Caesar's Messiah
Let's just go back to the drawing board, leave aside all of the assumptions of Christian history, look at the texts afresh, consider every possibility, and open the whole game up. By doing that we'll see that Christianity is really paganism by a different name.
Some of the Bible scholars are mavericks working outside the restrictions of mainstream religious institutions. This allows them the freedom to provide fresh insights and draw some startling conclusions about how Christianity was formed.
And for Joseph Atwill the key lies in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the only Jewish literature ever discovered from the first century AD or CE... the time Jesus would have been preaching among the Jews. The characters in the Dead Sea Scrolls were militaristic and you can see that this movement wanted to push the foreigners out of Israel; they were fundamentalists, whereas the characters of the Gospels are different.
They're pacifistic, they're turning the other cheek, they're giving the Caesar what is Caesar's. How did a movement like Christianity come to exist in a region that was occupied by Roman soldiers and had Jewish zealots within it that were going to push these Romans out? How was that possible?
Joseph began studying the other two major works of that era, The 'New testament' and the 'Wars of the Jews' by Josephus, a Roman court historian who described the war between the Romans and the Jews in the first century. While reading these works side by side he noticed an amazing connection between them.
Certain events from the ministry of Jesus seem to closely parallel episodes from the military campaign of Titus Flavius. A campaign which took place forty years after Jesus supposedly lived. Joseph's efforts to understand these connections led him to an incredible discovery. Christianity had been invented by a little known family of Roman Caesars, the Flavians, and they left us documents to prove it.
Directed by: Fritz Heede
I probably shouldn't comment, being that I haven't seen the documentary, read the book, or any of the comments, but I am going to guess that no one even brought up the subject of transformation, religious experience, or anything of a simular sort. People seem to think that if you can't see it, if it doesn't walk and talk, then it doesn't exist. What do you do when you pray? You close your eyes don't you? What about meditation? There were a lot of early christianities going around in the first couple of centuries that we would now call the Gnostics, they would tell their orthodox brothers and sister's that what they believed to be litterally true was only a myth, and by myth they where implying an internal experience that could only be expressed through myth, poetry and the like. They were also considered the Great myth makers cause they would rewrite alternate versions of genesis and so on. I'm not saying everything about christianity was a myth, just the important stuff is. And I'm sure if they where questioned about the historical accuracy of their writings they would probably tell you "We're not historians, we're theologians". And you can see why they rejected the image of Jahova also, because they new a God would have to be a loving God, but Jahova is still in their pantheon represented as a demiurge, which makes sence to me cause we can be dicks also, implying that the further God is away from his own unity the more of a dick he is, but I don't want to write any spoilers, that would ruin a good myth. Anyway they had three classifications of people, basically a three-fold personality typology. Hylics, Pychics, and Pnuematics. The Hylics were those most absorbed in materiality , the Psychics where those people of the mind, the believers and idealists, and the Pneumatics were the spiritual ones, so they would criticize their orthodox brothers and sisters and tell them that believing is not enough for salvation. They had to have a spiritual transformation for any real progression outside of their basic moral teachings. And it clearly pissed Paul off! Damn this is long! Read "The Jesus Mysteries" by Timothy Freke, if you are into Christianity and don't want to start a new religion like Buddhism. Its free online. Add PDF in the search. I would not suggest reading a book called "Christianity: The Devil's Greatest Trick" by Adam Weishaupt, unless you need further convincing. See you on the other side, Me F&AM Randy. And stop falling for the same mind control technique called "Demonizing the Enemy ", it makes people look stupid! p.s. itys.
Atwill says that the Romans created Christianity to pacify the rebellious Jews. But he cannot see that if they had wanted to do so, the easiest story to write was a sugar-coated version of the Jewish Revolt. And that is exactly what Josephus Flavius wrote. And as it happens, the leader of the Jewish Revolt was called King Izas Manu of Edessa and Judaea - who was King Jesus Em Manuel of Judaea, the biblical Jesus. And both of these kings wore a wore a ceremonial Crown of Thorns.
But King Izas Manu lost this war with Rome and was crucified (but may have survived). This is all taken from real history. So yes, the secular account of this war (Jewish War) and fictional account of this war (gospels) were both written by Saul-Josephus. They were both created as Roman propaganda - to tame the rebellious East. See “Cleopatra to Christ" or "Jesus, King of Edessa" for an explanation. (Ralph Ellis first wrote this back in 1997, long before Atwill)
In addition, Ellis goes on to claim that Saul was Josephus. Thus the conflated Saul-Josephus was proselytizing his new "Simple Judaism for Gentiles" way back in AD55. And it was Saul-Josephus' Simple Judaism that became Christianity. So yes, a proto-Christianity did exist back in the AD 60s.
written by josephus
The Antiquities contains two famous references to Jesus Christ: the one in Book XX calls him the “so-called Christ.” The implication in the passage in Book XVIII of Christ’s divinity could not have come from Josephus and undoubtedly represents the tampering (if not invention) of a later Christian copyist.
