar" pastors.
While faith healers are certainly despiccable, are they any different from the Catholic (catholic) Church? Both promise the world; both hold themselves out as emissaries of god.
Only the methods vary--sort of. The faith healer improvises as he goes along; when backed against a wall, the Catholic (catholic) Church wings it with new and improved doctrine a la immaculate conception. The faith healer indulges in supposedly miraculous cures and the Catholic (catholic) Church in indulgences with some miraculous cures thrown in for good measure. The faith healer touts blind faith, the Catholic (catholic) Church papal infallibility. The faith healer decries doctors, the Catholic (catholic) church abortionists.
Both are equally adept at milking a crowd (congregation). And speaking of milking (tax-free style), it's hard to tell which has the biggest bank account--cathedrals don't come cheap and neither do lavish lifestyles.
In the end, who's to blame, the hoi polloi who know no better or the faith healer and the Catholic (catholic) Church who should?
You are right, to a point, about the Catholics. Here in Italy, for instance, they don't pay property tax, and they own a VERY vast amount of extremely valuable real estate. So it is quite a heavy loss of revenue for the State.
BUT doctrinal "crimes" are not the same as relieving dumb, desperate people of their money via psychological violence and state fair chicanery. At least the Pope isn't telling everyone not to receive medical therapy when needed. Except for when you're a pregnant woman who wants an abortion, but that's another thing entirely.
Thank you for your comment. I have amended my blog accordingly.
Darren Brown does a great job of exposing how so many are deceived by the false prophets!
At least these people feel at one with a higher power by allowing a tax free devil to fleece them of their wealth. Gone are the times of sacrificial burnings, beheading, hangings, drownings, stonings, torture, imprisonment, human sacrificial cannibalism ect.......... to please the gods. Darren brown should have pulled this trick in iran/pakistan or iseral that would have been epic im sure, sorry Darren brown you been scooped Borat did this in texas 10 years ago it was funny then atleast.
I liked the idea A LOT, but do they have to put reality shows everywhere nowadays???
Very interesting doc on the gullibility of a lot of religious people, but I forgot, a person has to be gullible to believe in the religion fairy tales in the first place!
Mr. Razor: For all the "fakes" in the world, there is certainly a genuine move of God to imitate.
Rest assured no evil man or woman who "fleeces" their flocks in any way with faked miracles in the name of God will escape eternal damnation in Hell.
I wouldn't want to trade my eternal prospects for those of that 'pastor" (W. V. Grant) on the end. That was pretty sad; I must admit.
Peace to you.
(LOL) Charles, I was told am sounding repetitious in my responses to the religee's, but then what else could my responses be if the religee's (you) say the same things over and over!! "Give me something new"!!
In my opinion: Hell is a place we create in our head while alive...and all of us visit it even for brief moments now and then. Hell after death? That's a story you read and believe, no one "knows" that. As Achems often write, death will only be known when you are dead.
"IF" death is a mirror reflection of one's life, then believing in hell might be the door to entering it for petty little sins.
az
Every one is gullible at one time or an other in one subject or an other. A huge amount of people are gullible in love relationship or in relation with their kids. Others are gullible towards money and politics or towards advertisment of goods and the need to purchase them.
Look for where you are gullible...i am certain you will find your field and if not perhaps you are gullible in thinking that you are not gullible.
Religion is a balloon attached to a thin string of spirituality which is attached to the hand of a human. When the balloon pops the string is still intact and so is the hand.
Science is a ball we kick towards the future, sometimes it gets lost in the bush...but it sure is the most challenging game to play on earth.
What's in between? A world full of people learning to play with life. No way is a bad way, all ways lead to self discovery...in this reality or the next.
az
Az, not all roads lead to Burger King playland.
to go to Burger King you have to want to go there, but there may be a better place.
Not quite sure what you meant.
Don't you think you could still be spiritual if the bible was proven to be a novel?
This reminds me of the book A Million Little Pieces, the world loved the book until it was proven to be a novel and not a true account of one's life.