The nag hammad texts make much more sence of jesus as a living being who in a more spiritual sence had gained enlightenment and totally also in an allegorical sence that you have to di...the ego has to die to be enlightened. I have no problem with the bible being both literal and allegorical.... the people in this documentary seem to start with the idea that he was not real and work to proveit from there. There is no doubt that christianity was usurped by the romans and the more powerful spiritual gospels were sentenced as heretical.
Great book, no matter what! And if you want more evidence to corroborate the Flavian religion theory, go ahead and read the Kairologic blogspot article "
Ananias, The Double Agent with Intent to Martyr the Apostle Paul and Undermine Messianic Judaism." You won't be disappointed, but you may be surprised - the clues in this case don't even require Josephus' "Wars of the Jews" to be made apparent.
I found this documentary most enjoyable, not sure how much of the information is fully accurate but it certainly gave me a new viewing angle on the Christ Mythos.
I found the last ten minutes or so to be the most interesting part, though to conclude that Christianity is an invention, is in my opinion quite a bit of an oversimplification. First of all, Christianity is not a uniform religion, even if only Roman Christianity is meant, it is not so. And it is not the same now as it was back then. There's an evolution.
I will not deny that the Flavians created some kind of religion. They, or the intellectuals working for them, mostly writing in Greek, an elitist tendency of the epoch, 'simply' gathered and manipulated material from diverse sources. Like good postmodernist of their time (heh, that reminds me of Lyotard's boutade, post modernism is what comes before modernism)
To the advantage of the Flavians, but clearly they propagated something that grew beyond their control. How many Christians are there today that worship Flavius? It grew out of their control because, i believe , of the use of powerful archetypes that have their validity or valuable aspects even today.
Archetypes that were initially intended for personal growth, as the documentary mentions.
I' d like to make it clear i'm not advocating for Christianity, it can be used to 'control' or influence you. That's the same for any religion. Or non- religion.
alright, it seems this theory is already debunked
Great History Lesson!!! I do not follow a god, a christ, or a belief... the history is there, exposing the truth. Understand, you can still have your faith and love for the church. BUT the church, in my opinion, has no place in a reality based society. I do not explain things with supernatural notions, therefore I should not have to listen to/ abide by a christian concept in my life or community. A foundation based on murder, greed, control of the masses, and bowing to something that doesn't exist, in my belief... I realize many follow this concept and glad they find hope in such a quest but don't judge or control my life with what you call christian values. I have faith that mankind knows right from wrong, god or no god.
A good documentary... I've read D.M. Murdock's book "The Christ Conspiracy" so the whole doc was just a refresher of previous info though I read her book about 10 years ago and I had almost forgotten about the Flavian connection.
She is hardly an authority on this subject.
Her book is full of errors and made up analogies with no evidence to prove her conclusions.
And your credentials please? She has credentials in anthropology and experience on archaeological digs in both Greece and the US. I don't agree with all of her conclusions but she is spot on concerning evidence for proof of Jesus, in that there is none. And I will say that Joseph Atwills idea look nice but some of it is weak. I'm not completely on board but it has more credibility than the Christian story.
My credentials are not in question here for I am not on camera or in print declaring a truth of non-existence.
She has no area of expertise in sacred texts and the NT which most of our indications that Jesus did exist come from.
If you do not like the NT as a source, then you can go into the Nag Hamadi scriptures as well as the known information about the Ebionites(our earliest source for Jesus that is known)
"My credentials are not in question here for I am not on camera or in print declaring a truth of non-existence."
but you are on here declaring that she is wrong(and you are right). So he wanted to know what credentials you have that make you more authoritative on the subject than her? which you neatly sidestepped without answering. Also how do you know she has done no research into the NT or the NHS? Plus writings/books about someone isn't proof of their existence, especially since they were written in a time before the concept of fiction was invented and when legends and fantastical stories were assumed to be true.
I am saying she is not an expert in this field and she has many errors in her writing of the Christ Conspiracy.
Experts should stay in their field of study if they wish to be taken seriously in the scholarly world.
She is entitltled to her educated opinion, the same as you and I.
She is also an atheist.
I only watched about 30 minutes or so of the film, but I did not see during this time anyone interviewed with the opposing view(actual scholars of this subject) to counter these arguments.
Seems to me, that this would be a rather important ingredient if you truly wish to drive home your case of Jesus not existing.
You have taken a stand against fact based arguments. You traditionalists have no evidence and that includes the NT. And please keep in mind that the New Testament wasn't written until 200 years after the alleged events in question, perhaps at the same time as the Nag Hamadi texts. That is a problem for your position. If you have links, citations and sources then please share. Until then your argument is one of faith and not evidence. In your faith it is good, but in research and science then faith based "evidence" is not good enough. The Nag Hamadi texts are Gnostic and not accepted by the Roman Church, the Eastern Orthodox, the Anglican Church or even the Evangelicals. Nag Hamadi is GNOSTIC. Gospel of Phillip? Gospel of Thomas? I heard they even suggest there is a Gospel of Mary Magdalene!!! These Gospels just gives more strength to a system that was manufactured by early followers to create a religion. I still think Joseph Atwill is reaching a bit too much, but not as much as you are. But I am going to step off and let the sleeping dog lie...
Who's facts?
Much of the work cited in this documentary is information that came to light at the beginning of the 20th century.
This just sounds new and fantastic.
The Bible is a very human book by all accounts and chok full of errors and misrepresentations.
If you are atheist, you are going to want to believe in what is said and if you are Christian, then you will defend what you see as lies and fabrications.
I am neither, but I have seen enough(in readings) to actually believe that Jesus did exist( not the one portrayed in the Bible).
Yes, I do believe the Christian faith is full of lies and deceptions but I still believe in God.
You do not have to have science concur a belief.
You can not see the air we breathe, but we know it is there and we know the effects of having it.
It is the same with man's spirituality and his relationship to a divine creator.
You're whole world view is based on a 2000 year old fable which was created with the intent of enslaving people.
If I were you I'd panic like a motherf*cker.
This is not my belief.
I just believe that Jesus did exist and he was a prophet.
Now.....why would this make me panic??
Is that so? Because when I scroll further down this page and read some of your comments it sure does sound like your beliefs and the "good ol' book" are very much in harmony.
Where did I quote scripture?
The Bible is avery human book and much of it is forged and fabricated.
I do believe that their is some truth in there about Jesus though.
I do not believe he is the son of God.
Religion brings peace and comfort to a lot of people which is a good thing I guess but keep it to yourself and leave me and my family alone. I like data and factual information. Some like make believe. To each their own. I really enjoyed this documentary and learned a lot.
"I like data and factual information" If you like factual information then try and forget you ever watched this. I won't bother with a link as I already put one up earlier in reply to the first comment on this thread, however there's an even better link provided by a_no_n, just google 'Richard Carrier Atwill's Cranked-up Jesus'.
There is also a compelling work by Dennis MacDonald (The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark) that makes the case that the gospels are modeled after the Odyssey. What's fascinating is that at a time when more people are finding that an internal critique of Christianity exposes its incoherence, we are also finding the very sources of this mythology.
Pretzel logic baked in a vacuum. The term "scholarship" is used loosely... the themes are regurgitated "pop-(a)theology"... and the "agenda" is self-evident and explicit. Religion is used broadly as a straw man, and there is no effort to represent true scholarship from within the ranks of modern Christology or even the historical philosophers/mystics of the church (e.g., St. Thomas Aquinas et al).
There are many representations of "proper discussion" on these topics online (youtube) and elsewhere churning theism/atheism based on the Abrahamic tradition, culminating in the testament of Jesus. Fortunately "we" have the likes of John Lennox (Prof Mathematics and Philosophy of Science @ Oxford), White (Prof. Greek, Hebrew, systematic theology) and others well prepared to take on the "intelligentsia" of atheism as represented by Dawkins, Price, Silverman, Hitchens... The Price/White debate is probably the most directly associated with the content of this documentary - for those interested, a selection of "scholarly debates" on these topics:
James White / Robert Price - Is The Bible True?
James White / David Silverman - Is The New Testament Evil
John Lennox / Richard Dawkins - Has Science Buried God (Oxford Museum of Natural History)
John Lennox / Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion (Alabama)
John Lennox / Michael Shermer - Does God Exist
Christopher Hitchens / William Lane Craig - Does God Exist?
Richard Dawkins vs Cardinal George Pell. From Q and A.
Bart Ehrman does a very good job of proving that Jesus did exist in his book: "Did Jesus Exist".
Ehrman has no bias in Chrisitanity for he once was a devout Chrisitan and now considers himself agnostic due to the progression on life work and education in the NT.
He tells that he is rather amazed that people did not think Jesus existed when the overwhelming majority of NT scholars do all agree that he did exixst.
I think the one thing that many people need to keep in mind about Jesus is, that he certainly was not the soft spoken and meekish messenger of God that people made him out to be.
Yes, the "meek and mild" Jesus has been torn apart as an inappropriate caricature by many including J.B. Phillips in Your God is Too Small (and titles one of his chapters "Meek and Mild"). Also, Gary Wills recent book What Jesus Meant does a great job of "resuscitating" the radical Jesus - opening with the forward titled: Christ Not a Christian.
Funny, this rather "casual" insistence for recital that Jesus did not exist and citing the "scholars" that have demonstrated it. My impression is that not many have meditated on what it would mean to try and "unravel" the very existence of a "personality" that I believe many would argue as the most, or at least among the most, "influential" in human history - even in secular terms. Even Dawkins in the debates listed above, concedes the existence of the historical Jesus...
I agree, Dr. Ehrman is a very good author and speaker, with quite a few interesting things to say about his research. At least the Qu'ran tells us that Mohammad was a war monger and commanded nasty deeds, like the Old Testament of the Bible did about their times. The NT forgot how jealous and vengeful that God supposedly is.
Muhammad is greatly misunderstood in western society as is the Quran.
You have to study Muhammad and the Quran to understand it correctly.
Islam is a threat to Chrisitanity and Christianity rules in the west.
It is difficult to get a fair perspectve of it living in the US or any other westernized nation.
I was lucky to live in Egypt when I was 18 and 19, before the 9/11 thing made it like it is today. That was my first exposure to Islam, and I agree, seeing for yourself is better then a view through someone else's cultural lens. I have read a fair bit (not all of it) of the Qu'ran, and other relating pieces written by non westerners. And talked with numerous Muslims, and visited Mosques over there. In my experience, people are people, there's good and bad, whatever part of the world you're in.