If we all agreed that the bible is a novel, imagine how liberating that would be! As i wrote before,not a word was written by Jesus him self...doesn't that make it a novel?
az
All roads lead back to the self, in the end we have only gone in circle towards self realizationship passing *through* the writings and discoveries of others.
az
Sadly, it is not true that no way is a bad way. Such relativism is a nice thought for a Buddhist meditation session or New Age coffee cup, but consider just a few major figures of history who followed a definite "bad way" - bad as defined by learning to "play with life" and having it end up trampling over the rights and lives of others. None of us is an island. There is objectivity to a certain extent when we look at belief systems, because all ways do not exist simply for self-discovery, "ways" are defined more accurately as being world-views, which bleed into action toward others and at times, action that infringes on the right of OTHERS right to "play with life."
Mr. Razor: I'm intensely ashamed of the actions of some "Christians" that would fake healings, etc. just to steal money from people. I'm quite sure many do, but not all. I wish I had the money and the time to travel the world and investigate the claims of true miracles. I have to be honest and say that docs like "The Finger of God" which I suggested to Vlatko also is woefully easy to criticize for lack of scholarship, etc. I wish I could make my own documentary with the faith of a True Blue, but with the intelligence of a true scholar as well. I was very discouraged last night.
How's that for differnt?
Az, I'm serious about Hell. If there is no hell except in your mind, then the utterly revolting evil "pastor" I saw on the end of this documentary talking about the new cadallac, new jag and new diamond ring and the new HUSBAND for the woman he prophesied over will have no punishment for such vile evil----infering he had something to do with all those "blessings". I believe to the core of my being there is both a Heaven and a Hell that are litteral. Death is the great equalizer of God.
Well you tried to make it different at least, but still the same kind of stuff, literal heaven and hell? for you, and of course my response will be, there is no heaven and hell!
Don't forget we have an audience now, have to give them something dramatic Charles, to feed their prurient interest!
Razor: That made me laugh! I hope I never have a 100% about face, so I can't be totally different from who I am at heart. At times I've questioned God, like I did last night, and truly asked the question "Is it all a sham?" but I keep coming back to the same place-------at the foot of the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ.
When Jesus said some things that offeneded many people of His day and they stopped following Him, He asked the diciples if they were planning to leave also. They told Him, "Where would we go? Only you have the words of life." That's how I feel.
If I'm angry or upset or don't understand God's why? Where else could I go? The alternative (atheism) is unthinkably void of all meaning and value of life for me. I would have to be in utter dispair and having a total collapse of all I am to go there.
Az's philosophy just sounds lukewarm and meaningless to me.
There's no place for me except for where I am now---in a state of faith and grace.
So you would sacrifice your intellectual integrity just to remain soothed by fairy tales? There are plenty of places to go when you let go of the Christian and ancient Hebrew versions of God. Don't be afraid of them. Atheism is not the automatic alternative either - what about not knowing or wondering or having the moral courage and strength it takes to stand up to a God who is described in the Old Testament as a murderer. He slaughters entire people groups for disobeying Him; His morality is questionable in the way His Mosaic Law deals with women, He orders rape victims to marry the man who raped them. He tells people who received too much of one sort of hormone in the womb that it is an abomination to be gay.
I predict you are going to come into a very real crisis of your faith as you mature and see the suffering in this life that goes on without any relief or intervention by God. Think of the Holocaust, and without making a statement that involves God's Sovereign punishment of the Jews for forsaking Him (as I've heard some Christians explain it away), ask yourself where there is a place for a higher authority who is moral and cares about humanity? I also encourage you for one month to pray only to a carton of milk. You will find that your answers of "yes" "no" or "wait" are exactly the same as if you were praying to an invisible deity.
Listen. You must be committed to TRUTH. Not what you have been taught. Or dogma. If you were born in India, or China, or Saudi Arabia, your religion would not have been Christianity as a rule. You have been taught a way of looking at the world that is comforting and provides answers to many problems human beings have - justice for the wicked in the afterlife, seeing our loved ones again, a caring and powerful God who can help us out and protect us (although He doesn't - you'll find that out too). It explains via MYTH where we come from and why we all speak different languages. Genetics have now proven there was no Adam and Eve from whom we all descended. Christianity Today even published an article recently about what it means for people who literally interpret the Bible - OOPS. Maybe evolution IS a more plausible answer.