There are passages in the Qu'ran that are very violent, as I said in a post somewhere earlier, I view both the Qu'ran and Bible as products of their times. But to claim those morals and actions from then are commands for ways to live today, in my mind, is ludicrous. Which is what is claimed by the religions though ( I know you didn't, but others do). There is chopping off of heads and hands, raids etc in the Qu'ran, and I agree with you, they're from the times. Others like the earth being spread out flat like a carpet with the mountains as pegs, the heavens like a tent above etc etc. All decent descriptions of how they viewed the world then, but they fail badly on examination now. Especially claims like flying to the moon on a winged horse. Both the Bible and Qu'ran contain contradictions that a perfect being wouldn't allow in their message and rules, and have things wrong like a non-spherical earth for example.
If someone gets some good advice and comfort from them, that's good, but claiming either one is the inerrant word of a perfect being is way more then that, and can't be correct, even on theological grounds (hence all the denominations and sects). Which leads us into the problems religion causes. They are at odds with each other by their own teachings, and always will be.
That's not the way a perfect God would spread his one and only message, his only call to eternal life, our one chance to escape everlasting punishment. It needs to be studied properly or it's 'misunderstood'.
It is consistent with man made BS over time, with some bits of truth and self evident things thrown in to help with the credibility.
The Quran for me is the guide to my faith with God.
But....as a Muslim, I know what parts apply to this day and age.
I also study the bible intently because it is also God's word but in some places it was changed or added to by man.
The Quran corrects what was corrupted by man and is very direct in it's guidence from God.
The problem with Islam is, that many Muslims do not understand their own relgion(same with Christians) and they rely upon militant scholars and clerics that have other aspirations in mind rather than salvation of their followers in scholarly thouhgt.
Muslims outright misinterpet hadith or use unsound hadith to explain the violent existence and a means to their end.
I only adhere to the Quran and the Sunnah(the way of Muhammad) and I diregard almost all haddith or fatwas and figh(islamic law where there is no basis in the Quran).
I also live in America where many Muslims are very different than their counterparts in thinking of the ME.
You seem to be a reasonable and decent bloke, but as you said, many people 'cherry-pick' to make sermons for their own ends, misleading others. You said you know which parts are relevant and which are not, how can you be sure your interpretation is correct? How is anyone supposed to know which parts to take heed and believe in, and which parts to ignore? That's a slippery slope mate.
Because i am blessed to have very good Muslim teachers who have taught me the correct path in Islam and what to avoid in it as well.
I also have a Christian core from my beginning and it easily helps me to spot what is fabricated and not in both relgions.
Remember that I study the Christian religion as well and this helps in dialogue with the Christians.
Aethesists are a different group and tend for the most part, to be the intellects of this world.
They are a difficult group to explain faith to, although I will say that they are more polite and thought provoking than most Christians I have come across on internet discussions.
Study of the Quran is paramont to understanding Islam.
Too many Muslims do not study it and instead listen to ill advised fatwa and unsound haddith as I mentioned before.
David Icke said it best once with Problem-Reaction-Solution.
The solution(or outcome one desires) is already on the table, now it is just a matter of getting to it they needs to be worked out.
Same with Islamic radicals or NWO governemnts.
I can agree with you here.
The doctrines are bent to serve a purpose.
Who's purpose, God's or mans?
Not hard to see that it is more for man than God.
Is it a sin to be homosexual or lesbian??? According to all religious texts, yes.
Is this a sin that will dtermine hell or heaven?
I think that is illogical to think that God would throw someone into hell because they preferred the company of their own sex.
God(in my view) will take a much closer look at how one conducted their life in accordance to what He tells us to do and what we did in kindness to all of his creation while here(not just humans).
God knows we are going to sin time and time again and some sins we will repeat our entire life without correcting them.
But if we correct what we know to be wrong... then He is going to let us know the merit of doing so.
I do not believe hell is a dwelling place forever(perhaps for a slect few).
But the Quran talks of penalties and punishement.
The purpose of penalties and punishment is for breaking the rules or laws..
Some punishment is more enduring due to the severe nature of that transgression.
So is my belief in hell.
There are Muslim scholars who believe this as well.
We could apply what you've said here to the Christian or Jewish bibles too, as in not many people of any of the Abrahamic faiths understand their own religion. It is impossible to follow all the rules and dictates put forth in any one of these books without contradiction.
I find it interesting to look at the disconnect between educated and uneducated followers, especially the clergy. I think most of us have noticed at this stage how the more educated members of the faithful are, the less likely they are to take the words from scriptures as literal and instead try to interpret it in some way that is beneficial to all. I'm not sure how this generalisation holds up with regards to Islam but for Christianity and Judaism it holds in my experience. As much as I loathe the source of their ideology it becomes obvious that there is inherent good in some of these people that can't be dismissed along with their book of fables. Then at the other end of the spectrum you have the knuckledraggers who think that the fossil records were put there by God to test their faith.
Technically the Westboro Baptist Church are preaching the truth from the bible albeit as you would agree in a selective manner but when they spew bile like "God hates fags" they are not extrapolating or fabricating. It seems to me you can look into these books and find whatever you need to justify your behaviour and actions no matter what your motives. That should tell you something.
Religion is the original sin and god is the original scam. Point taken.
That's actually not the point. Though you can take it that way if it pleases you. No problem.
This documentary is the single most absolutely righteous empirical attack on Christianity i have ever seen, heard, or read.
Why is it ALWAYS an "Attack" on christianity when christians have attacked pretty much everything for decades...
i said it was a righteous empirical attack, I mean, I guess its not an aggressive stance but when I was listening, I was pretty shocked by the obvious points. I meant Attack in the sense that it may break down some barriers people have about religion. I guess I never questioned it, but I believed Jesus existed. I guess it was a remnant from my childhood I never really thought about, even being an atheist for 10 years I still never really doubted it. Now hearing it was a fable, and possibly a conspiracy of the ages, I mean--- this is heavyweight stuff.! Why do people dismiss him so easily? Even if every one of his "facts" are wrong, the FACT is that christianity WAS created, and IS a pile of lies. Whether your ascribing it to Roman Conspiracy, sheep-herder wisemen, or what have you. Even if he is wrong about The origin, or if Jesus was manufactured by Romans,, its obvious that the Catholic religion was created as a tool for power and money.
The world is a better place when all the "self-righteous" religions of the world are exposed for what they are. And what they are are the attempts of men to answer questions they cannot comprehend because of a lack of knowledge, or a desire to control others through a fear of eternal damnation. From a moral standpoint most religions have many redeemable qualities.But, almost all preach believe, obey and submit, or burn in a eternal "hell".
SO very tired of it all.......
Good!
There's a corner over there, go cry in it.
You mean that in a good way, don't you?
Why do people so desperately want others to believe what they believe, is affirmation of you own ideologies so important that you'd force others to believe as you do. Some Atheists are as zealous as the Christians they despise and the Christians are just as willing to hurt others to prove their beliefs.
Paganism and Christ? I've come to a conclusion that when someone says the word Zionist they happen to hate God. The one they don't believe in.
How can someone hate god if they don't believe in it....??
easily :D
That was my odd point.
What a pile of deception. An Atheist view of Christ is almost laughable if it were not so utterly sad that they are desolate.
Deception.... TRUTH hurts, is more like it. Anytime anyone has an opinion or theory on the origins of christianity, christians are always on the attack... as usual. Karma's a bitch eh.
It's interesting that the producers of this video are simply saying, "Here is the evidence, you can decide", while Christianity not only asks people to believe with no evidence, but bribes them with heaven and threatens them with hell if they don't.
Call it what you like, but man has always had"faith" in the unknown or in spirits and god(s).
The truth is, that man knows that somewhere, he was created by a divine being, one greater than he and this faith will prevail until man is no more.
Man does not "know" of a divine being in the sense of empirical knowledge, because there is no evidence. Most men have, however, assumed such a thing because of our evolved sense of agency. Fortunately we have also evolved the ability to reason, and this capacity demonstrates that the common conception of a "divine being" is irrational.
Why did God send His only Son? Wasnt it because of Adams original sin?.... Was there a Adam? Christianity depends on the biblical account of the worlds creation. Without Adam and Eve's original sin no need to send a savior. If the worlds human population started with two people then I'm in trouble ( say going to hell). But...I think my Neanderthal buddies got my back.
It is very interesting to me that most people trying to discredit religion are always focusing on Christianity. I never come across an article or doco about Hinduism for example. People go to great lengths to discredit something that is in the end true. People don't seem to acknowledge that the bible is full of prophesies that came true and writings about science facts that we're not proven til thousands of years later by modern science. How does one explain that away?
Jesus was a prophet of God. Same as Noah, Abraham and Moses.
He was truned into God by Paul.
The trinity is never mentioned by Paul in his writings and is later added by Athanasius around 365CE.
I don't agree with the film.
It is an anti-religion athesist bend on a NWO and free mason philosophy.
Pardon me?
Which part would you like me to clarify?
First, the Free Masons are a Christian cult. Second, this film doesn't disparage religion, just the use of religion by authorities to deceive and control. Third, if the NWO is to empower the individual through the use of critical thinking, then it's only a threat to entrenched powers that rely on fear and superstition.
"Christian cult" - ridiculous. Look up Msgr. Jouin 200 yr. history of "mortal battle to the death" with freemasonry - proclamations by Orthodoxy on Freemasonry... Baptist, Lutheran, or pretty much any positional paper by denominations rooted in the reformation. This comment literally demonstrates the "infiltration" of the doctrine of the societies within modern culture. You are more likely to find reference to these sects and interrelated societies from within the church as "synagogue of Satan"...
OK, "Christian Cult" was overstated. Freemasonry is primarily made up of Christians and has cultish aspects.
The issue that many true believers fail to ever acknowledge is the that of mystery. The old mystery schools were the truly persecuted. They were all but severely persecuted by officialdom of Christians, because Christians don't like competition. The old mystery schools were/are often based on we can see, the very natural progression of the life cycle in the nature. For instance passage of a year with the seasons playing a profoundly vital role. We can see and measure that what was once dead fertilizes the earth and then new life propagates and becomes born again. Very simple and it is natural.