If the Emperor has no clothes, and you start to suspect it, you will be confused and outcast and it will hurt when you take a stand and speak out, but it will be YOU who has truth and morality and courage. Then you learn that love is the answer - it always has been - and you find your meaning in life and your support from other people and within yourself. And have you ever heard of the Unitarian Church? There are many options for you out there other than Christianity.
MissyRuth: Surely you are misnamed for you certainly are no woman of faith! That was some of the most thinly veiled diabolical philosophy I've ever read since I've been watching docs and posting on this tread. We are true enemies in thought, philosophy and spirit, you and I. You have my sincere pity.
And you have my sincere disgust. To call MissyRuth a woman of no faith is a complement, whether you know or it or not. If she is espousing a thinly veiled (note spelling) diabolical philosophy, more power to her, for what she writes is of far more intelligence than anything that you've put across.
Charles, I also am a man of no faith, concerning the invisible gods that is, do you feel the same about me, Hmm?
A man of no faith concerning the invisible gods, so what are you a man of faith towards?
az
Razor, no I don't view you as an "enemy" like I do MissyRuth. In fact, I really like nearly everyone here (Az, Iz, you, Epic, Vlatko, etc.) There is a difference that's hard to place into words. You would like to see religion crumble, but she would like to see it rot from the inside out. Every word she speaks is a poison to any sincere soul that wants to make Heaven their home. She and I are true enemies in every way.
And every word you write is a defense of ignorance and superstition.
I don't care if religion crumbles or rots from the inside out, as long as there is no more of it.
Charles, a lot of nerve you've got calling common-sense and humanity diabolical, along with the arrogance of extending your pity to her, because of where you are so certain she will end up for flying in the face of your god with such a pristine alloy of evil. From my point of view, you appear exactly like a man who stares at himself in the mirror and calls his ears horns, his eyes flames, and his mouth by nature or original sin capable of nothing but vomit from from the lowest bowels of h*ll. You stare at the truth, and see instead what you've been told you'd better see, or else. People keep trying to bust that mirror for you, so that at last you may know what beauty there is on the other side of it, and how broad and fair and full of promise the world really is. But you think the natural state of us all should be to grovel in shame over our reflection and to accept a life of servitude, on penalty of eternal fire over the sin of having been born a flawed, natural human being. And for that, you have my pity, in turn, for your failure of imagination, your lack of courage to do so much as even peep around the corner of the mirror, and, most of all, your supreme assumption of faith that all who do not submit as you do are forever d*mned by what you call love itself.
They're NOT RIGHT, Charles, the Pentecostals who raised us... They are absolutely full to the brim with vile hatred for people, paralyzing fear instead of exhilaration over the vastness of human experience, self-loathing dressed up as the armor of love, and child abuse labelled as the loving arms of mother, which none but a devil would circumvent. They think they are headed for a home on high, but their feet are held more firmly to the earth than anyone else's, though they are incapable of seeing it, stuck fast in the mix they've made, unable to move, unwilling to change, and so, in the end, history itself will wash them under the waters to drown on the doctrines they've taken for sustenance.
Wow, you're calling black white, and white black here, Pysmythe.
Peace to you.
Black and white? Rather, this tidbit:
"Grey is all theory," Charles, "but the golden Tree of Life is green!"
Diabolical? You pity me? You label me instantly as your enemy? If I found you beaten by the side of the road, I certainly would care for you. Who then, is your neighbor, my dear? These are the words of a Christ follower? There was nothing "thinly" veiled at all about my post. I am an atheist who studied theology for my undergraduate degree. What is thinly veiled is your anger and condescension. Tsk, tsk, C_and_N. Your words are speaking louder than you know. You come on here talking about Jesus, Jesus, Jesus and faith healing and God's mighty works, and then you react to someone with a different point of view but also created in the image of God with hatred and vitriol. Let me remind you of something. A Bible verse.
"If I speak in human or angelic tongues, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing."
Your insults and unloving response are part of the reason I left the faith. Christians like you are the finest argument for atheism. And believe me, you are no Christian. You are a believer in an intellectual world view and philosophy. The heart of Christ is not in you. Your words reveal the decay within.
Are you really an atheist? I don't think even Dr. Dawkins is really an atheist. He and others like him merely state that they have not seen enough evidence to make them believe that there is a supreme being. This is quite different from stating that there is no god. Of course, such a subtlety is lost about the likes of C_and_N.
That's symantics only.
As I expected, you failed to understand the subtlety. Well, if you can't engage in any serious thinking, at least learn to spell.
Robert: You're cruel as well as disrespectful. In school I had horrendous learning difficulties (I was in special ed for years). No, I'm not a very good speller--point acknowledged (unless I take the time to cut and paste everything to e-mail for spellchecking).
I understand perfectly the subtle difference between "not having enough evidence" to believe in a God and saying outrightly there is no God. Stop being so exceedingly personally insulting. He's very much opposed to God, and works very hard in destroying everything related to faith--that's not even a neutral stance. Even you can understand that concept, can't you? It's very simple.
Spare me your maudlin pululations. From everything you've written, it seems that you didn't receive enough special education.
Who do you think you are to call anyone opposed to God? If Dr. Dawkins is opposed to God (and by that you and I mean your god), it is to a deity such as you and others like you have mendaciously conceived for your own ends and a religion which complements this loathsome conception. By working hard to destroy everything related to faith, Dr. Dawkins is doing the "lord's work" and toiling in the "moral vineyards."
You and others like you are the scourge and scum of the modern day earth and deserve all the insults and opproprium you meet with, especially you who attempts to demean individuals such as Dr. Dawkins and Missy_Ruth for their intelligence and ability to reason, qualities which you lack.
You personally are the little boy whose intelligence never grew up.
Wow. Few people stoop that low even on a public forum. You're inhumane to the bone. You call good evil and evil good; a real son of the end times.
"A real son of the end times." Coming from someone who can't tell good from evil, that's a compliment
Robert, there is a reason why Jesus told Thomas the Doubter: "You believe because you have seen, but blessed are those that believe even without seeing." Eventually we'll all see God face to Face, but I'd reather meet Him as one having faith now than as one that was faithless until my dying breath!
No, Jesus was wrong (at least in the probably politicized version that's come down to us). Stupid are those that believe even without seeing.
Missy: If I found you on the side of the road beaten and robbed, I'd help you too. You're point there? When precisely did you become an atheist? Before or after college? Where did you study theology and for what purpose?
If you left the faith when someone of sound faith callenged your idiology, then that's not lack of "love' Missy. Do I feel any love at all from you? Absolutely none. It's good to know that even atheists can be hypocritical. I can't be manipulated that easily.
She's not the deceiver; you are. She doesn't deserve being put down; you do. As a matter of fact, she deserves to be praised for using her mind, for studying, for analyzing--which is more than I can say for you.
Who do you think you are to endeavor to bring her down to your level by offering her the assistance of the ignorant and the pathetic which she needs as much as a drug overdose.
Robert: My opinion is softening towards her. I read her post to you and if she's been disillusioned and is venting, then that is a bit different than how I first perceived her. But, the result is the same--I think her goal is to "de-faith" believers.
Let me ask you, why do you hate me so much? It feels personal.
And the more believers she or anyone else "de-faiths," the better--anything to stamp out the ignorance, superstition, distortions and lies that you and people like you stand, live for and spread. And if you feel that my attack is personal, you're right, it is.
And by the way . . . you say "Surely you are misnamed for you are certainly no woman of faith." Why would I be "misnamed"? The Hebrew meaning of the name Ruth, also my Grandmother's name, is "true friend." Missy means "young girl." The meaning has nothing to do with being a woman of faith. I worry about you. You do not have a full understanding of the Bible or the faith you are hiding behind (or more accurately, are defined by). If you don't mind, may I ask your age?
My mother's name is Ruth--and she is a "true friend" of God. I was reacting to the fact you have my mother's name as the two of you are nothing alike.
I'm 42.