That's because Buddhist and Hinduist are peaceful and embrace their religion from within. Many christians are hateful and try to control everything they disagree with... "People go to great lengths to discredit something that is in the end true." What is "truth" to you is bogus to everyone else... Buddhists and Hindus find peace in their faith... "christians" find peace by assimilating everyone and everything around them. There is NO TRUTH to any religion... It exists as a hope and what you like to call faith. It is only as real as your imagination.
how about, poeple try to discredit which they think is untrue. if you want more general bashing try christopher hitchens, he takes on all religions. you not seeing other religions bashed, means you do not look enough. a recomendation to tusk 321, who assasinated ghandi?
Hinduism is largely based on natural cycles just like pre-christian belief. Hence winter solstice is the birth of the sun, not a son. Spring equinox is the renewal of life up from the cold dead ground, hence being crucified and yet reemerging as the living. The solstices and equinoxes both figure heavily in natural "religious" belief structures.and that is pagan, aka the natural cycles of life. Hinduism is more sophisticated in minute detail, but it is also perverted by those in the positions of power. As is Judaism or Taoism or Buddhism etc etc etc. It is heavily layered with local belief and cultural influences.
If you wait long enough everything becomes true. sista please.....
You probably believe in Nostrodomus' prophesies also. Do you?
"Tide comes in, tide goes out ... you can't explain that!!!?!"
Clown.
When are my fellow human will wake up to religious lies? all new religion on earth came from Rome set up for one purpose slavery and mind control.
A precise man. Thank you.
Questions at the start;
1. Although there were others like Jesus, prophets & healers, from round the same time period, Jesus was the one who became popular enough to pi** off the romans enough for them to kill him by him earning the title 'king of the Jews' & gaining popularity.
2. The apostles were the first people to 'spread' christianity round different cities.
3. Most surviving texts were written in Greek because all educated people round the Roman empire wrote Greek from how it was run since before the roman take-over of the empires set up by Alexander the great, which was never changed.
I would like to point out that Christianity wasn't institutionalised until 300ad when Constantine set up the catholic church & that anybody who thinks they are educated towards christianity to read JOB in the old testament if they think christianity is a 'brain-washing' psy-op. It promotes alltruistic values like 'love', 'charity' & less materialism & opposes usury & deceit from 'the un-Godly' for example, shows you that you can totally rebuke these values toward something called 'satanism' if you like there but your supposed to have the strength to resist this because that's how the 'surfs' like us are supposed to find the strength to organise ourselves into a benevolant society!
It has been institutionalised again & christians do get caught up in 'pious', or 'religious' lies by people who like to use the bible to put religious overtones towards political agendas' but this can happen to anybody who allows themselves to get caught up in any similar dialect like this documentary for example.....
Some of the books in the old testament are based on Samarian stories from around 3500bc, but the Greeks & Egyptians for example actually had a few Gods based on some samarian Gods I think, which just goes to show they were a very advanced race!
one small correction. Constantine set up what would be recognised today as the Orthadoxy. Catholicism is the Western offshoot that came into existence due to a schism over the use of iconography.
Raised Catholic, became atheist, then agnostic, "converted" to born again Christianity, none of the above answered my fundamental questions: Who am I? Where am I going? Past all that now (I think) but I'm still looking into Christianity now that I know it is, indeed, a psy-op. What I'd like to see is research into the work of the false apostle, Paul of Tarsus, and how he managed, single-handed, to twist the movement begun by "Jesus" (or whomever) into the political power that became known as the Catholic Church and is now Christianity (whether the sub-cults acknowledge Rome or not, they are just as much puppets of the "Church" as Catholics.) Paul of Tarsus, please, known before as Saul, persecutor of the early "Christians" and barely concealed misogynist.
I'm a tad lost on your reasoning.
To find out some of the answer you're looking for Sha, have a look at the Roman Emperor Constantine the Great. It's quite interesting reading. I admire your courage to follow your own mind, keep thinking and making up your own decisions after you gain the required knowledge. Good luck mate.
You are likely to have a limited view of the fundamental questions you are seeking. You need to read and study the scripture of Islam called the quran to find out the purpose of human existence, where you came from and where you are going to. It also tells you about the personality of Jesus and his teachings. It is also the only scripture that refers to 'Christians' as 'Christians'; which is not even applicable in the bible. I also hope the makers of this documentary will examine Jesus in the light of the Quran in order to have a multi dimensional view of his personality.
Does this quran also have the 72 virgins for those who die in martyrdom? if so do female martyrs get 72 virgins also? And what fun are virgins anyways? However, I do like the concept of being able to relate with one's God outside the church and or without the need of priest and or clergy. As with most religions the Muslim faith has too many sect's fighting among themselves over too much doctrine. God has a name "he" is called nature and he is beautiful .
You are correct about Islam being divided into too many sects.
The view you see in the media would have you believe this is the true problem, but it is not.
Islam is the worlds second largest religion and it is closing in quickly on Christianity.
The Quran is a very direct message toward humanity. Not hard to understand but one must have a general idea of what is written in the Quran is also a historical narrative of the infancy of Islam in Arabia and does not carry over to this day and age.
This is where the normall person gets lost in understanding Islam.
The issue of 72 virgins comes from sources outside the Quran and is a fable, nothing more.
I take it you are Muslim then? I read your posts earlier talking about the human soul. Do you believe humans have a soul? (as distinct to our two soles)
The following is something I came across online, I'd like to hear your thoughts. Firstly, is it accurate in it's scripture claims, and secondly what do you think about it's conclusions if it is?
" Unlike in Vedic scriptures, the Quran does not clearly recognize the SOUL as a distinct entity from the BODY. The soul is often referred as a source of all inclinations and desires (3:61, 12:53). The Arabic word `Nafs' has been translated differently by different translators: as SOUL, MIND, SPIRIT and even as HEART! The word `Nafs' at times refers to the individual (12:53), sometimes to the Soul (6:93, 39:42), and sometimes to God Himself (6:12,54)!. Of particular interest
is verse 21:35 which says "Every soul shall
have a taste of death.... ". This verse could mean:
(i) that the Soul gets a taste of death after separation from the body, as Yousuf Ali interprets or
(ii) that the Individual gets a taste of death
as it is generally implied on most occasions (3:61, 51:21).
Those who are of the opinion that `Nafs' in 21:35 only mean the real Soul would then have to consider this verse as another contradiction to verses 39:42 and 89:27-30 which imply that the Soul is taken back by Allah, momentarily during sleep and decisively at death. Does it mean that the Soul has no death?"
Nafs are usually referrred to as "the self ego" and the struggle against this world and purification from it in the way of getting closer to God and further away from this world.
The Quran tells of how the soul is either gently removed from our body or violently ripped out.
Dpending upon the life you led while alive, the time in the grave is either passed in ease and comfort or it can feel as a suffocating experience and uncomfortable pending your judgement.
Muslims believe that humans are asked three things by an angel that visits them in the grave.
1) What is your religion?
2) Who is your(appointed) prophet.?
3) Who is your God?
This answear, as well as the way your life was led, determines youir experience in the grave.
There is no concept of time once we die and God tells us that this time will be like being asleep(when we are unaware of time)for not more than a day and then the day will be upon us for Judgement.
Ok, the same basic idea as the Egyptian God Anubis and the weighing of the heart.
Don't you find it weird that they'd go to the trouble of saying how you'll feel during your wait, but then also say it will be like being asleep and time isn't a factor, it'll seem like no time at all? Kind of defeats the purpose of the feelings during the wait.
We can only understand feelings as they pertain to us now because we live in a physical exisitence.
The body is just a cavity or vessel.
How do we know that the spirit of soul will not feel when we die while we still exist in the physical realm?
Hard to determine this now and tell others.
Only way to truly know is upon death?
Exactly, my underlying point though-out. How do we know there even is a soul? How does anyone alive know what happens when we die? Anyone that tells you they do know, is either delusional or a flat-out conman to me are the only logical conclusions. Any books that claim to know, are only as good as any other fiction of it's period. Especially the one's called 'scriptures', that contain contradictions and false claims though out them. They're not even any good as literature really.
This is about belief and faith and what resides in ones's heart and how they show the content of their heart by the way they live their life.
The heart is the doorway to faith and belief in God.
Without it wide open, a person will never fully grasp the nature of faith and spirituality in a relationship with God.
Yes, many scriptures have been corrupted by man and they have attributed to God what He never said, so it is difficult for people to truly understand a correct way for faith.
The only way to ge the correct way is to pray directly to God for it.
Man can only lead the way to God so far and he can also do great damage as well thinking he has the answears for the way to God.
Faith comes from a very personal relatrionship with God. He asks us for this, to make it personal.
This is what makes the difference in faith to me.
"And there are certainly, among the Jews and Christians, those who believe in Allah(God) and in that which has been revealed to you (Quran), and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before Allah. They do not sell the verses of Allah for a little price, for them is a reward with thier Lord. Surely, Allah is Swift in account." Quran Chap 3 Verse 199
My enlighted colleague; more beneficial replies to your queries would have been made supposing you quoted relevant portions of the Islamic texts as I did above. Note that the sources of Islamic legislation is the Quran ( the complete word of Allah) and the sunnah/hadith ( the sayings and actions of Prophet Muhammad in explaining the religion). The various sects you were refering to is as a result of deviating from these 2 major sources of legislation. You could arm yourself with a copy of the Quran and Hadith books (Sahih Al Bukhari and Muslim(for a start)). This would assist you challenge/ confirm anything someone tells you about Islam.
Finally, was it God that personally told you His name is 'nature' and He is 'beautiful'? I want to get cogent references to call God with the names he gave Himself( I want to avoid a situation where God may sue me to court for ascribing a name which He did not give to Himself).
"He is Allah, the Creator, the Inventor of all things, the Bestower of Forms. To Him belong the Best Names. All that is in the heaven and the earth glorify Him. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise". Quran C59 V24
So a slam on Christianity now! Never a slam on the Jews though, those cretins of civilization who are bent as the so called holly books in their horror library tell them, to destroy Christianity whom they hate and make everyone bow down to the Jew! This country gives the state of Israel vast trillions of money gratis to carry their murderous attacks on Muslims and everyone else, making America pay for their murderous adventures. Bah humbug on the GD Jews!