You wouldn't know a friend of god if there were such a thing--besides, according to you, god is so powerful, he doesn't need friends.
We are the same age. O.k. I'm older. LOL! Look, it is obvious I am bitter. And it is because of a deep longing that all that religion teaches - all of the comforts and wonderful aspects - I WANT it to be true, but through everything I have tried, there has only been silence or blatant evidence to contrary that God as described in the Bible is truly caring and active in our world. Who knows. According to Calvin I may just not be one of the chosen - I am unable to believe, even after agonizing pleas to God for help with my unbelief. I feel like I have chased God all of my life and He just isn't there. I don't know where I will end up - seriously, I am just trying to find something that makes sense to my mind as well as my emotions. Many great minds have stumbled when looking at the burden of human suffering around them and throughout history, so my own small mind is in good company, but I can't deny that equally as many good minds have come away from suffering with faith intact. The opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference. I can't remember who said that. But it's clear that I have an emotionally charged anger and sadness and disappointment that God seems so real to the people I have been surrounded by my entire life, but to me . . . He is just . . . silent.
Don't worry about it. There are better things than religion and theology, namely just about everything.
MissRuth: I really misjudged your motives. I sincerely appologize. I've had to work though "God's Love" and the such myself. I never felt "loved" by God until recently (the past 7 or 8 years or so). Mentally I understood the concept, but spiritually I just couldnt' get past my past and move foreward. I had to overcome being molested as a child, etc. like millions of others. God isn't offended by the hard quesitons like we are. Let Him have it! More than once I've told God when I was very disappointed in Him or angry, and not once did the lightening strike. I love Oregon (even the rain). I lived many years in Cottage Grove, so we're statemates in fact! The best I can say is: I'm sorry May you eventually find peace (and do please keep posting).
Charles B.
Well put.
Good going there @MissyRuth: Although I offer no slight to C_and_N (Charles), It will seem that maybe you can cure Charles of his insanity.
But of course that would be a miracle, and one that would not take any invisible gods handiwork. Just common sense.
I have to add good writing!
Well, whatever floats your boat Charles, if what you believe in brings you peace and joy, so be it! It does not matter one iota what anyone believes in, we all go to the same place when we expire, back to "Star Stuff" from whence we came!
CnN...I like that my philosophy feels lukewarm to you. I wouldn't want it to feel burning hot or freezing cold. It makes me realize that your philosophy makes me feel lukewarm sometimes even though rarely. The reason for it may be that we have found a way to relate in good polarity for our own good.
Where we differ is huge and where we synchonise, well we just do!
"To let be or to not let be"! my streched version of The Spear
az
Lukewarm is only a truly good thing when your talking about milk before bed, not a spiritual state! :-)
Blessings as always.
Charles B.
why do you think any crime done on earth is deserving of a life time of punishment? the punishment seem sto outweigh anything anyone in history has ever done.
especially someone like that pastor. do you really think his just reward would be suffering in hell for eternity for the things he did? perhaps he was misguided as a youth, or perhaps he suffers from some form of mental illness he is not fully responsible for.
this is just ONE of many reasons that the idea of hell is disgusting and makes your god immoral.
Epic: That was very nearly "compassionate" of you. Are you just playing the Devil's advocate here? Usually you let the "religies" have it hard, but you let the worst of the worst slide? Hum. Forgive me if I don't fully trust your motives here.
Yet, I barely comprehend eternity, and eternity in Hell does sound so horrendous I can barely grasp it. I like the idea of an eternal Heaven for the just, but eteranl Hell is unfathomable, even for me.
It was a gut reaction to the "pastor" whom I truly believe was using God as a means to cheat and steal from the poor. Even God in the Bible says that damnation will be worse for such "servants". Of course I would wish that all would truly repent, but that doesn't seem to be the case here, or he would change his ways. Like I said, I like my eteranl prospects better than his, but ultimately God alone is the judge, and I submitt to that.
Let me know more of what you were thinking.
Sincerely,
Charles B.