Firstly, the Jews have had centuries of persecution where as the christians were typically the ones doing the persecuting. That aside, religion is a social sect that grants power to few and obedience from many. All religion is detrimental to our society and the more we progress out of this dogma the better off we all will be.
Religion is the reason there is no peace! The world would be so much better if everyone kept their religion to themselves! And I mean themselves,no churches no mosque no synagogues.
Is there any instance in world history where the absence of religion has been the reason for peace? Unless you have such instances it would be very difficult to convince people in that regards. Thanks
does the fact that violent crime in more secular countries is dramatically lower than it is in more pious countries count?
wow it's like the 1940's never left.
Christianity was designed as a means of social control. Slaves are to obey their masters, and no one is to resist secular or religious authority: One emperor is the representative of one god. Kings rule by divine will. The design was a pastiche of familiar elements, a blend of Judaism and the mystery religions.
Time blurs things like a children's game of whispers.
Two thousand years from now I can picture those silly Scientologists justifying the life and times of Ron L Hubbard with just as much faith and passion as all the children of Abraham justify their respective messiah(s) today.
Hopefully our real creators will let us know what is really going on by then... Just to shut us all up, at the very least.
Silly and speculative new-age fantasies without a shred of facts, just like the fiction about the Jesus and Mary Magdalene marriage, Illuminati, Masons, Templar's, Grails and any similar ear-tickling preaching that came as a result of people believing that "The Da Vinci Code" was a work of non-fiction.
agreed, all religion is fiction. though i quite enjoy the illuminati conspiracies lol
Ask her whether she thinks all religion is fiction. I don't think she will agree with you.
Freemasonry is fiction?
the walls keeping the roof up suggest not, but the mystique surrounding them is most certainly fictitious.
But the 'old school' type preaching is still OK? Do you believe everything the Bible says, and that it doesn't contradict itself? Or is that too (the Bible) at least partly a work of fiction?
All religions have links to ancient myths and ideas that were precursors to later developments. Non-western religions are willing to admit this without having to needlessly debunk faith or spirituality altogether.
You can link anything to something else. You can always connect dots that dont exist. And how do they have proof that the books were written by the Flavians? It is their research that says so. In the end, it does not matter whether Jesus was real or not. It is his teachings that matter. They are the same teachings of all major religions. It is about love, kindness, and caring.
How come christianity is the only faith trying so hard to miscredit it self ???
I think this is a precursor for destroying the 3 book religions, I have been suspect of this since I read a letter written over a hundred years ago, they intend to force all Jews to move to Israel then stir up war between the Jews and Arabs then once those two have destroyed themselves so they will bring more evidence out showing Christ is a fantasy, thus destroying all book religions, I often wonder why the Jews were allowed to take a majority of the worlds wealth and all the best weapons, well they will be outnumbered so need all that to start and fund the upcoming war, the Jews were setup, I find it very odd that a Jewish owned press is making sure we know that Jews control all the banks, politicians and media, this can only be to create resentment and now they have cut money off to us will lead to civil war making all Jews leave and go to Israel, even the making sure they reached the top of every thing including making sure they got Nobel no matter how false their science is, it is clear the Jews have been setup as a focus point of hate purely to force them all to the middle east to fight a war against Islam until both are dead. my guess is they were given nukes so they would use them, which means the Arabs have been secretly given them.
Anyway judging by how long this manipulation of us has been going on I would say that the ordinary people have been farmed for the last 4000 years. but I think this crash we have now is so that we blame the Jews and force them out so they can start this war of wars that will end up with a NWO with no religions.
are you implying no one will be able to practice any religion ever? or just that no countries will be able to adopt a specific religion that the whole nation must abide by? If its the latter, i'm perfectly fine with that, or rather prefer it.
I am implying nothing, it is a case of probability, the human life span is short, and the max influence any one human can have on events is about 60 years max, which means if all things were just one mans dream then things would change drastically over the course of say 5000 years, but they have not, the odds of this being natural are none existent so therefore it implies that an agenda is being forced, as it is being executed over a time span greater than any one life then the subjects(humans) cant notice it until they analyse many life spans worth of information, so from this I deduce we are being farmed, religion seems to have had its use in coalescing humans into a global force with fractions and now it is just a case of getting rid of those fractions, quite simple really and undetectable as long as it happens over a few human life spans.
Interesting. A lot to think about Galzu :)
The Biggest Mass Psychosis in History.
There is theatrical music constantly in the background during the documentary narration, interviews and voice overs. I could only take about 10min of all the continuous noise before it was just too much.
Reaffirmations of what I had already concluded upon, in regards to the story of religious origin.
If you are interested in learning the creationism of religion ie: Christianity & Judaism. More over if you aspire to understanding how different (but "similar") religions/faiths came to be... This documentary explains the concept of "engineered class war" (of public oppression & control) quite clearly and concisely.
Great Doc!
+1 For Sociological Evolution!
Thank You