CnN, lukewarm in my book can also mean Peace.
az
lol i think its funny that you are suspicious of my post since it wasnt nearly as harsh as my past posts....
well two things, first I dont feel it is a good use of my time to argue with people on the internet about the existence of a god. i have decided to focus mainly on the science stuff such as evolution since that is what I am in school for and i realize that nothing i say will change anyones mind on god especially someone who believes as strongly as you do. Second, I realize that being rude and harsh will only make the person im trying to speak to, completely ignore me (and rightly so)...before you are able to change anyones mind, they must respect you first.
i also must say i apologize for any mean or hurtful things i have said to you in the past. sincerely.
however my objection to the idea of hell is very real. i have met people who have been so brainwashed with the fear of hell that they are not able to leave their house and get a job. they think almost anything they do will send them to hell. the worst are children who are told hell is real. i just find it one of the meanest forms of psychological abuse and terrorism.
But your response to me was honest and i appreciated it. i also had a knee jerk reaction to that final preacher and hoped nothing but terrible things for him.
what i liked best about this documentary is that it had no intention of making an argument for or against god....atheist or theist, both should appreciate what the people in this doc are doing. its a terrible thing that people will go out there and ask for money for false hope under the guise that it is what god wants from the person...and even worse the people who are told they didnt have enough faith when they werent healed....that is just depressing.
I've moved from "suspicious" to utterly shocked! You're either smokin' and tokin' or you've very nearly found religion. You're far too mellow now! Or this is the beginning of an alien replacement invastion; if I ever become a mellow tollerant atheist in the near furture, then you'll know they've got me too!
But all joking aside, there is a place for some "fear of the Lord" and fear of Hell, but I understand what you're saying about people who are crippled by the fear. That's not mentally healthy; granted.
Peace to you, as always.
Charles B.
Charles, I know that I can never speak for Epicurus and never will, he is one smart cookie. Just talking in general, but maybe reverse psychology a-happening EH?
I know no one will ever consider you a enemy, but you know the saying (keep your enemies closer) thing.
Get them closer and to trust, then hit them with a "double whammy" for any indiscretions, any slips that they cannot back pedal out of.
Just food for thought that came to mind, and of course I may be wrong.
just sayin! (LOL)
And...what would epi center say of that?
@Achems, While saying you won't talk for an other, you really talk about your self.
az
You better re-read my post, was not talking about myself, I only say it the way it is, no hidden agendas. Never say I believe or agree to any of the fairy tales that religion has to offer.
I've got myself in a squezze on this one. Haven't been clear! I thought you were describing Epicurus's way of approaching a debate where i felt your description fitted you more than him. Although he seem to follow a similar philosophy as you, he differs greatly in the way he expresses it.
It actually had nothing to do with CnN.
Sorry for intruding, it wasn't my place.
az
What i meant is:
You say to CnN: I know no one will ever consider you a enemy, but you know the saying (keep your enemies closer) thing.
Get them closer and to trust, then hit them with a "double whammy" for any indiscretions, any slips that they cannot back pedal out of.
Just food for thought that came to mind, and of course I may be wrong.
just sayin! (LOL)
It reminds me of the way you go about. LOL included
az
@Azilda:
To whom do you think I go about this myself? Charles is the only religious I have a long running conversation with. We disagree mostly 99% of the time concerning religion. He never falters on his religious beliefs. As I do not falter on my non-religious beliefs. So I have no idea at what you are trying to get at.
Hi Guys! Been gone for a few days (internet problems, and just a busy boy). I teach online so I just hate to spend extra time on this stupid machine when I have other options like gardening, etc. Yeah, I think Epic is just being sneaky in an Epic kinda way. But I've always liked his posts too--hard to answer sometimes. Wish he was a "religie" as he's very smart.
Az: :-) Peace to you!
Charles B.
Not about faith or religion. It shows how easy it is to create a faith healer and how they take peoples money. Amazing to see the simple techniques they use and the illusion. Save your money on faith and go to a magic show
Great show
Boy, that was mean.
Great show! Derren is a genious.
An excellent doc with Derren Brown that exposes these charlatans for the fraudsters that they really are. What these people do is nothing less than criminal, all they do is swindle gullible people out of their hard earned money.